Talk:Josef Mengele

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Contents

[edit] Display issues?

In the first part of the article (Early life, career, and education), the fourth sentence is displaying multi-national with a space between the i and o. I checked the actual article and there is no tags for this. Any ideas?

[edit] Doctor

While Dr. Mengele's degrees were revoked in 1964, he still is (and should be) referred to as Doctor, whether you like what he did or not. The universities of Frankfurt and Munchi had no grounds to revoke his degrees. There is no evidence that his college work was falsified or plagerized. The two universities revoked his degrees because it was the "politically correct" thing to do since he was a war criminal. Murderers can't simply be revoked or denied their degrees they earned simply because later in their life, they committed crimes.

i don't think it is up to this article to decide if the universities had no grounds to revoke his degrees. maybe they did so because his work was based on an unscientific worldview as much as because of his crimes. the work that earned him the degrees was closely connected to his later criminal research in auschwitz. trueblood 11:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mause he violated the Hippocratic Oath and used his knowledge in an unethical way, to harm rather than to heal. Violation of the Hippocratic Oath is a common ground for such revocation everywhere western medicine is practiced. There are other less famous cases where this has happened. It has nothing to do with the quality, or lack thereof, of the subject's med school work. It is rather a type of malpractice, with adjudication going further than just revocation of a license to practice, but revocation of the degree by the medical school that granted it. And beyond medical schools, every university retains the right to revoke any degree not only for fraudulent or sub-standard academic work, but via an "exceptional circumstances" clause that would be applied on a case by case basis. Finally-- when a degree is revoked, it's revoked. Mengele was no longer a doctor after his degrees illegitamate.

[edit] Revisionist History/Concealing Truth

In my opinion, this article does not put enough emphasis on Josef Mengele's intelligence, good-looks, and academic aptitude as a young man. It also does not contain the well-known fact that he was not loved, and borderline abused by his parents which may have explained, (but don't get me wrong, will never EXCUSE what he did at Auschwitz later in life). His status as a war hero in WW2 also deserves more explanation and credit. These facts are rarely, if ever spoken about by the mainstream media, and are encyclopedic as long as they can be substantiated in fact. If necessary I will cite my sources when editing this article, including the COURT TV website which has perhaps the most thorough and detailed biography of Dr. Mengele that I have ever seen posted online. The bottom line is what made Dr. Mengele so intriguing and different was that he was anything but the one-sided monster that his later atrocities garnered him infamy for (and deservedly so). The bottom line is, if a handsome, athletic, intelligent young man today gained a PhD at 24, plus an M.D. at 27, then forsakes a lucrative medical or academic career to join the military as a commissioned officer who volunteers for combat, plus peformes heroic acts of bravery (pulling 2 men out of a burning tank, deep behind Soviet lines, under enemy fire), and survives, only to be awarded some of the most prestigious military awards of the era, comparable to the U.S. Purple Heart, Silver Star, and Distinguished Service Cross, he would be plastered over the media and worshipped as a war hero in modern society. This was a complex man who deserves a complex biography, detailing both his acts of good and evil. I am including these positive aspects of Mengele's life in order to give a full perspective on the man, and NOT in any means to excuse his crimes. Hate is easy to marginalize when its perpetrated by a bunch of drunk, undeducated skinheads talking in a bar about why the world is terrible because of certain races. Its tougher and more thought provoking when educated heroes sink to the levels that they do in order to achieve those ends. There is more to this man's story than is currently in the article. When I post the positive FACTUAL data about Mengele's life, please stop editing it out. This article should reflect both Mengele's good and evil sides, and the reader should be able to make up their own minds about him and why he did what he did. Stereotypes are easy to throw around, but the deeper truth is harder to palate. This article should be about EVIL, but lets be fair and balanced about it.


In my opinion this article is not about "GOOD and EVIL" , but about relevant information about a major war criminal of wwII. this article needs a good clean up. the evaluation of mengele from the auschwitz authorities is horrible and as useless as some nazi propaganda in a article about wwII. how about a quote from some survivor who experienced him on the job at the ramp doing selection. the article could do a better job explaining what the selection mean and what implications it had for the victims also frankly i don't quite get your point about heroic acts of bravery, he saved two people in the war you say, so what. that's rather thin on the plus side for somebody who is responsible for the death of thousands. and don't forget in which war he won his medals in. i fail to see much of mengeles good sides that the article should reflect trueblood 20:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The deed that he won that Iron Cross for is well documented. It is a historical fact and deserves mention. You are one of the revisionist people I was talking about obviously.

Why don't give a reference for this fact. I don't understand what you mean by revisionist. I thought that term is usually reseverd for people that deny the holocaust, like that quote from the ausschwitz administration came from a revisionist web page. I don't want to see mengele described as a demon but just what he did. so far this article somewhat tried to paint a positive picture as far as possible. the fact that he was awarded in this war does not hint to a positive side but fits in smoothly with his later deeds, as does the topic of his 'brilliant' academic career.trueblood 11:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I added the quote you wanted. I'm not including any of this to show a "positive" side of Mengele, but to highlight the complexity of this individual. Again, one of the reasons Mengele is such an intriguing historical figure is because he tends not to fit the norm of the typical hatemonger. It is important to note how many other infamous Nazis such as Eichmann, Amon Goeth from Schindler's List, Himmler (a former chicken farmer), and even Hitler himself had lives marred with failures prior to them becoming involved with the Nazi bureaucracy. Mengele's enormous intellect and potential, combined with his fits of kindness (such as with the troupe of dwarves), makes his evil deeds all that more shocking. I think you and I both agree that Mengele was an evil person, and i'm not trying to "prop him up", just adding facts about his life to give a full picture of the man.

where are you taking all this stuff about mengele's enormous intellect from. i must admit i don't give a lot on the court tv bio. it is written by a journalist not a historian, it's main purpose i almost want to say is to entertain, not to inform. it's rather sensational.as for mengele's intellect, he subscribed to complete bogus science and performed absurd experiments not just from an ethical but from a scientific point of view.trueblood 19:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

He earned an M.D. and a Ph.D. from two of the most prestigious universities in Europe at the time, both recieved before he was 28 years old. I think that certainly says something about his intellect. I'm not saying he was a genius, he obviously wasn't, but he did have a lot more education than your average SS officer.

[edit] Bad Link Discrepancy

The link to his mother Walburga redirects to to Saint Walpurga, who lived 1300 years ago. 81.208.83.222


[edit] Spam

The first part of the article, and even throughout it, has been spammed. Don't get me wrong, I believe that this man was evil, but spamming his wikipedia article is not the proper way to display your disgust. I would change it, but I don't know what it had said. -Andrew Markiewicz


[edit] Early life wording

Mengele in a car and went to the car and was so was born in Günzburg, Germany,...

This obviously needs to be fixed. I would, but I'm not even sure what it's supposed to be saying - was he born in a car on it's way towards Gunzburg? Can anybody clean this up? Cat Parade 19:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronouncing Mengele's name

Is it a hard or soft 'g' sound? -Mr. Tachyon

My teacher pronounces his name "men-GEL-ee" Link9er 15:34, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I've always heard it pronounced "Men-gel-ah".

"ng" is one sound, the "g" isn't pronounced separately. It's something like "ME-nge-leh" or IPA [ˈmeŋeˌle] (primary stress on first syllable). I'm German and I'm certain about this pronunciation.--87.162.46.132 02:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What if Mengele was paid off?

There's no denying that after WWII the Allies paid of the Japanese mad doctor of Unit 731 Shiro Ishii in exchange for all his biological and chemical tests on live human subjects. So isn't it suspicious that the "efforts" of the Allies failed to find Joseph Mengele despite their multiple successes at capturing other top war criminals?

We can agree that the tests of Mengele were the sickest crimes against humanity BUT his data collected was invaluble nonetheless. That's why I believe the Angel of Death was paid off secretly by the Allies, like the doctors of Unit 731, and all efforts to hunt him down was minimized. --Secret Agent Man 17:19, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since I worked on Josef Mengele on a scientific basis, I revised the Mengele-biography. Several errrors corrected and some new information added. For information on my person and my book on the subject (for those who read German) at http://www.josef-mengele.de --Cellarius 09:55, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wondering what he did between 1949 and 1979 in south-america? working? how was he financed? MJanich

As far as I know he performed abortions for a living. Philwelch 22:00, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Are you joking? Kent Wang 06:38, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Any facts to back that up Philwelch? That would be one hell of a contribution to the article. --Arm
Couldn't have - since it's not true. Information on where his funds came from added. --Cellarius 09:55, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes it is true here is a page about it.

http://www.lifedynamics.com/DeathCamps/Holocaust1.cfm

Mengele an Abortionist, Argentine Files Suggest, New York Times, February 11, 1992, Nathaniel C. Nash, page A8. I'm sure such astute researchers could find 'Mengele AND abortionist' in any decent public library's online databases. You don't consider the New York Times 'some ridiculous pro-life site,' do you? -BeLoverly

The page of the German historical Museum [1] states he was sentenced to lifelong imprisonment in the Nuremberg doctors' trial. Include this in the article or not? Get-back-world-respect 15:07, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How could he be sentenced to life in prison if he escaped Europe and was living in South America? --Arm
In absentia. - Nunh-huh 07:26, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
The information on Mengele provided by the DHM is more than faulty. The current version will be revised in the next weeks. Mengele was never tried, not even in absentia. --Cellarius 09:55, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Exactly. Check the trial proceedings (first part) and trial proceedings (second part): Mengele was not tried in the Doctors' Trial. AFAIK, he was never tried at all. I've removed that sentence. Lupo 15:13, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if anyone has noticed, but if the second link under the External Links section, "A timeline of his life", is accessed, 2 popups windows appear. The guidelines set out in Wikipedia state that it's advisable to warn people of the popup windows. Would it be better to delete the link in question and provide another one with similiar information? I'm happy to do this. --Rjwd 04:08, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The article states, "Almost all of Mengele's experiments were of dubious scientific value." Are there any that weren't?

Probably none of Mengele's experiments, but it is important to note that some of the military science experiments carried out at other camps, such as Dachau, although barbaric and cruel, had some scientific and medical merit. These were mainly carried out by the Luftwaffe in order to help save pilots in different circumstances, such as being shot down over cold water or having to bail out. These included subjecting victims to extreme temperatures such as ice baths for extended periods of time, then reviving them. If i'm not mistaken, the current medically accepted method for treating hypothermia was derived from one of these Nazi experiments. Other experiments with altitude chambers helped to illustrate the effects of hypoxia and pressure changes at extreme altitudes on the human body. Again, these experiments inflicted great pain and suffering on innocent victims and are in no way justified, but data was gathered, and I believe it was used for some good. If anyone else knows about this please chime in and let me know, or correct any errors.

[edit] mention slayer?

To me it does not look sensible to mention a band which refers to Mengele in a song. This page is about the person Mengele not about where he was mentioned, I think. What is your opinion on this? Besserwissi 17:14, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article has a section called "In film and literature", so I guess mentioning the Slayer song there is ok if I add music to the section title? I'll do that. --Kerror 16:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Besserwissi above. I don't like adding stuff like this to a serious article. I think it detracts rather than adds to the article's value. --Guinnog 16:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

I'm just interested, are there standards on Wikipedia for when to use a first name or a last name, or both, including a title, etc. These things can add a certain tone to any article so I think it's a pertinant question.

[edit] Copyright

thumb|right|Josef Mengele

This photo was added but it does not disclose Copyright details. I'm reverting to the previous photo.--AI 22:45, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

http://www.gesch.med.uni-erlangen.de/gewissen/ausstell

[edit] Gynecology?

I seem to remember hearing that Mengele contributed greatly to gynecology. Can anyone confirm or deny this? -GregoryWeir 16:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Mengele made no contributions whatsoever to medical science. He was nothing but a butcher.

--In that case shouldn't the article address the popular myth that some of Mengele's experiments contributed great things to human knowledge? So many people seem to believe this. Could someone who knows better than I do try and refute (or support?) this claim?

Such as? Link9er 15:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
How gruesome his work may have been, it did contribute to the understanding of genetics. Lord Metroid 11:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My Changes to the Article

Good afternoon I just wanted to say I am from the São Paolo area of Brasil pretty close to where Dr. Mengele was living before he died I just made some minor changes to the article such as the more precise location of his exile. I mean we have São Paolo "State" (which is huge like 40m people) and São Paolo "City" just like you guys have New York State and New York City so it's more accurate to say that he was living in Embu Brazil which is a city about 40 km West-South West of São Paolo city. Embu is really really cool and is known around here for its artistic community. Also I remember that when he drowned he wasn't swimming in the ocean which is more like like the beaches south and east of São Paolo but the beach in Embu is more like a bay or inlet type thing.

I think it's important to know that he pretty much lived openly in Brazil among his friends at least and was said to have liked it here for its tranquil and friendly attitude (as does everyone actually). In response to an above user he didn't always work at medical jobs I know that he was a factory supervisor in southern Brazil in the early 1970s for instance. I have a minor personal tie in to this since one of my (girl)friends claims to have met him when she was a little girl. Her family is of German descent and her father was a pretty bad guy overall. And there are a lot of Germans here in São Paolo region I mean they even have their own newspaper here printed in German.

Just thought i'd add local perspective to this please let me know if you all have any discussions.Wiki brah 20:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I find it rather shocking that anyone knowing who he was failed to report him to the authorities. This is a very deep shame on the people of Embu.

WHERE DID YOU FIND YOUR INFORMATION REGARDING MENGELE'S DAUGHTER???

It was from certain letters seized in Brazil in 1985. Then rediscovered amongst files held in Sao Paolo in 2004.

[edit] Death

What exactly killed this guy? It said in the link that he died an accidental death, but does anyone know what specifically killed him?

Article states that he died from a stroke while swimming (he ended up drowning). Flyerhell 09:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know what evidence there is for the fact he actually had a stroke? Was a full autopsy done? Who conducted it? Etc etc... I'm just wondering because given who we are talking about, it wouldn't seem surprising if he was murdered/extrajudicially executed. We would probably never know since one would expect even if a full autotopsy were done, there is a good chance they weren't looking for drugs that could have been used to induce a stroke for example and other shortcomings not uncommong when a murder is completely not expected Nil Einne 13:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Mengele's alleged daughter

The article contains the following claim: "...Mengele has a daughter born to an Australian woman of German lineage after a liaison between the two when the woman, aged 23, visited the German Colony Colonia Independencia in Paraguay in mid-1960 along with her mother and brother..." What is the specific source for this claim? Is it a reliable source? Has it been verified? Is this reliable information? It is really necessary to supply a reference on this point. I have never read any such claim about Mengele in any other biography. Unsubstantiated internet gossip (of which there is plenty in this regard)can't be represented as fact.

'In 1939, Mengele married his first wife, Sofie Shoinbaeum-Edelstein, from which union issued a single offspring, Rebecca ("Becky") Edelstein who resides to this day in Los Angeles.' ... can somebody clarify this? Was it not Irene Schoenbein who he married in 1939?

[edit] Mengele - A"Nazi Leader"?

Can Mengele be accurately categorized as a "Nazi leader"? He wasn't exactly part of the core leadership of the Nazi state. -Kingsbury 20:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

i agree, mengele was not a Nazi leader, war criminal might be more helpful categorytrueblood 21:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personally selected over 400000 ...

I don't think this is phrased correctly. It sounds a bit like he personally chose, one by one, 400,000 individuals in 21 months. Surely he must have chosen certain critera, or selected blocks of individuals, for otherwise choosing people to die 12 hours a day for 21 months of about 30 days (i.e. 400 000 / (21 * 30 * 12) = 53) he would have been choosing one person a minute 7 days a week for nearly two years. I don't have particular historical knowledge of this evil man. Could someone correct this? i.e., explain the selection process very briefly, or change it to "supervised" or "was ultimately responsible for ...". Sorry to be picky about such an issue, but any engineer reading that statement immediately reaches for his trusty HP calculator to see if it is reasonable.

What does the word "selected" mean in this context?

When the trains would come into Auschwitz, the people were lined up and separated, the fit were sent to slave labor, and the people who were unfit for labor were sent to be killed,that process was called the selection. Mengele was responsible for the selection at Auschwitz, and with the point of his finger sent over 400,000 Jews to their deaths.

Not only jews! That phrase don´t do justice to the "forgotten victims" like homosexuals, sinti and roma, gypsys and so on.

[edit] Mengele and the selection of 400,000

Mengele alone did not select 400,000 victims for the gas chambers. The following civilian and SS doctors also served at Auschwitz with Mengele and are known to have, or were likely to have participated in selections:

Dr Carl Clauberg Dr Arnold Dohmen SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Friedrich - Karl Entress Dr Kurt Gutzeit SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Willy Jobst SS Obersturmführer Dr Bruno Kitt SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Fritz Klein SS Untersturmführer Dr Hans - Wilhelm König SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Eduard Krebsbach SS Untersturmführer Dr Johannes Kremer SS Obersturmführer Dr Franz Lucas Female SS Oberaufseherinen Dr Maria Mandel SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Josef Mengele SS Obersturmführer Dr Hans Munch SS Obersturmführer Dr Werner Rohde SS Sturmbannführer Dr Horst Schumann SS Obersturmführer Dr Horst Thilo SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Alfred Trzebinski SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Helmuth Vetter SS Hauptsturmführer Dr Eduard Wirths


Kingsbury 23:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


Anon. Comment:

I read about everything is about WWII i can get my hands on, esspecially what happend to the nazi war criminals, and i must say, this is the first time i see somebody wants not to be omitted the qualities of J. Mengele! i find this simplly outrageous! however, i am not surprised. if only after e few years after the ending of the war, people not only didn't care anymore what happend to those horrible people who one way or another managed to escape Germany and lived a nice, simple life in some warm, most likely comunist cuntry, but also started to think and to persuade others tahat the nazi atrocities were...exagerated! and the poor nazi 'war heroes' were being thought at as if they were evil, or criminals... if this things were happening after only 7-10 years after the war, what can we espect today, after more than 50 years?

i can't understand how the 'good side' of this vicious murderers can even come in question! i don't know who wrote the first comment here, but you should understand that thise ...people (if we can call them so) killed millions of people, only because they were not germans, or because they were jews, gipseys, hungarian, pole, czech, etc. mengele&co choosed what they wnted to do in their lives, they choosed to be nazi and they choosed to kill inocent people! you sy we should not 'omit' Mengele's intelligence; what intellgence?? IS his passionate belief in the superiority of the scandinavians? How can an intelligent human being belive that the other nations must be eliminated? sombody here said he was paid off by the Allies for his... research... do you know what he was doing in Auschwitz? His main goal was that of obteining on artificial ways blond and blue-eyed children.he was the one who in 1944 decided who among the thousands of hungarians from Auschwitz would die and who waould live. As far as i know, he especially hated the gipseys -perhaps because he looked like one- and he masacrated them.

my deepest sorrow concerning mengele's life -exept the fact that he had one in the first place- is that he was not found and that he died as a free man. i like to thik it's true that he became more an more obsessed of his hunters and even paranoid in his late years. i also hope he had a miserable life in South America...

i'd like to conclude with annother hope: that we will no longer foerget history's role, that of constantly remembering us what truly happend. we must not ever alloud us to forget... we must allways remember!!!

Firstly you're responding to the wrong section, you should respond to the right section so people know what you're talking about. Secondly, please learn to format your message properly. The way you've formatted it makes it very difficult to read.
Okay in response to what you're saying well, firstly, while I didn't write the early message, I agree with it more then I agree with you. Whether you like it or not, most of the people reponsible for the atrocities are not one dimensional villans who are a manifestation of pure evil as some people like to believe and that is common of villians on TV. Most of them are fairly complex characters. It is important to understand these complexities. For example Hitler's vegetarinism and the reasons he choose it are rather interesting and reveal this man commonly seen as the ultimate manisetation of pure evil is not as simple as many seem to like to believe. Censoring or hiding these complexities simply because you wish to think of these people as one dimensional evil people is unnacceptable and harmful. Only when we understand history can we avoid repeating it. Treating the people involved as evil villians full stop stops us from properly understanding history. IMHO, this is a great offense to the many many victims of the holocaust. They're deaths, as with their the deaths of many people all over the world can at least have some positives if we learn from their deaths. Sadly, for whatever reason, some people don't appear to want to learn anything. Nil Einne 13:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC) Hitler was in world war 6

[edit] Hitler’s diaries??

I have difficulties with the quotes in the article from Hitler’s diaries (Hitler came into direct telephonic contact with Mengele many times. In his diaries he reveals: "No man is closer to my heart at the moment than this obscure KZ Lager physician, Herr Gnädiger Doktor Josef Mengele, who embodies every ideal of German manhood I have ever imagined in my life. I feel that I owe my life to him. Certainly all German people do owe their lives to him until the war ends.").

As far as I know “Hitler’s Diaries” is a known hoax. This quote could not be genuine. Also, why would Hitler believe the he (and the German people) owes his life to a lowly concentration-camp doctor? That the two of them were responsible for monstrous crimes against humanity does not mean that they’ve met or developed a personal relationship. I’ve never heard any evidence other than this supposed diary entry that would suggest this relationship. Dr. Death was what they called him.

I agree, Hitler's diaries were a hoax, the quotation should be removed

[edit] some text identical to referenced link

A good deal of the article text is identical to the text in the article (linked!) at The Crime Library[2]. The Crime Library article has a named author[3] but Wikipedia is not listed in the bibliography[4]. TCL contains copyrighted material which is why I am noting it here. If this is an issue, someone may like to look into it.

[edit] Introduction

i think the introduction needs a rewrite. it should mention ss membership, his exact position in auschwitz, a sentence or two about the selection , his experiments and the ideology they were based on. his escape two south america and accidental death, name angel of death.

the whole sentence : " This demented effort caused him to work virtually twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, while he pursued his extensive experimentations and carried out his heavily burdensome duties as medical doctor" is just plain weird.

i find the attributed quote not helpful and neither the reference to hitler's 'big lie'. more important is his racist ideology that he based his pseudo scientific research on.

ah and his nickname was beppo, very charming that. trueblood 22:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

i deleted : -the quotation and the big lie, because it sounds somewhat unlikely. at least mengele probably believed in what he was doing, this sounds more like something from machiavelli. if someone wants it back, it needs to be referenced

[edit] second and third section

the second section is lenghty and contains unnecessary information (his disease) maybe his university career could be put in the third section under another headline that discribes his involvement with the nazi movement (memebership of stahlhelm,nsdap, ss) as well as his ideological development. the link between what it meant to study anthropology in nazi germany and with that tutor and his later twin research should be made clear. military service should be mentioned but the whole paragraph about his war bravery is somewhat misleading. trueblood 22:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] deleted quote from holocaust denial link

i just deleted for the second time a section that is out of place, misleading and from a sort of holocaust denial web page that for instance also runs it's own holocaust cartoon contest. check out the cartoons. please don't revert this deletion. trueblood 23:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC) "The German delousing chambers with only minor modifications -- and the large railroad tunnels without any modification at all -- would have served the purpose of mass murder perfectly well, but they were used only to keep people alive. The great killer was disease. The Degesch delousing chambers, the railroad delousing tunnels, and Zyklon B were essential to keeping disease, especially typhus, under control." a little quote from the same web page... trueblood 23:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

i deleted first and second chapter headings: because the chapter military career contains other information as well. also his military career is simply not relevant enough to be in need of an own paragraph. lots of people spend time in the army, needs mentioning okay but if it is through something else that they become famous, mentioning is enough. trueblood 10:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind giving us the link to that web page/article? Id like to see the entire text instead of having to judge it based on half a paragraph. Besides, can't exactly say I'm not curious about what you call a holocaust cartoon contest... JaneDOA

[edit] auschwitz section

i wanted to clearify mengeles work in ausschwitz a little bit, particulary that his interest in twins was to be seen in context with his earlier academic work. took two sentences off, one about the nazis being desperate in the difficult days of '44, it seems there other people than nazis whose days were difficult and desperate. second one about mengele being a cult figure with himmler and hitler, which logically did not belong where it was and i wonder if it is a late echo of the deleted fake hitler diary quote trueblood 15:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC) some other changes i made: took out a sentence about the gypsies/ roma because it was twice in the article. Furthermore why mention the hyppocratic oath here, that would be true for any physician.

i also would like to take off the boiling water and sewing together thing unless someone can verify that. trueblood 14:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the oath must be there for emphasis. JaneDOA

[edit] Ovitz family

I took off some confused sounding sentences (and what seemed to me another try to twist some information to make it sound somewhat positive). According to wikipedia article Mengele did not found the Lilliput troupe, that's what they called themselves. trueblood 14:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] changes in after war section

i deleted:

-the bit about his daughter he never met : because it is just not relevant enough, all this schmu about his deep emotional pain through this loss. please let's be a little bit more tactful. it almost sounds like someone is trying to make fun of his victims.

- nazi leader category because he was not a nazi leader

-a quote and link from a ridiculous pro life site about mengele performing abortions after the war. trueblood 09:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] further pruning

i just looked at the german and the french article and like the some much better for being shorter. i'll try to prune some surplus bits.trueblood 20:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more pruning

took of again this medal thing. the reference to court tv is not satisfactory. the whole article at the crime library is more about story telling then anything else. it contains several errors. to reinstall it it needs a better reference. trueblood 20:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] please do not just revert pruning

tried some more shortening of the auschwitz paragraph. i think an article does not necessarily benefit from length. we want all the relevant information. do we need to know that he spent six months in some gebirgsjaeger regiment or the name of the guy that found his body? trueblood 21:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopædia; it is intended to be information-rich!
—StationaryTraveller 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

yep, you are right, but you also want to make sure that the really relevant information reaches the reader and does not get lost in a sea of random bits of trivia. oh and look at this quote from the wiki article about encyclopedias.

"an encyclopedia treats each subject in more depth and conveys the most relevant accumulated knowledge on that subject or discipline" trueblood 19:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

ah but who decides what is most relevant? Mapetite526 21:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

got me there, how about for a guideline look at other encyclopedias, see what leave out and what not? but after all, since everybody can change everything it is everybody who decides. i just decided to loose a seminal harcore band from i forgot that wrote a song about mengele... trueblood 21:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In fiction

We could add mention of the Star Trek: Voyager episode Nothing Human, which featured a holographic simulation of the Cardassian Dr. Moset—an obvious parody of Josef Mengele.
—StationaryTraveller 22:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC) please don't, see above trueblood 11:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please avoid renegade editing

Significant changes should be discussed back here, before being made. Also, try to make the Talk headings meaningful. "My changes" and such, don't tell us much, when we're looking to see if something has been (or is being) discussed.
—StationaryTraveller 23:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] noma in auschwitz section

i don't agree with the recent change, a racist he was, no need to cloud his intentions in pc language. trueblood 11:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] no withwash

the recent edit was just withwash, so i reverted it, i think it is important to state that mengele performed the selections in auschwitz. and why not call what he did crimes. trueblood 18:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

pls read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view --Haham hanuka 21:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

please clarify where exactly the npov policy supports your change. can we call the people that got tried for war crimes in nurnberg war criminals? and the people that got away we can't? and i don't understand why replacing gas chamber with killed. can you give reasons? by the way you repeated the same changes as 62.0.103.95. any chance that it was you, that you signed out to do these changes. i mean there are all kinds of people at wikipedia with all kinds of tasks. you are making sure that people like eichmann, barbie and mengele are not called war criminals. good. respect [User:Trueblood|trueblood]] 06:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Dr."

I move that the title of Dr. be removed from this creatures name cheifly because the Universities of Munich and Frankfurt revoked his degrees in 1964. But also because Mengeles experiments were of no scientific value. SolitaryWolf 14:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

where does it say dr?trueblood 15:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Most of them have already been removed presumably by another wikipedian editor. However, one reference remains under the subtitle Auschwitz. SolitaryWolf 01:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not objective article

"But also because Mengeles experiments were of no scientific value."

Even though his monstrous experiments are imoral and unethical, you can not say there is no scientific value in his experiments. At the time the experiments were done, there was little knowledge on the fields Mengele studied. This is confirmed by the fact that several international agencies were very interested in the documents that were made of the experiments after the war.

In all, I think this article is too subjectively written. Which is not good for a encyclopedic piece. Try to keep to the facts. If his dr. title was taken away, don't argue about putting it in front of his name, just explain the situation in the article.

hm, what fields that mengele was studying are you refering to? his 'research' was based on a flawed racist worldview not just from a ethical point of view. today the category 'race' does not have any validity in modern science. as for the dr, if his doctor titles were really revoked in the sixties i don't see your problem there either. your fact (several international agencies) to me very much sounds like a urban legend, wanna quote some references for that?[User:Trueblood|trueblood]] 18:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
1. "don't argue about putting it in front of his name" - I never was, quite the opposite 2. "Several international agencies" - what are you talking about? I never made that claim. Everything I have written was based on what I had read in the actual article prior to my posting. Nothing is based on a personal worldview or primary research, I will withdraw my comment on the "dubiousness" of his experiments if you like despite the actual claims of the article, but I will not withdraw what I have said about the title of doctor. Chiefly, because in accordance to this article his degrees were revoked in the 60s - For this reason I see no reason why he should be given the title of "Dr" throughout the article - it is 2006. If anything I'm disputing the articles architecture, not its factual integrity. Finally, I'll point out that I never made any alterations to the actual article, I merely put forth a point for discussion - SolitaryWolf 05:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Trying to claim this is "subjective" is ludicrous. Read Baumslag and Weindling for your answer. For example, Mengele injected dye into children's eyes to see if he could change their eye color. By no stretch of the imagination would that be an experiment of any scientific value. Mengele also removed organs and limbs just to see what would happen to the victims. Again, not a valid scientific experiment. Mengele would also shock people with increasingly higher voltages just to see what would happen, another invalid scientific experiment.207.69.137.34 23:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Horrible experiments but even so it did contribute to the knowledge of the body and heritage. Science does not work like this have value this have no value. Science or rather knowledge did increase if even so that this is no good to do to a person or this is how much a person can take of this before it dies. Knowledge is only knowledge, knowledge doesn't have value in itself but only when it then is applied it gains valuable information to the application. Lord Metroid 18:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] deleted major additions

i deleted the whole postwar additions, whoever wants to publish a trash novel on mengele's postwar life should do it somewhere else.trueblood 18:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grandson link?

Why is there an external link to Josef Mengele's grandson's Youtube page? It dosen't seem to have any value to the article. -Kerplunk- 22:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on this, but I just wanted to say I think his grandson is funny as hell. But he never speaks about his grandfather. Neither does any living Mengele family member. --Arislan 10:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, now that I think about it, I think the deletion of a link relevant to the subject of an article should be discussed.--Arislan 21:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I vote for the YouTube link to be deleted. It seems to add very little to the article.--Tabun1015 19:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

In the above discussion "mention slayer", the user 'Besserwissi' stated:

  • "To me it does not look sensible to mention a band which refers to Mengele in a song. This page is about the person Mengele not about where he was mentioned, I think. What is your opinion on this? Besserwissi 17:14, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)"


Another user, 'Guinnog', agreed. I can see where you are coming from and that's fair enough. However, if this is a "page is about the person Mengele not about where he was mentioned" then why is one of the 'In film and literature' enteries allowed to be:

  • "Mengele is briefly mentioned in Elie Wiesel's book Night."


That contradicts 'Besserwissi's very guidelines for that section. So I proposed it is either removed or the title be changed to allow musical references as well. Besides, I think a song written entirely about Josef Mengele is more worthy of being on the list than something that 'briefly mentions' him.


~ Brettus.

baby, slayer and elie wiesel are just not in the same category. night is the account of someone who survived auschwitz, it is world literature. slayer on the other hand, if you wandered what slayer's cultural relevance outside metal fan circles, um i'd say none.

trueblood 21:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


> Oh, I'm not part of the Slayer argument, I don't even know what song that is. I'm purely pointing out that according to 'Besserwissi's guidelines for that section, that that piece of trivia shouldn't be there. It's supposedly a page "about the person Mengele not about where he was mentioned", and that very trivia entry says "briefly mentioned". You see what I'm saying yeah?

~ Brettus. 29/01/07

I not part of the slayer argument but I think that Mengele should be mentioned more and he is just mentioned a couple of times. But if you visit this page please visit my page. Click Here

           ~Doglover2352~

[edit] In film and literature examples

The example I added here, regarding Mengele being mentioned in the movie "Anatomy", has been removed for the second time. If something like that isn't considered notable enough to be mentioned here, that is fine, but I don't see how that is any less relevant than most of the other items on this list which give mentions of Mengele in fiction, especially examples that claim that a certain character might be "based off of" Mengele (such as the references to "Marathon Man" and "Time's Arrow"). If my example isn't included, that's okay with me, but then I think that other, less relevant, examples should also be considered for removal. Has anyone created any guidelines for what should and shouldn't be included in sections such as this? If not, then I think that they should be discussed, since "Trivia" and "In fiction" sections can be a large gray area.--Tabun1015 14:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

mengele is important enough to the plots of both time's arrow and marathon man that his name is mentioned in the wiki articles. both books are actually about the holocaust or about mengeles life , and so are all other references. trueblood 07:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok--Tabun1015 16:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re. repeat deletions of "Camouflage" novel

The novel "Camouflage" has been repeatedly deleted from the literary references section, with no rational explanation. The novel is noteworthy, as it won the best novel of the year award from science fiction's most prestigious awards, the Nebulas, a couple years ago, and was written by a multiple award-winning and best-selling author. The reference is also far more direct than most of the other literary references, most of which indicate Mengele is briefly mentioned, or that a character is or might possibly be modeled after him, while he appears directly as a character in Camouflage and one of the main characters interacts with him over a period of years, including before, during, and after WWII. If anyone wants to forward a rational reason why Camouflage shouldn't be listed, please lay out the explanation here for discussion prior to another deletion. Thanks. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/w:s) 20:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Slayer controversy - mention or not?

I have added a section regarding the Slayer's song Angel of Death. I think that, despite it is a serious article, it can be mentioned here if an information regarding the song's controversy of alleged lack of condemnation is added as I did when writing a section.

[edit] Incomplete?

Why is there so little about his military service on the eastern front? Was he awarded these medals for Propaganda/Political Reasons or did he legitimately earn them? If he did in fact go above and beyond the call of duty (no matter who he fought for) what were his actions? I feel this is relevant because the whole point of reading the article is to get a sense of mengele as a man. If we portray him solely as a monster don't we run the risk of repeating history? If only monsters commit atrocities then we cannot recognize potential for evil in men. Also very little about his post WW2 life and death surley what he did after the fall of berlin is just as important as before.

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