Talk:Jolanda Čeplak
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[edit] Slovene vs Slovenian
In reply to User:24.42.180.29's question in the edit summary, 'What about how Jolanda feels? (www.jolandaceplak.com)':
It really doesn't matter in an encyclopaedia. It isn't likely that Jolanda wrote the text (it is in the third person after all), and even so, the text is horrible. If you don't expect us repeating errors such as 'to' for 'too' or using clearly Slovene sentence structures, it isn't sensible to expect us to use Slovenian in place of Slovene. The original author of the article, Scraggy4, used Slovene; since this is a valid form, you may not change it as per the Manual of Style. —Sinuhe 08:19, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
How about if somebody uses a dialect or slang style to start an entry?
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- 'Slovenian' is scarcely the internationally preferred term. I personally, and all of my acquaintances in Britain, have only ever used 'Slovene' as the adjective. It is favoured in British publications (for example, Prof Herrity's 'Slovene grammar') and in most dictionaries. According to the style guide, the original author's brand of English and therefore such terminology ought to be respected; if you could please stop your arbitrary crusade against the perfectly proper term 'Slovene', it would be much appreciated. —Sinuhe 19:27, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Scarcely? A simple search on the Internet will quash your conjecture. Indeed, over 2 million yahoo/google results for 'Slovenian' and a mere 250 thousand for 'Slovene'. A search on even the European Union's site has the same result: under 2000 document matches for 'Slovene', over 10,000 matches for 'Slovenian'!
Not only is it heavily favoured internationally, 'Slovenian' is the exclusive term used by the vast majority of Slovenian companies, the Chamber of Commerce and Industry of Slovenia (www.gzs.si/eng), the Slovenian Intellectual Property Office (www.uil-sipo.si), the Slovenian Philharmonic (www.filharmonija.si), and so on.
Both the University of Ljubljana and University of Maribor use 'Slovenian' (mostly) on their websites, as does the 'Slovenian Tourist Board (www.slovenia-tourism.si), while the Government of Slovenia unfortunately still uses both 'Slovenian' and 'Slovene' interchangeably.
Even most British newspapers today use 'Slovenian' (refer to www.wn.com). Virtually all Americans, Canadians, and Australians use 'Slovenian' exclusively, and so do FIFA, UEFA, and virtually every other major international organisation now.
With respect to the style guide, "stating that the original author's brand of English and therefore such terminology ought to be respected," I do not believe this case applies because the use of 'Slovene' negatively affects Slovenians such as myself. With enough people confusing Slovenia with Slovakia and Slavonia, those who support a clearly less popular and, in fact, dying term only make matters worse. --BT
- Look, we have had this discussion before. A Google search is not conducive to real-life usage. It may be that you prefer Slovenian as opposed to Slovene, but this does not automatically make it the internationally preferred variant, but merely on the Internet, in particular websites written in American English. It is a valid form regardless of your attitude towards it.
Of course Google and Yahoo are conducive to real-life usage. It is a fact that 'Slovenian' is the absolute dominant term internationally. In Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United States, the term 'Slovene' is virtually NEVER used.
- In fact, using your methodology, a Google search on Slovene websites (.si) appears to show more hits for Slovene than Slovenian, as does one on British websites (.uk). Still, this demonstrates little and has no useful value. The Oxford English Dictionary, which is based on a large corpus of written and spoken material, favours Slovene, as do all other recent British dictionaries.
The forgotten Oxford English Dictionary has little or no useful value here. How can you weigh one dictionary against world opinion and common practice? --BT
- Why would you assume that wn.com is a British newspaper? It is neither a newspaper, nor is it British; its headquarters are in New York. It uses American spellings throughout. It should not be surprising, then, that they prefer Slovenian to Slovene (although their website, as far as I can tell, features both terms) and Slovak to Slovakian.
Why would you assume that I assumed wn.com was a British newspaper? World News is a search engine of thousands of international newspapers--including British ones. The Guardian, The Mirror, The Daily Record... they all have employed use of the term 'Slovenian' in recent articles. Seeing the big picture now? --BT
- In the end, even if Slovenian seems to be marginally more popular on the Internet, this by no means allows you to change every instance of the term of which you are obviously not very fond. It is other people's prerogative to use the term they fancy, and, considering that it is not a misspelt word, but a perfectly valid and recognised form, it should be left intact in accordance with the Manual of Style. Provided, of course, that it does not cause inconsistency and that it fits in the general theme. Whilst I agree that using Slovene in an article about the American melting-pot might not be entirely appropriate if the rest of the article was written in American English, it is perfectly acceptable elsewhere, especially so if so written by the original author of any given article.
You are dreaming if you think 'Slovenian' is only marginally more popular than 'Slovene'. Being ten times more common is an example of pure dominance. Further, 'Slovenian' is not an American term. It's the internationally preferred term. Is even becoming slowly but surely more commonly used in the UK. In the rest of the world, it is the dominant term already and has been for many years. In ten years, 'Slovenian' will surpass 'Slovene' in usage even in the UK. --BT
- Quite honestly, I do not care how using the term Slovene affects you; it is certainly the preferred form of many other Slovenes – in fact, so far, I only know of you who seems to be displeased by it. Myself, I gasp in shock why anyone should want to use the Americanised spelling, and am therefore negatively affected by Slovenian. Either form may displease some, but since both are correct, you must not change them all to the one to your liking. It would be just like changing all instances of manoeuvre to maneuver because a Google search gives more hits for the latter; something which you are not allowed to do in Wikipedia. —Sinuhe 08:10, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Very weak. I already explained why those supporting a clearly less popular and dying term negatively impact Slovenians. What is your purpose for bringing up manoeuvre and maneuver again? Who does this affect? 'Slovene' is not to my liking. It is the internationally favoured term. I honestly could accept either one, but only one. --BT
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- You have neither proved that Slovenian is the more popular term in all English speaking countries, nor that using Slovene affects Slovenes in any negative way. Most of your reply is mere speculation; it is senseless to claim how usage will evolve in the next few years without any sort of proper evidence. A Google search does not demonstrate real-life usage, because it can only search through written communication that has been transferred to the Internet. Your so-called facts are only fanciful thinking. The Oxford English Dictionary is based on an enormous corpus of English usage, and has as a consequence, quite rightly so, some authority on the English language. In fact, as far as I know, all modern British English dictionaries list Slovene first, not only the OED.
Have you ever heard the term international pressure or international recognition? International does not mean 'consensus of everyone in the world'. 'Slovenian' is the term used by the vast majority of nations and people in the world, and its popularity is only growing.
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- And what do you mean by that again with manoeuvre?
Pardon my slip up. I had a mere 3 hours of sleep the other night and my thoughts (i.e. "Again with irrelevant arguments??") got mixed up with what I was trying to write.
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- Manoeuvre and maneuver are two possible spellings with the same meaning. Granted, they are merely different spellings, so perhaps another example is in order. Aeroplane and airplane are two different words denoting the same thing. This is exactly the same as Slovene and Slovenian. Both forms are recognised, and Wikipedia policy is to allow for either, regardless of popularity or some similar elusive and transitory concept like it. Therefore, stop your crusade.
The spelling of manoeuvre/maneuver has nothing to do with the argument that the support of a clearly less popular and dying term is hurting Slovenians already having trouble trying to distinguish themselves from Slovakia and Slavonia. I say 'Slovene' is indeed a dying term because 13 years ago 'Slovenian' and 'Slovene' had roughly an equal on the international scene, whereas now international organizations (Olympics, Uefa--A European association!) and the majority of Slovenian companies use exclusively 'Slovenian'. The reason 'Slovene' was as prevalent internationally (i.e. on the internet) was because most people were learning about Slovenia for the first time when she gained independence from Yugoslavia. Most dictionaries didn't even have Slovenia as an entry and old UK published books were many people's first source of reference. Meanwhile, Slovenians living in Australia (http://www.sloaus-inst.com/), Canada, and the United States have for decades been using the term 'Slovenian' and now its popularity is spreading to even the UK (refer to www.wn.com for those links to major British newspapers employing the term 'Slovenian' recently).
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- And if you are worried about mixing Slovene and Slovakian, I should believe it is best to stick to the shorter form. Or would you want to use the American Slovak in place of Slovakian as well?
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- Your argument, '"Slovene" is not to my liking,' gives others all the more reason not to trust your judgement in this respect.
Uhh..sure.
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- Also, if you will kindly stop posting this same message everywhere ... It does not provide any answers really. —Sinuhe 08:40, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
