Talk:Jordan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Jordan is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.
This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Geography article has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Western Asia,
a WikiProject related to the countries of Western Asia.

Contents

[edit] Education part: lists of schools and universities

I have removed the list of schools and universities from the main Jordan page, becasue this doesn't exist in any other country. I have, however, included "main article" links for the list of universities and private schools. --Eshcorp 11:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

The 1950 annexation with the West Bank is a result of conquered land after the 1948 War? I suggest a different use of the word conquer, since this land was under Arab administration and control before the war and declaration of the state of Israel. Aboosh 08:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

A citation is needed for the statement that Transjordan annexation to the West Bank was only recognized by GB.

[edit] Name of Jordan

Hashimite Kingdom of Jordan is one of 3 (not 2) countries in the world to take it's name from a dynasty. Liechtenstein is also derives it's name from the ruling family.

I will include this.Eshcorp 18:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern History

I am not sure why the only two items included in the modern history of Jordan are the 11/11/05 and the tourism attack. I do believe that more information must provided, to include these incidences, and other hallmarks that shaped Jordan history. I suggest that these items be coronlogical in order and present the last 10-15 years of Jordans internal and external affairs. Aboosh 05:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economy

The GDP per Capita is wrong here. Per the CIA factbook, and other links on Wikipedia, the GDP per Capita for Jordan is $USD 4,200 range rather than the $1,800 range. I have changed the article in Wiki to reflect that


I agree , to call the heading modern history is misleading, maybe change it to current events?

[edit] Education

Why is there a list of universities and private schools? Are there any country pages that have lists like this? Does this belong in an encyclopedia? --Yodakii 08:23, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

It is a bit odd. Since the list was there, I added a missing school. Most of the schools listed are located in Amman, so it would make sense that, should such a list exist, it should probably be placed in the Amman, Jordan article. – Cybjorg 12:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] People

Are the following sentences really relevant?

Jordanian people are known for their kindness and honesty. Although you might not see a big smile on thier faces in general, but deep down, they are kind at heart. Just remember, we should always smile.

No. --Yodakii 14:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

no

"Jordanians are Semitic Levantines" - I've never heard the phrase "Semitic Levantine" before. I think this sentence should be edited, or perhaps, removed all together.

Why is there no mention of Bedouins in this article? They form an important element of Jordanian culture.

[edit] Blatherskyte

The article currently asserts:

Transjordan was one of the Arab states that moved to assist Palestinian nationalists opposed to the creation of Israel in May 1948, and took part in the warfare between the Arab states and the newly founded State of Israel. The armistice agreements of April 3, 1949 left Jordan in control of the West Bank and provided that the armistice demarcation lines were without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines.

This is a blatant rewriting of history. While it's undeniable that Transjordan was among the 7 nations whose armies invaded Israel in May of 1948, there is no support for the statement that their having done so was "to assist Palestinian nationalists opposed to the creation of Israel". It was an invasion for the glory of the Ummah, and nothing else. Unless someone can provide me with reliable documentation to the contrary, I'm removing this patently false assertion within 12 hours. [[User:

[edit] tourism

I have added tourism to the economy section, but it needs expansion.. so please, anyone who has any useful information add it. Also, I would appreciate re-wording the section I wrote, to make it more understandable and easier. Eshcorp 12:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DEMOGRAPHIS EDIT WARS

The first paragraph of the demographics have been subjected to light edit wars. These are the result of pro- and anit-Isrelis different point of views, and the fact that neither can accept the other! Pro Israeli's called people who settled in the land of palestine as "settled temporarily" (for a thousand years, temporarily? yeah right!), and the Isreal haters who keep getting upset and reverting, having mean edit notes such as "i hate israel", which alone results in making people mad and start being mean.

Jordanians are primarily of indigenous Levantine Semitic stock, admixed with various other peoples who have through its history come to conquer or settle the area — principally Arabians (also a Semitic people) during the Islamic expansionism that brought Arab culture, language and the Muslim faith. But also about 60% of Jordan's population are originally Palestinian Arabs (while their origin is in debate, they might have settled in southern Palestine around the 12th century bc- and Canaanites[citation needed] or after the Muslim invasion in the 7th century AD).

REMEMBER The five pillars of wikipedia, it says that Wikipedia has a code of conduct! That is to be civil!!

In the edit above, I have merged both pro- and Anti- arab/palestinian/isreali/jewish/muslim point of views, the result is:

NPOV: while their origin is in debate,

PRO ARAB POV: they might have settled in southern Palestine around the 12th century bc- and Canaanites

PRO ISREAL/JEWISH POV: or after the Muslim invasion in the 7th century AD

  1. While some may learn in school the contrary about the history of the land of palestine, the truth is it is uncertain. Arabs have it in their education system that Palestinians came first and Isreali's have the contrary! FACT btw.
  2. You cannot block another point of view from being expressed. - you cannot remove ANY one of those without any reason.

Thanks, Eshcorp 14:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motto

Is anyone able to provide a reference for the motto? A Google search only yields Wikipedia mirrors. Pruneautalk 18:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there isn't a reference, I've searched too, found nothing. --Eshcorp 09:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
While not being a Jordanian citizen myself, but on a visit to the ministry of interior as I remember one could see the motto written in large letters on the ministry's facade. 195.229.241.180 15:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Reference for the Motto the motto "Jordan First" and its significance can be viewed in the official Jordanian Ministery of Forigen Affairs [1]. However, in my latest visit to jordan, I have noticed that this motto has been modified to "We (All of us) are Jordan", but I need to search for a reference for that. Aboosh 05:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Let me correct you. First, Jordan First is more of a campaign, but it might be considered the national motto. However, "God, the Homeland, the king" is the most important national motto of Jordan. As for كلنا الأردن, it is actually translated "We are all Jordan", and it is not a national motto. It is a discussion forum (hence منتدى كلنا الأردن) started by King Abdullah II. Eshcorp 16:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification! Aboosh 18:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

The assertions in the Black September section are strange and have no citation!

Please:

  1. make sure it is a fact, not a myth or something people talk about
  2. add citations

Information I consider or needing citations:

  1. king hussein asked for help from Israel
  2. Israel threatened to invade
  3. Jordan got help from pakistani and other nationals

Hello, thanks for your remarks, but in fact these are Arabic history stories and unfortunately I can't find something in English about it, because it is not important events to talk about in historical international books. But they talk about it in general. #king hussein asked for help from Israel - that is sure 100%, but what is not sure if king Hussein asked directly from Israel or indirectly by USA, but it is sure that Israel helped him and threatened Syria.

  1. Jordan got help from pakistani and other nationals: it is too detailed to find a reference for it, but it is sure 100%, because there were forces in Jordan in that time - some called it the Arabien Army, some called it Islamist, but the majority were Pakistani, the objective of these forces was to protect Jordan from Israeli attacks or in case of an Arab plan to attack Israel ( reserve forces ).

I can provid you an evidence, when you read this story ask yourself the following questions: was the Jordanian Army able to defeat the Israeli forces in Karameh ? and was able to defeat the Syrian Army - which wanted to help the PLO- ? and was able to defeat the PLO militants ?. All these battles alone ? So necessarily, there were forces helped the Jordanian Army, and Israel threatened to protect its borders ( it is dangerous to find the Syrian and Palestinian Armies on the Jordanian-Israeli borders).

Thanks for the reply. First of all, related to help from Israel, I don't know if it is true, but I know that King Hussein would never have asked Israel for help a that time: they were enemies, the relations only got better in 1994. If it is true that King Hussein got help from Isreal by having asked them indirectly through the United States:
  1. The sentence hussein asked for isreali help must change
  2. A valid reference must be given
I might believe you when you say 100% sure, but I am pretty positive that a large part of the millions of readers won't without a proper reference, in english. If we fail to find such reference, me must say it is believed that.. or it is thought that.. .
Secondly, in my own point of view, the Jordanian army was capable of defeating israel in the al-Karameh, because I know information and statistics that verify that. The source of this information are actually past soldiers who did fight in al-karameh or a relative of theirs. It is told how the army was capable of destroying X isreali tanks, what were their plans, etc. I personally find that information believable, yet I don't write it here becasue even though - in my mind - it is 100% true, there is no physical evidence that proves that.
Anyways, as I said before, I really think we need to find more sources, and expand the section in general to include different point of views. Eshcorp 12:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I Think Eshcorp if you have lived any length of time in Jordan you would have known that King Hussien had asked for the help of the Israelis while the US provided support with a US carrier. But since you needed English sources, here are a few links --
  1. http://www.historycentral.com/mideast/BlkSept.html
  2. http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_expel_plo.php
I hope you find them satisfactory as sources for this black spot of Arab history.

Palestine48 10:54, 07 October 2006 (UTC)

These links are indeed good sources. BTW, about King Hussein asking Israel for help, I believe what is said that he has asked the United States for help, but they directed him to get help from isreal, I could be wrong tho. My whole point the post was to make:
  1. proper citations that people can rely on
  2. proper wording
  3. that the text is not biased
I believe what we currently have is very close to that. Eshcorp 14:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Democracy in Jordan

Is there any hope for democracy in Jordan? Is there any local movement to overthrow the monarchy? Is Jordan's dictatorship propped up by Western powers, or does it stand alone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.44.102.11 (talk • contribs) 08:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all, no there's no plans to overthrow the monarchy. Second, Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, not an absolute monarchy, it has nothing to do with dictatorship. The people enjoy many liberties compared to the area, but compared to the west, some improvement should still happen. King Abdullah has made efforts to fihgt many problems in the Jordanian freedoms that exist now, such as honor killings, which is lightly punished.
So, to sum up:
  1. Jordan isn't a dictatorship
  2. Jordan is a consitutional monarchy, meaning there is a chamber of deputies that is elected by the people, it forms a major part of the government.
  3. Jordan does have opposition to the government, but no plans to overthrow the system.
  4. There Jordanian constitution allows the creation of political parties, that means that not everyone must be on the king's side
  5. When compared to the west, Jordan has little democracy and freedoms, but you must remember that Jordan is in the middle east, where its current situation is considered good.

--Eshcorp 12:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Let us not kid ourselves Jordan is not a democracy and never was. It has a veil of democracy. Let me shed some light on Jordan's Democracy:
  1. The King has absolute power he can appoint and remove any prime minister regardless of reason; laws to limit his power are never used (out of fear).
  2. Elections are based on Tribal and sometimes ethnic grounds and sometimes forged.
  3. Jordanian people and residents are banned from criticising the monarchy or even suggest a replacement form of governance.
  4. Unions are very strictly controlled and some are banned e.g. Teachers.
There are many other reasons I can list but I don't want to wash our dirty laundry in public.
Palestine48 10:02, 07 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, some replies about each point:
  1. True. Concerning ministers, that is. However, members of the chamber of deputies are what I have been talking about, and though the could be removed, the procedure is not as simple as you say it is.
  2. Forged? I can't say that's a fact.
  3. Yes, and I have said that in my post.
  4. Unions are controlled because of what I said in point 3, that is anti-government movements, etc.
Now, just to be clear, I have never said Jordan is a democracy, and I am surprised you even unterstood that I may have implied that.:
  • Jordan is not a democracy, not even close
  • The point of my post was that Jordan, is also not a dictatorship, like the original poster implied.
Eshcorp 14:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

About the supposed fair elections - that is not the case, my father who is currently living in Jordan was thinking to run in those elections changed his mind. He found out if someone gets elected fairly to represent the Jordanian parliament he can still be dismissed by the King (right after he wins) and be replaced by the King's appointed unelected representative in parliament. In addition, if a parliamentarian does not agree with the official government policy, he will be branded a revolutionary or terrorist and be thrown in jail and replaced by the King's appointed officials. This contradicts George W's speech in the UN that Jordan is one of the rising democracies in the M.E. Bestghuran 9:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've actually done some research and found out that a person could be dismissed by the king right after winning. However, it is an uncommon thing, since it messes with the King's popularity, so it doesn't happen that much. Recently, I believe some were dismissed, but only for committing "crime" (though people might argue if it is considered a crime), and that's a completely different story where the supreme court is involved and is not a simple task. To sum things up:
  1. yes the king can dismiss deputies after winnig
  2. no it is not common
  3. those dismissals happening recently are (or are claimed to be) because a "crime" has been committed.
I hope this clears up what I meant. And again, I just want to remind that my purpose behind my first reply is that Jordan is not a dictatorship, and I still strongly agree to my opinion.Eshcorp 17:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agriculture of Jordan

I just checked here to learn about the agriculture of Jordan, but there's nothing here on it. :-) Shouldn't there be? Anchoress 21:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There should.. Eshcorp 17:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish can't own land

This part is no longer the case, Israel now has an embassy in Amman and a house for the Israeli ambassador for Jordan. Also Israeli companies are in areas of Jordan like Irbid using the locals as cheap labour, but it was agreed upon by King Abdullah II. So far I have never seen a synogogue, but there is a Palestinian population who are Jewish-Arabs and Jewish-Arabs from Iraq, who probably left to Jordan in fear of the U.S.'s brilliant strategy. Also laws are passed and they will never be enforced, you know like UN Resolutions. Bestghuran 9:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal system and legislation

"Jordan's legal system is based on Islamic law and French codes"

Could this be expanded on slightly? The rest of the paragraph discusses what sounds to be a fairly conventional governmental and legel setup, and doesn't give any indication of the inclusion of Islamic legal elements - the "... on Islamic Law..." bit sounds kind of tacked up and unexplained at present. Dxco 19:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it has to do with moral stuff. :P Eshcorp 18:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
That is, that cultural or ethical beliefs tied to the religion are encoded within the legal framework? Perhaps this could be briefly touched upon in the discussion, if in fact it is the case. Dxco 03:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Western Asia at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Western Asia whose scope would include Jordan. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion of royal family

Are they Sunni or Shi'a? All I know is that they are descended from the Ahl al-Bayt. Khorshid 22:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


They are sunni.

[edit] Economic data

I could not find those data on the internet. What is the actual interest rate on deposists in Jordan (data in the internet varied more than would be acceptable to be trusted)? And what is the GDP growth? 217.17.47.201 00:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/o/r/Talk%7EJordan_8aa1.html"