Talk:Jonathan Idema

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[edit] The role of speculation and citation in this article?

The second paragraph of the Afghan section currently reads:

"However, it is precisely because of his high profile and openness with the media that it is unlikely that Idema was officially connected with any branch of the military; covert operatives go to great lengths to avoid public appearances and media contacts. It is more likely, though, that Idema was operating in Afghanistan via independent financial backing, seeking the US$25 million bounty posted on bin Laden..."

Well, that sounds like speculation to me. My understanding of the no original research policy is that this kind of speculation can be included -- if the article is citing or quoting a verifiable, authoritative source.

There are verifiable sources that quote the claims Idema made in the Afghan court. Here is one:

Here is the key part:

"In front of the judge is the receipt that the FBI signed. Why did the judge allow the FBI to take evidence from the NDS?" Idema questioned, alleging that 500 pages of documents, 200 videotapes and at least 400 photographs had been seized.
"Now it's at the US embassy where no one is ever going to see it."

I'd like to include Idema's claims. Trouble is, it doesn't fit if the article already takes a stand that he is a fantastist.

So, if that 2nd paragraph came from a verifiable, citable source, it should be cited. Agreed? If it is the speculation of one of our fellow contributors should it be cut? Shouldn't we be setting the facts before the reader, and letting them make up their own minds? -- Geo Swan 19:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a reference to "Yunis Qanooni" in the later section that's currently red-linked. Should this be "Yunus Qanuni"? --Bearda 15:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't seem to verify the last paragraph that Idema had been cleared of all charges. The linked article seems to have disappeared, and all other sources state that Edward Caraballo was released, but make no mention of Idema being cleared. Does anyone else have support for this claim? -- Bearda 16:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article too long

This guy is a pretty unimportant person to have such a long and detailed article. Most of which is unsourced and frankly not well written. I think this should be hammered down to one or two paragraphs. protohiro 01:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. It's not too badly-written and it's interesting, even if he *isn't* very important. 146.115.45.103 01:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)L.

Idema's imprisonment alone is worth examining Here we have an American citizen operating apparently solo in a war zone, who managed to provoke the ire of the U.S. military. As for the stuff about his background, it certainly adds color to his persona. Still, this article suffers from a lack of verifiable sources. Alcarillo 17:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm suprised at how little media interest there is on Idema. I learned about him from a small excerpt in Newsweek. This article may help to fill this lack of information.Xpanzion 03:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Expansion

After reviewing lots of articles about Idema it seems like information is very scattered. A typical web surfer would probablbly either see just one side of the story, or would get frustrated with the difficulty of finding information ang give up. I think this is a great place to sum up this intriguing biographical information.

 I'd like to see the following aspects covered at least
  • List of videos from Idema commonly seen on TV
  • Compilation of any other material that was widely distributed after Idema handed it to the Media
  • More information on his associates including his attorney
  • Lots of other stuff

Xpanzion 04:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Idema's military record

Could someone clarify or expand on this section? The terms use jargon which need to be explained, such as:

Idema was repeatedly recycled just to get through training group and failed 05B training twice and was then recycled into 11B training.

What does this mean? Was he, or was he not a Green Beret? According to Robert Young Pelton's book Licenced to Kill, Idema was honorably discharged in February 1978. In light of the controversy surrounding Idema, the article needs to have sources confirming his military record. Alcarillo 16:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

05b training is special forces radio training. 11b training is for the MOS(Military Operations Specialty) of an infantryman. Many sources say that Idema was in special forces radio communications including Cao's blog. The word

recycled

probably subjests that Idema was sent back to more elementary training before retaking the special forces class for the third time. The only place I can find with the information about Idema failing this training is on the Stupor Patriots site

[1] The information is posted as an email from someone with Cao's blog. If anyone can find a more reliable source please reference it. If not this paragraph should be deleted. Xpanzion 23:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I will de-jargon it. Alcarillo 20:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Lots of the information in the military service section seems to be from the stupor patriots site. I already removed the part about his father getting Idema back into special forces training, I can't find anything even close anywhere else. A more reputable source should be found for the information on Idema's military career.Xpanzion 23:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. The more I've been looking into that site, the more I question it's veracity. I've requested from the site specific, verifiable information, especially regarding court records stemming from the 1994 wire fraud case. However, I've gotten no response, nor has my own research turned anything up. Same holds true for the pro-Idema sites out there as well -- it seems to be a sand-kicking match between two sets of bloggers. Curiously, it seems to revolve somewhat around Joseph A. Cafasso, another guy whose military record has been called into question, and who has been the target of a lot of attacks on pro-Idema sites. Alcarillo 23:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Special Forces

Idema's supporters claim Idema worked in many countries with special forces. Wide Awakes Radio His military record does not include any combat experience(this statement is included in the article), the argument for his international involvement has more to do with unofficial work, some of it outside of the military. Supporters of Idema are not made less credible by pointing to a lack of military records. Lets make sure both sides of this aspect of the story are articulated ; )Xpanzion 02:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

Looking at the article history, with its vandalism, reverts and other POV issues, it appears to be quite a back-and-forth between Idema and/or his supporters and Idema's critics. Therefore, I think the neutrality of this article has been compromised. At the very least, especially in the section "Unverified claims", the editing conflicts show with statements contradicting themselves. If information is not citied with verifiable sources, or if it violates wikipedia policy on point of view, it will be removed. Alcarillo 17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed

Idema claims to have been active within the Army Special Forces during the early years of the civil war in El Salvador as part of Operation Quicksilver and aided in the training the El Salvadoran troops.[citation needed] It was reported that Idema was in El Salvador at the time but that he was in-country as a civilian and not operating with any military unit.[citation needed]

It was the first paragraph in the section of unverified claims. I could not find this information anywhere. The closest thing I found was on Wide Awakeness Radio. It mentioned many countries of Idema's activity, but did not mention operation quicksilver. WAR Xpanzion 18:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The POV issue seems to have worked itself out (or at least the pro/anti-Idema camps have left this article alone for a while). So I removed the NPOV tag... Alcarillo 17:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified claims

I'm removing this section slowly. There shouldn't be unverified claims presented for a living person, especially if they include negative claims. I have spent lots of time looking for reliable sources to cite, then when I found something that was unfounded I removed it completely. Some of the material was verifiable and I moved it to other sections. There is one positive unverified claim that I can't confirm.

Afghani press reports indicating Idema, and other Special Operation Forces were in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s, during the Soviet Invasion, occupation and subsequent retreat were not found to be in error as far as Idema's participation is concerned. Idema did in fact have to be 'rescued' from the orginial Parlichuke Prison

If anyone can find a reliable source with this information please put the information in the Afghanistan section or military service.Xpanzion 05:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed warlordsofafghanistan site

An anonymous user added this external link to the article, which I removed because it is a commercial site promoting the site author and/or a specific product: Warlords of Afghanistan: Jonathan Keith Idema. (see the relevant Wikipedia policy on external links to avoid) Alcarillo 16:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Idema was in fact at Saderat and was taken from there after about three months of torture to Pulacharke by the Northern Alliance, who are now treating him as a POW in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Idema's Pulacharke ID card does not show him as a 'torturer' but rather as a 'political prisoner'. Edit was made by anon User:71.201.58.196

What does this have to do with the warlordsofafghanistan.com site being removed? Alcarillo 20:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source of Funding

How did Idema pay for equipment, housing, and workers? At least one source said he payed the cameraman. Did he pay Bennett as well? He sold some material to news companies, but what money did he use before he began to sell material? I'm not sure if a definitive answer can be found, if not a list of theories would be useful. Xpanzion 22:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That is interesting. From what I've read, Idema would often sell his "expert analysis" to correspondents in Afghanistan, usually for a few hundred dollars. There was one incident I believe recounted in Pelton's book when one reporter basically refused to pay Idema anything and Idema went off. So much so that the reporter feared for his life.
As for other sources, maybe he solicited donations from his supporters. And if he was truly a con artist, he could have used those skills to acquire cash. Alcarillo 17:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Update: I found an article here that may provide some info. Haven't thoroughly read it yet, but this part really got my attention:

"The investigation by ICE, the FBI, DEA, and IRS revealed that Alocozy’s business had been utilized by Jack Idema, the former Green Beret-turned bounty hunter who is currently imprisoned in Afghanistan for allegedly torturing Afghan civilians. During the investigation, Alocozy provided ICE investigators with copies of business ledgers indicating that Idema used Alocozy’s business to send funds from the U.S. to Afghanistan, presumably in support of his quest to capture Osama bin Laden and collect the $50 million reward.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alcarillo (talk • contribs) 19:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
Thanks for the info. I see another website related to Alocozy here. Xpanzion 00:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Another source of funding (and this seems the most verifiable) was the lawsuit Idema won against former business partners. I believe it was a $1.8 million judgement, of which he was entitled to $650,000. See the abstract of the second article from the Fayetteville Observer. [2] Alcarillo 00:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counter Terrorist Group US

Solid information about this group would improve the article greatly. Idema seems to have gained credibility through his relationship with this organization, also he may have recieved funding. The article currently states that Idema founded this group; however a google search for "counterr group" reveals sites that don't consistently state that Idema owns, or founded this company. I cannot find a stock listing for this company. The company website contains pictures of Idema, so there must be some relationship with Idema.

It makes me wonder if the company actually is owned or was founded by Idema. If not, what has Idema done for the company? Does the company actually do anything? What customers, if any, has this company advised? Who else works for them, and who fronted the money for its formation? If the website is truthful about the scale of the companies operations, which supposedly include a helicopter shooting range, then it must have been expensive to construct the training facilities.Xpanzion 19:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

According to a Soldier of Fortune article published in 2004, after his arrest, Idema is mentioned as the owner.[3] I presume that's still the case. However nothing comes up with the North Carolina Secretary of State's office under that name (interestingly, Idema Combat Systems still does)[4]. But it is still registered in New York State -- and listed as "inactive".[5] However, it still seems to be a vehicle used to promote Idema's Afghan adventures. Alcarillo 23:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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