Talk:José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero/Archive 2

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Talk:José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero/Archive 1


Wikipedia members from outside Spain must be cautious with anti-Zapatero writtings as shown above. After the defeat of the PP in last general elections, youths of the PP has created large rings of blogs and web sites with all kind of missinformations (some of them just in the border of being considered just a libel). With reference to the suicide bombers, the only reference to this matter conected with the bombings was the following: "According with unidentified sources, the terrorist atack could had been carried out by suicidal bombers, we repeat, the sources have not been confirmed, and this information is not sure" (cadena SER, main radio station of Spain, supposed to be friendly with Socialist Party). This comment on the news has been broadly used by PP members in order to generate confussion and getting rid of any political responsability due to the missinformation provided by the PP´s government in those sad days.

Contents

I would not trust the article too much either, too much fanatism prevents the truth from being seen

I am sorry to say that you have just demonstrated to be a victim of the Socialist propaganda. (Please, do not interpret this as something offensive.) You must understand that political parties (right-wing and left-wing) usually form "curious" alliances with powerful economic groups.
Everybody "knows" that the powerful PRISA media group (owned by Polanco) enjoys more or less "hidden" ties with the Spanish Socialist Party. I presume you are Spanish so I'm sure you must know that Canal+ (which belongs to PRISA) has got the right to broadcast without codifying anything. And I presumed that you do not know (or, at least, you do not remeber) that in September 2004 a Spanish Government official announced the intention (later forgotten) of banning the price discounts affecting textbooks for children (curiously enough one of the most important Spanish textbook publishers is Santillana, which belongs to the PRISA group).
With all this I am trying to explain that you cannot trust 100% Spanish media like El País, the Cadena SER, Canal+ and so on (no media in general can be trust 100% by the way). I would dare to beg you to widen your sources of information. Because too many intentional falseties are being said in Spain with a real bad intention. In my opinion, it is all the Spaniards' duty to prevent the return of the hate which caused that terrible conflict so many years ago, but that is too much remembered today.
After this long foreword, I must say that you are completely wrong with the thing about the suicide bombers. According to Pedro J. Ramírez (the editor of El Mundo, one of the three or four most important papers in Spain) Zaptero told him that bodies of suicide bombers had been found in the remains of the trains (that is, not the SER, Zapatero himself). (The information is included in a book by Casmiro García Abadillo, a famous Spanish journalist who also works for El Mundo.) When he was asked in the Committee of Investigation about that claim he answered:
"Hablé con directores de medios de comunicación para valorar el alcance de la tragedia y para referirme a los extremos de valoración de lo que suponía las posibilidades de autoría. Pude valorar toda la información que existía entonces. Pero no puedo recordar con toda su exactitud las conversaciones".
That is, Zapatero said he talked with the mass media media directors about who could have committed the attacks but he does not deny outrightly that he had affirmed, with no place for doubt, the existence of suicide bombers (a piece of data proved false and in favor of which never existed any evidence).
That was what happened and that is what is known (and that was what I tryed tor reflect in the article, where I also include the source [1], yes I know that Libertad Digital is right-wing but that was the best I could found, a lot of other similar sources can be found using Google)
I did not know until now that thing about the SER, but I hope I have been able to transmit to you that the problem is a little more complicated.
Please, do not allow anybody to make use of your good faith again. Think for yourself! Zapatancas (UTC)

Non accurate info on the last european elections

The current article says that: "The Socialist Party won again with 25 seats against 24 for the People's Party (out of 54). Although José Borrell was the official candidate, Zapatero played an important role in that campaign (as is usual in Spain). The new triumph seemed to dissipate the doubts about the causes of his previous victory, though the Socialist victory was exceptionally narrow."

The last entailment about dissipating the doubts is very weak. In fact, the information is not completely true, since of the 25 seats obtained by the Socialist Party, one was agreed with Ecologists that, after obtaining the seats in the election, separated from the Socialist group as previously agreed. So, strictly speaking there was 24 seats for the Socialist Party and 24 for the People's Party. This kind of biased and unnecesary entailments should be removed from prestigious efforts as the Wikipedia, especially for events as controversial as the 11-M, for which there is still a lot of unclear elements.


Be careful (second part)

It is funny to discover that the concept of objectiviness is supported under the following argument: "you are intoxicated by socialist propaganda". I warn Wikipedia users not to put confidence in any statement only contrasted by a source like "libertad Digital". Since the defeat of Peoples Party it has been clearly detected the following political action. Libertad Digital (a web only news paper) takes the news only from agencies, then they add extremely right wing opinions to the agency, then the web rings, forums, chats, etc... of the youths of the peoples party, start spreading just the opinion, and write in every foro they can get. After that they show to their principals their merits. So, I advice you that any information based only in the a/m media not to be considered as reliable unless it can be founded in other sources of information. If not, wikipedia is at risk of falling in stupid strategies of a political party, which I do not suppose to be the aim of this media. The matter of the suicide bombers is a very good example of a posible missinformation. Check the answer given by Zatapancas, and consider if this is an academical answer or just a political and disgusting justification.

Please, if the anonymous user who contributes from several IP addresses starting with 83. is the same person I would dare to bage him/her to create a wikipedia identity to help identify him/her.
I will assume it is really the same person, so the following is for him/her (or for them if I a, wrong):
First, a question: do you work for the Socialist Party. If you belong to the PSOE I respect you and I believe it is very positive to have a person like you providing his POV in this article (you have lots of it!!! and, as a little common sense makes clear, a NPOV article is the one that reflects all POVs). But, to make your work useful you must respect others' POVs also (and you must show more respect for objective facts).
I hope you are being paid for your funny contributions, because if not in my own humble opinion you will enjoy a lot becoming a grown-up (enjoy your adolescence) ;-). I have really enjoyed reading them. I would have laughed a lot if I were not in a public place when I did.
Please, be humbler when you make a mistake. I do not like either to recognize I have made a mistake, but it is so clear that you have been completely misled with the thing about the suicide bombers that an apology would be welcome (and would also made you feel better).
The thing about the People's Party youths is also very funny. Is it a joke or are you talking sincerily? If you are talking sincerely, you have been "informed" about it or the idea has occurred to you by yourself :-). In the second case you sound a little paranoid, but I would be intereseted in listening more about that thing of conspiratorial PP youths and all that.
Another question. You have defended that the Republican supporters during the sad Spanish Civil War fought for freedom, democracy and the Constituion. Well, that is the true. But, all of them? Because the POUM (a Republican party) , was exterminated in Catalonia in 1937 by other republicans. If they fought for freedom, why did they kill each other? Please, show me the truth. Show me the light. Show me the Darkness visible (as Freemasons say ;-)). 80.37.203.118 16:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Latest edits are not neutral

Please make edits neutral and not an attack against the article's subject. - Tεxτurε 15:36, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Zapatero and Freemasonry

A user has recently removed the paragraph about Zapatero's supposed belonging to Freemasonry. First of all, I would like to remember that being a Freemason is as bad as being homosexual, it depends on every person's opinion. So, it is absurd to interpret it as something negative.

I would also like to remember that that possibility has been exposed publicly by people like Ricardo de la Cierva, a famous (Right-wing) Spanish historian and nobody has contradicted them (including Zapatero). That provides some evidence (although non conclusive) about the problem we are treating now.

Not only that, some elements of Zapatero's behavior (for example his good relation with the French government, led by Chirac, a known Freemason) could be better explained if Zapatero were a Freemason. That added to his huge grandfather's influence (who were a Freemason) are other interesting links between Zapatero and Freemasonry.

It must not be forgotten that a lot of Spanish politicians are also Freemasons (Joaquín Leguina is an example) and a lot more are supposed to be (e.g. Gallardón, who is a famous PP leader), as well as other members of Spanish Society. It must not be seen as a taboo.

I believe this article must be as relevant as possible. And providing information about Zapatero's ideological background is always relevant. So I hope the information about Freemasonry will not be removed again. Zapatancas 17:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

International spelling

While articles have to either be US or international (British) they must not be both. An extremely important factor when an article is not obviously US or Brit/commonmwealth centred is which spelling did the article start out with. This article began with British spelling as you can see here. Somebody later on changed some of it to US spelling, and Zapatancas says this is what Spaniards allegedly use, which is not relevant as this is en.wikipedia, and that US is more internationalised, which is not true and certainly doesn't reflect wikipedia policy. Most if not all EU articles go for British spelling as British English is one of the 2 official languages of the EU, though what weighs the heaviest is the fact that the article began in British spelling and there is no consensus to change that, so indeed we must respect the original article spelling, SqueakBox 15:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I am happy that, for once, you have paid attention to something told to you and, at last, you recognize that mixing spellings is not allowed in the English language. The article has looked for a long time horribly due to your obsession with jumping from an option to the other in an unpredictable fashion.
I believe your problem is that you don't dominate any option, neither British nor American. Even though you are now obsessed with changing from an international to a local variant of the language, you keep using non-British forms of some words. For example, in your last attack you kept the word "unfavorable", because you do not know the correct British form is "unfavourable". If you have problems with your own spelling, why don't you let other users do the job you are unable to do? Wikipedia belongs to everybody. We cannot use all the time "SqueakBoxian" spelling only because that is easier to you.
Besides, the EU has many more than two official languages. Every language that is official in a member country is an official EU language. It seems that you have not realized that in Spain we have our own language. It is true that in some areas there are a lot of Britons who go on living as if they had not left Britain. But they are foreigners! Spaniards speak Spanish (some of them also speak Catalan, Basque and so on but that is not important now). Your argument that British English must be used because is the language used in Spain is kind of crazy.
So, learn to respect others' effort. You cannot force everybody to adapt to you. You must learn to live with other people. Zapatancas 09:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English. At the end of the day this asrticle began in British English, which is not a localised variety, and there is no reason to change it because one Spaniard has a pathological hatred of the British, SqueakBox 15:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Spelling need only follow a consistent convention for the entire article. Unless everyone involved agrees to change the initial convention, all contributing editors should follow the first convention used. This is Wikipedia policy, right or wrong. If you think it is wrong, change the policy before enforcing it. --Zephram Stark 15:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Instead of war editing, I propose that we try to achieve consensus. In the event that consensus fails (anyone opposes and refuses to yield), Wikipedia convention rules. Wikipedia allows for common sense to trump convention when all parties agree. Thus, I move that we drop our pretenses of ego, and allow common sense to overcome personal bias. Can we all agree that the English-language article about the Prime Minister of Spain be written in a dialect most used by the citizens of Spain? --Zephram Stark 16:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Which dialect is that. Zapatancas may claim it is US English, which I can well imagine would be easier for Spanish people, but may not be what they teach in the schools. At ther least we would need a source that US English is taught in the scvhools. Given that Zapatero's opponents love the US and his supporters dioslike it, IMO to make this article US spelling would be blatant POV, and therefore even if US English is taught in the schools I would still oppose. Policy indicates it should be in Brit spelling because of the history, as does the fact of Spain being a part of the EU, SqueakBox 16:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The most used English-dialect can be researched and discovered. I would be happy to do so if it would make any difference in this argument, but you have made it clear that it will not. You refuse to yield your right to a British dialect for this article even if all of Spain would like the article about its prime minister to be written in a different dialect. Therefore, the discussion is over. Common sense only trumps convention when everyone uses it. --Zephram Stark 00:36, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Well we have no evidence that "all of Spain" wants the article in US spelling. What we have is one editor who changed all the British spellings to American spelling when the article was originally in British spelling, as are the articles on Rato and Solana. But by all means lets have some evidence that Spain uses American spellings predominantly, and then we can discuss what to do in the light of the new evidence, SqueakBox 01:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
That is, of course, nothing but a smoke screen. You have already said that you will not allow changes to be made even if the entire world disagrees with you. --Zephram Stark 03:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I have said nothing of the sort. Either do or don't provide the info but don't just make excuses, SqueakBox 03:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I could not agree more with Zephram Stark when he says the current problem caused by SqueakBox must be solved through consensus. I am sorry to say that, in my opinion, the source of all the present difficulties, is that SqueakBox seldom bases his wishes upon any kind of logical reasoning. For example, he says that all articles about Spanish politicians use British spelling. But the article about Aznar, the most important Spanish politician in recent years (as the prime minister of every country always is) uses American spelling (at least it includes the words 'polarized' and 'generalized').
When SqueakBox first came to this article, it had been written using American spelling for months. And nobody had complaint. But the first thing he did was to start changing the spelling of some words (not all, in fact, he mixed spellings something that is very bad style) saying that Spain is in the EU and because of that everybody is forced to use British English when writing about Spain (!?).
I think the logical, respectful thing to do is to preserve the spelling you first find if nobody else wants to change it. If he has never made any useful contribution to this article, what right he has to change the spelling only to impose that used in his town? Zapatancas 10:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Technically, since the first substantial edits were made by User:Adam Carr, who has a PhD from the University of Melbourne, I would argue that the article was originally written in Australian English rather than British English (which I realize is nitpicking, but it does show that the initial English chosen for an article is based solely on where the editor comes from - if I started an article about some British subject, I would use American English and wouldn't complain when it got changed later on). In addition, I don't find the fact that Spain is part of the EU particularly relevant. Having spent a decent amount of time in Spain, I can tell you that people weren't exactly walking around speaking British English (or American English for that matter). Also, saying that making the article into American English would be blatant POV is a bit of an overstatement - it isn't like Zapatero or his constituents are out there sucking up to the UK. The article itself states that he is focusing on France and Germany as allies rather than the UK, and mentions tensions over Gibraltar. However, to address the other two members of the argument, I don't see any supports for changing the article into American English other than the article on Aznar, which doesn't tell me anything except that there is an inconsistency in English used between various articlces about Spain. Of course I personally would prefer American English, since as an American it is quite annoying to see what look like numerous misspellings in any article, but since wikipedia's policy is to use numerous variants of English, my personal opinion doesn't matter much, and neither do Zapatancas' or Zephram Stark's. Unless either one can show evidence that American English is taught in school (which is entirely possible) or that American English is somehow embraced by the entirety of the Spanish population (which I seriously doubt), I don't see their arguments as being valid either. Also, if "the logical, respectful thing to do is to preserve the spelling you first find if nobody else wants to change it" then why was the article ever changed from the Australian spelling in the first place? I don't mean to come off as insulting, so I hope I didn't come off that way. Maybe some kind of larger debate should be occuring regarding all Spain articles (or at least those about Spanish politicians) to determine what English to use. "Legalisation" and "colonization" are both used in Spain itself, and that isn't helping anyone. -Parallel or Together? 15:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I certainly agree about the problems re using a "foreign" type of English. I actually can't write US English with any degree of certainty, get maddened by the misspellings etc, and appreciate Americans have this problem with our English. At times the grammar is substantially different. Zapatancas, I hate to disappoint you but I was working on this article way before you here. It was not me who changed the spelling to the US version. I merely reverted to non US spelling which was what the article had when I first edited it, indeed until you came along. To claim I have made no contribution to this article is as meaningless as me saying you haven't contributed to the article, and doesn't help things move along at all, SqueakBox 16:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I see two ways to objectively resolve this problem.
1. We can reach consensus omnium, agreement of all parties, which is the only real consensus. Anything less becomes a vote.
2. We can abide by Wikipedia standards for when consensus cannot be reached over the spelling dialect of the article.
Let's look at the implications of each option in depth:
1. Consensus Omnium does not mean that all parties have to arrive at the same conclusion. It only means that all parties consider moving in a unified direction to be more important than getting their way in this particular matter. In considering the best course of action in this matter (outside of Wikipedia policy), I have heard one convincing argument from each side:
a. Zapatancas claims that Spaniards use the more internationalised US spelling. The truth or untruth of this can be verified.
b. SqueakBox claims that US spelling in an article about someone who opposes US intervention is POV (apparently because it's a subtle insult). The truth of Zapatero's opinion about the U.S. is already evident. Therefore, we can assume that an astute reader would get the innuendo associated with U.S. spelling.
Since Zapatancas hails from Spain, and Wikipedia forces us to assume good faith until we have evidence to the contrary, we must assume that his claim of US spelling being taught in Spanish schools it true. Therefore, the only relevant question to reaching consensus is: Which of the following two factors are more important?
a. Preponderance of usage as taught in Spanish schools for this article about the Prime Minister of Spain; or
b. Personal spelling preference of the Prime Minister of Spain
As an unbiased party, I would point out that Zapatero is a representative of all of the people of Spain, not just his supporters. Therefore, the preponderance of spelling usage in Spain should logically dictate the spelling of his article.
2. If we cannot reach a logic consensus, we must fall back upon Wikipedia standards for dialect spelling. As per Parallel or Together's comments, that would require us to change the article back to Australian English, something only an ambered alf would avagoyermug. Naff of this galah's earbashing though. Let's give the article fair dinkum to pivot on it fitting with the Seppos or Poms, and drop the aggro act before this Strine makes me chunder.
--Zephram Stark 16:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I think we need an external source that Spaniards use American spelling. I certainly know Spain (have spent about a year there) and also lived for years with a Spanish woman in the UK, and I find it hard to believe US English is taught in the schools (nor has Zapatancas confirmed this), but if we can prove through independent sources that that is the case it would make a difference to this debate, whereas the personal choice of Zapatero (which is in any case unprovable without original research) is not relevant. I think the fact that Spain is part of the EU, as are the UK and Ireland, is another important factor. I think the fact that Spanish people write legalizar etc is completely irrelevant. For the recordI always conform to US spellings with Latin America, but tthat is a different case, SqueakBox 17:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
"Make a difference in the debate?" LMAO — sounds like more smokescreen to me. Make a decision. Proof that US English is predominently taught in Spain will either satisfy you or it will not. Which is it going to be? --Zephram Stark 20:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Can someone first provide this proof? Without it, whether SqueakBox will agree to American English is a moot point. -Parallel or Together? 06:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Why does Zephram think I am smokescreening? Wikipedia:Assume good faith, which I am acting in. Making smokescreening excuses won't resolve the problem. The fact that nobody is providing it leads me to suspect the Spanish don't use American English, SqueakBox 15:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

When Zapatancas reverted to US English days back he onmly did a partial job. I suspect being Spanish he can't really tell the difference so he left the article in a mixture of the 2 languages. As A Spaniard living neither in England, the States or any other English speaking country this is not surprising, but I would suggest to him that he is better off letting native speakers format the language spelling/grammar. Example. Rumour, SqueakBox 15:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I would be happy to research the issue of English schooling in Spain if it will make any difference in the resolution of this dispute, but Squeakbox has said that even if the school issue were resolved, he would fall back on the Wikipedia policy of abiding by the spelling of the first edit. No type of faith has to be assumed. Squeakbox has spoken very clearly about this above. If Squeakbox wants to change his mind and state that the type of English schooling in Spain will resolve the issue, I agree to spend up to ten hours researching an objective source to quantify exactly which style of English is taught in the schools of Spain. If he will not, and the Spanish school issue actually has no bearing, then we can say nothing about his argument except that it is a smokescreen to confuse resolution of this dispute. --Zephram Stark 16:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I repeat, it is not a smokescreen. Stop assuming bad faith. How 10 hours research? You are aware, I take it, about no original research. I have clearly stated it would make a difference to this debate whether or not the Spanish use US English, as I have stated that I believe they don't, SqueakBox 16:10, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

One example of the Spanish using British English is the word móvil, which means mobile phone. Here in Latin America we say celular which means cell phone, the American for a mobile, SqueakBox 16:16, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

This Cordoba site uses international English, eg programmes, SqueakBox 16:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I can't seem to get a straight answer out of you, Squeakbox. I keep trying to make this an objective discussion that can be resolved. You apparently want to throw as much dirt and confusion on the issue as possible, like it's you against the world. This goes against the core concept of Wikipedia, that we be a resource of collective throught and information gathering. You made a request for our unbiased help, so try working with us. Give us some way to objectively quantify which spelling this article should assume. Tell us what should be the definitive factor, or group of factors for deciding this. So far, the only objectively definable argument I have heard is the school question. For the third time, "Do you agree to yield if the school question can be settled?" Yes or no? --Zephram Stark 16:37, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I am absolutley being collaborative even withy zapatancas, who has deeply insulted and offended me in the past more than once. This is not about yieldiong, it is gathering evidence and drawing a conclusion. I am gathering evidence so we can discuss the issue more fully. Get on with it, or don't. Your demands have nothing to do with wikipedia policy or spirit, and the idea that it is me against the world is ridiculous. Noone has put any arguments to prove that the Spanish use US spelling but I am providing evidence that they use international English. Which fits in with the fact that this article was originally written in international English. What more do you want? SqueakBox 16:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I want you to answer the question that I have asked four times now, "If it can be established that most schools of Spain teach American English over British English, is it okay with you if we change the article about Spain's Prime Minister to an American spelling?" --Zephram Stark 16:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

No, under those terms, because I am not willing to make that commitment before seeing evidence. If I see the evidence we can have a debate, as I said before, and in agreement with Parallel_or_Together?. It is entirely up to you to provide evidence of your claim before getting me to make a commitment, but as I said, it would be a significant factor, and as far as I am concerned the debate is not over, nor have I ever implied that this is the case. It really is in your hands now, SqueakBox 17:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

As I'm sure you are counting on, nobody is going to invest hours of their time researching a question that will have no bearing on a case. All parties have consented to a specific method for resolving this dispute except you. In your opinion, exactly what should be the definitive element or set of elements in this case? If the dialect taught in schools "would be a significant factor," what additional factors do you require to objectively resolve this issue? --Zephram Stark 17:40, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I have explicitly stated it would make a difference, nor am I the only editor here. Which parties have consented to what? I see nothing of that, only your fantasy claim that IMO it will have no bearing on the case. Please read what I and others are saying more carefully, then either do or don't get on with sourcing, but stop wasting time with vague, unfounded accusations that are not moving this debate forward, SqueakBox 17:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Your imagination about what I am counting on is another sign of your bad faith in me. What is your problem? SqueakBox 17:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


Call for a vote on dialect used

This issue has already attracted more time and energy than it is worth. I think it's fairly obvious that SqueakBox is not interested in defining terms under which this matter could be solved. He requested comment from unbiased editors and then rejected any comments that did not serve his preconceived notion about how this matter should be decided. Further, I find that the only arguments Squeakbox has made for the article being changed to a British spelling are either weak or untrue. As evidenced by the history of this article, it didn't start out with British spelling, so there is no Wikipedia policy mandating that it be changed to that spelling. Unless someone wants to change all additions to the original Australian-English, I propose that we report this Spanish article in the dialect taught in Spanish schools. Assuming the good faith of User:Zapatancas, a citizen of Spain, that dialect is American English. Please agree or disagree below.

Zapatancas has said no such thing, and even if he had a source is a source is a source, and the word of a user is not the same thing at all. The article started in international English rather than in US English (the Austral;ian version being a misnomer) and Spain is a part of the EU. There have so far been no arguments or sources from the side of US spelling and so a vote is entirely inappropriate and meaningless as articles are not written by votes without arguments being produced and in defiance of policy, SqueakBox 04:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

In the meantime I am still trying to find out whether the Spanish teach US or international English, SqueakBox 04:10, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're on your own, SqueakBox. A request for comment is for the purpose of getting more voices to help find consensus. You are obviously not interested in consensus. You had your mind made up as to the only acceptable outcome before you ever asked for help. I came here assuming good faith and you have proven otherwise. I will not respond to your requests for help in the future, and from the looks of this discussion, neither will anyone else. --Zephram Stark 16:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It is not true that I am not interested in consensus, as my record in many articles indicates I am indeed interested in consensus and in having a debate. I am saying let us get the info and then have the debate whereas you are saying we must have the debate before getting the information, which is doing things all topsy turvy, as another user pointed out to you I am absolutely here in good faith and you have no cause to be thinking otherwise. Please examine your own behaviour rather than engaging in personal attacks on other users as that doesn't actually help the situation. on my own? I don't know what you are talking about but this is clealry not so, SqueakBox 16:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm talking about how nobody is willing to spend any more time on this issue, including me. You've got your mind made up that Spain should succumb to the dialects of the EU and nothing is going to change that partiality. I've asked you five times for some type of logic behind your mindset and all you keep throwing at me is a bunch as weak arguments, as if dozens of weak arguments combine to make a strong one. Postulate support doesn't work that way. Resting your argument on a combination of weak support structures makes your assertion progressively less stable. Here's a diagram:
Your assertion relies on nothing that can be substantiated definitively. It is the 24% pink box on the top left. When you base your assertions on claims that are vague or only partially true, people subconsciously assign a percentage value to your supporting claims and a product of those percentages to your main assertion. Thereby, any supporting claims that cannot be substantiated only weaken your argument.
Compare that to Zapatancas' assertion which can be substantiated one way or the other. His is the 100% yellow box on the top right because all of his supporting arguments lead to a definitive resolution, either in support of British spelling or American spelling, depending on the outcome. Zapatancas' method is the only scientifically accepted method of researching matters of fact. To maintain a neutral point of view, you have to define the question and form a hypothesis before you collect and analyze your data.
I have asked you five times to define an experiment that would resolve this question. You absolutely refuse and demand to see the results of any possible experiments before stating how the experiments are to be interpreted. In your unyielding demands for a corrupt method of proof, you have made your intentions evident and good faith can no longer be assumed. --Zephram Stark 17:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I simply don't understand what you are on about. Do you use your bizarre map wherever you go on wikipedia? Why not see if it can become policy? Meanwhile please bring some serious discussion that is to the point here, or don't. Zapatancas has brought nothing here, and neither have you, in terms of solid argument. I have brought arguments, all Zapatancas has done is unilaterally change the spellings for no reason and against policy. Now either bring relevant sources about spelling or don't, but do not blame me and engage in personal attacks if you can't be bothered to, SqueakBox 17:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not interested in experioments (I am not a scientist and that smacks of original research). I have been clear and honest. Please do the same, SqueakBox 17:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Earlier in this discussion you said that the original edits were in "International English" rather than Australian English. I realize that it may be convenient to declare anything that is non-American English to be "International English," but please refrain from doing so. If "International English" were to mean the standard used by numerous international organizations (like the United Nations, etc.) then the original author would have used the -ize endings featured in such a system. If "International English" were to mean the type of English most frequently taught as a second language in most countries in the world, then the original author would have had to just use non-altered American English. So perhaps in regards to the first significant contribution to the article, it would be most accurate to say that Commonwealth English was used. I am sympathetic to your cause, and don't think that anyone has really added any evidence to this debate (that chart above right is ridiculous), but as an American it is somewhat offensive to have "International English" used as a synonym for non-US Englsh. The United States is a major player internationally and to suggest otherwise would be a significant falsehood. And this is not just some misguided patriot speaking - I am making no value judgments about our international role, just pointing out it's importance, which is in fact mentioned as one of the reasons that so many countries choose American English as the standard for TESL. -Parallel or Together? 04:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Zapatancas' opinion

First of all, I want to make clear that I have never claimed that either American or British English are used in Spanish schools. From my own experience, I can say that the topic of spellings is too advanced for the current level of English teaching in Spain. You can believe me if I say I have known Spaniards who believe that 'ungry' is the American for 'angry'.

What I have said is that it is absurd to defend that British English must be used in the articles about Spain as Spain is in the European Union. We speak Spanish in Spain, and not any variant of the English language. I have also said that, in my opinion, American English is more international than British English as the American influence is bigger than that from Britain. I believe this is significant because in Spain when English words are used they usually follow American spelling (for example, it would not be rare to find a gym called "Body Center" instead of "Body Centre", in fact, if you asked from what language 'centre' comes I believe most people would answer French).

It must not be forgotten either that American spelling is more similar to Spanish than British English. For example, Spanish verbs that end in '-izar' have American counterparts ending in '-ize', whereas the British form ends in '-ise'(for example, 'analizar is 'analyse' - British - but 'analyze' - American). Other example is provided by the words ending in -or (Am), -our (British): 'favor', 'favour' = Spanish 'favor'; 'honor', 'honour' = Spanish 'honor', and so on. The similarity is not strange. In Spains spelling and pronunciation always coincide and American spelling was created to get closer to the real pronunciation of words.

What is really important is to use always the same spelling and, the fact is that we Spaniards are more prone to use American spelling, especially if we are influenced by the way words are written on the Internet, where American spelling is far more typical. As this articles attracts a lot of Spanish users (for evident reasons), in my humble opinion it is more sensible to keep using American spelling as is the safest way to preserve a coherent spelling throughout the article.

I also find absurd the current obsession of SqueakBox with the spelling of the article. If the editions made by Squiquifox really belong to him, he had no problem with using American spelling at that time, as it can be easily checked here. In that version of the article, the following American spelled words were used: characterized, criticized, favor, generalized, legalize, legalizing, organization and radicalization. If he did not complain then, when the supposed change from British, Australian, Commonwealth English to American English took place was closer in time than now, why does he complain several months later?

In any case, in my opinion, the worst part of this problem has been the attitude of SqueakBox. He came here one day (after implicitly accepting the American spelling used by the article as I have already explained) and tried to impose the spelling he prefers due to his origin without taking into account other users' preferences and without starting any previous dialogue using as only argument that thing about Spain is in the EU.

I believe that everybody must accept the spelling s/he finds the first time s/he edits the article, if nobody is contesting that use. Therefore, if nobody but SqueakBox wants to move this article to British English (including the person who first started it who has shown no interest in this discussion as far as I know) I do not understand what it must be changed unilaterally after so many months. Zapatancas 11:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

What spelling do you think Prime Minister Zapatero would prefer his article to be written in? --Zephram Stark 16:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea. Zapatero does not master English and he needs a translator whenever he travels abroad so I do not believe he would be very interested in the subject. In any case, political reasons would not play any part in his decision probably. He has expressed he does not profess any kind of anti-Americanism. Besides, his grandfather, who has influenced him a lot, was a Freemason and, as it is known, the ideals Freemasons claim to defend are an important part of the American values. As I don't believe he dislikes Britain for any special reason and, as I have said, he cannot speak English well I don't think he would favor any specific possibility. Zapatancas 08:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I dont think the EU argument is very strong. Spain can use American English and still be a part of the European Union. I've also heard the comment by Europeans that they 'speak American' - in reference to the fact that they speak English because of America's influence etc. in the world rather than Britain's. (and I use British English by the way) Astrokey44 10:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Following the Manual of Style as to spelling issues

The MoS addresses the American English/Commonwealth English dispute as follows:

Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country.
. . . .
If an article is predominantly written in one type of English, aim to conform to that type rather than provoking conflict by changing to another.
. . . .
If all else fails, consider following the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor (that is, not a stub) to the article.

(from Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English)

Note that the variety of English most commonly used in a country is a relevant factor only in articles relating to English-speaking countries.

There was some discussion a while back about this part of the MoS; see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style--Archive11#British English / American English. In the course of that discussion, one idea that came up was to specify a style of English to be used in articles relating to non-English-speaking countries, based on determining which style was more commonly used in that country. There was no enthusiasm for that idea. The MoS remained unchanged; it prescribes a specific rule only for English-speaking countries. For all others, we fall back on the general rule that the article should follow the first style of English that was used. Based on what I've read above, I gather that would be Commonwealth English here. Under the MoS, there's no relevance to the form of English taught in schools in Spain, or to any other indication of usage in Spain (English-language newspapers, tourist brochures aimed at English speakers, etc.). JamesMLane 11:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, JamesMLane for your contribution. I think it finally ends a discussion that should never have started. If this article is analyzed on the light of the three points of the MoS the following is deducted:
  1. This article is not linked to any specific English speaking country so the spelling to use is defined by that used by its contributors.
  2. On May 1, 2005, the article, as can be checked in the history page, was written in American spelling (only). Although some of the first stub articles used the British word 'modernising', on March 15, 2004 the first American spelled word was introduced: 'organization'. Spontaneously and little by little, the article started to lose its British words until it became American-only. On May 2, 2005 SqueakBox tried to change the spelling unilaterally for selfish reasons (he is British), although the article had been using for months a specific version of the English language (American English) coherently (that is, only American spelling was used). It has become clear after the useful contribution by JamesMLane that SqueakBox did not respect Wikipedia's rules and showed, and not for the first time, his inability to take part in a cooperative environment. American English was and is the predominant spelling of the aticle and no user can choose another only because of his personal preferences.
  3. Regarding the third rule commented by JamesMLane, as it has already been said, the initial mixture of spellings started when the article was still a stub, so as the major expansions of the article were written using American English, this third rule proves again that SqueakBox had no right to impose his favorite spelling.
I want to express my gratitude for all the users who have taken part in this discussion and have helped to solve the problem. I hope SqueakBox will accept the rules of the Wikipedia. Zapatancas 09:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Why the issue of using British or American English in the article on Rodríguez Zapatero should be so important is beyond me. Anyway, for what it's worth, I would like to point out that the style of English taught in Spanish schools is almost universally British English. When I was at school, we used to use British books by Longman or Oxford University Press and teachers would teach us words like "colour" or "metre". The -ize spelling is, however, more usual than -ise probably because British EFL books also favour that spelling, which is acceptable in British English (and used in most printed books, although not in the press). At any rate, English is not an official language in Spain, so I don't think one should assert that Spain-related articles in English Wikipedia should necessarily adhere to British spelling. But it is true that the EU always uses British spelling in its English-language publications, if that is relevant at all. --AngelRiesgo 19:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Absol;utely. This article was in British English but one editor keeps reverting ity back to American English, SqueakBox 13:58, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

This article was never in British English as can be checked taking a look at its history. SqueakBox, please, you have proven again and again that you are unable to write neither American nor British English correctly. Your last attempt to change unilaterally the article's spelling was a failure. Favor, favorable, unfavorable, criticize are all spelled the American way. If your cultural level is not high enough to write your own language, why don't you find a passtime other than the Wikipedia (or a job)?
It is clear you also have serious problems understanding your language. For example, you started your contribution above these lines with "Absolutely". But Angel Riesgo has said that:
  • "Why the issue of using British or American English in the article on Rodríguez Zapatero should be so important is beyond me." That is, he finds you behavior childish.
  • "I don't think one should assert that Spain-related articles in English Wikipedia should necessarily adhere to British spelling." That is, he finds the argument you used unbelievable stupid.
Please, SqueakBox. You should find other things in your life besides spending all day long in the Wikipedia. Try to change your life. You cannot live filled with resentment because of all the bad things that have happened to you forever. Zapatancas 09:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Urgent!

Oh my God!!! What's this????

"His party, the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, with the help of Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, prepared the March 11th terrorist attacks to win the general election on March 14, 2004"

Somebody should check the whole article because somebody has changed or added stupid sentences.

Clean up and POV

This article does not conform to wiki stanmdards, is full of original research, and has had the spelling changed to US English, so it needs both a cleanuop tag and an NPOV tag until thesde problems are thoroughly sorted. At present this article is a disgrace to wikipedia. SqueakBox 13:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Zapatancas, I know you only edit this article and Freemasonry so you don't understand how wikipedia works. Try reading Category:Wikipedia style guidelines. There is nothing more frustrating than following wikipedia guidelines only to have this style reverted to the personal style of one editor who seems to want the style in this article to be unique, SqueakBox 15:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

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