User talk:John Hill

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[edit] Physical features of Jats

Hi John Hill, NPOV should be maintained. There may be modifications as per that policy. But you have deleted Physical features section which I could not understand. When you describe an object you have to write as it is. If nose is long you have to write that. If they are strong in physique you have to write that. What is racial feature here in describing a group of people whom British called Martial Race. When it is a race you have to write that. Physical features is one of criteria to study a race. I think it may added to the article. burdak 05:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Shri Burdak: I am sorry I have to disagree with you. The previous section on "Physical Features" which I deleted had many things wrong with it and was anything but "neutral."
First of all, there is no agreed-on definition of the physical characteristics which make up the so-called "Aryan race". Several groups have made claim to being descended from the "original Aryans", including people from the region around Herat and neighbouring parts of Iran (ancient Aria) and some Germans, notably the Nazis. Now, I am sure you will agree that, in general, Heratis, Germans and Jats look very different from each other - so all three claims cannot be accepted and, without convincing proof available one way or the other, one must remain neutral.
No one really knows what are "pure Aryan features," or "pure Aryan characteristics" are. I am sure many Heratis and Germans would not agree with this way of describing Jats, and may even be offended. That is why it is so important to retain a "neutral point of view" NPOV.
And what exactly do "pure Aryan", "unmistakably Aryan", and "non-Aryan features" mean? Have a look at the Wikipedia articles on Aryan and Aryan Race.
Similarly, just because an old British report referred to the Jats as a "Martial Race" does not necessarily mean that the Jat were a racially distinct group. In fact, it is probably best interpreted that the Report either meant that they were a significant threat to the British or that they provided good troops for the British forces in India. The word "race" has been so misused over the years, and can imply so many different things, it is now almost meaningless unless very carefully defined by the author. See the Wikipedia article on race.
Further, there was a long quote from a Dr. Birereton (with no proper references given) which was extremely simplistic and full of generalizations. Worse, it was very insulting of Jat people. Comments such as: "Their intellectual facilities are not brilliant partaking more of shrewedness and cunning than ability" and "The Jat women are of very strong physique exceeding man in this respect proportionately speaking. They are not remarkable for personal beauty . . ." These are outrageous generalizations mainly demonstrating the prejudices of Dr. Birereton and have no place in a serious reference work. John Hill 14:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Yarkand Governor's Guard.jpg

Coliseum the Cat
Coliseum the Cat

Hello John,

Thanks for posting this and lots of other good images to en.wikipedia. Somebody has just copied it to WIki Commons, so it could be more easily used elsewhere. Would you consider posting images in the future to Wiki Commons (commons.wikipedia.org) instead of en.wikipedia? (As long as an image can be posted under a free license, of course). It makes no difference as far as using the image in en.wikipedia is concerned, but this way they will be immediately accessible to editors in all languages' wikipedias (and potentially in other wiki projects), and will be visible in the context of wider categories that Wiki Commons has. Regards, --Vladimir (Vmenkov 08:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC))

John, it is absolutely the same syntax: e.g. [[Image:Coliseum-the-cat-0072.jpg|thumb|right|Coliseum the Cat]] picks my image from the commons just the same as if it were in en.wikipedia.com (where it is not). If the image exists in both places, then articles in the English wiki will pick the copy from the English wiki, and articles in other projects will pick it from the Commons. Cheers, --Vladimir (Vmenkov 07:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Pyenzhangling

Hi, there. Thanks for all your Tibet-related edits and pictures. I saw your edits to Milarepa's Cave and I wonder if you have an opinion about Pyenzhangling Monastery, which is up for deletion. Cheers, Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 07:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TRLV

Nice article. I'll do what I can to add to it, but it's good as it stands. Guettarda 13:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] awesome

I tagged Trinidad Regional Virus Laboratory with a stub tag yesterday. Thanks for expanding it and "un-stubbing" it. that really helps wikipedia out a lot. I would encourage you to keep working on it to make it better. For instance I would encourage you to you subject headings. check out WP:MOS for some guidlines. Thanks again. --Tainter 16:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prostration (Buddhism) image

Hi John -

From your User page, it sounds like you've had an extraordinary life. Thanks so much for sharing your many amazing journeys and impressive knowledge on Wikipedia.

I see you recently added an image to the Prostration (Buddhism) article. First, I'd like to thank you for doing so. Your images (and I've looked over a few) are generally very colorful and lively and add visual excitement to articles.

In regards to the particular image added to Prostration (Buddhism) (Image:Pilgrims prostrating at Jokhang.JPG), I hope you don't mind but I moved the image down lower in the article. I did so only after a good deal of experimentation with different configurations and reviewing the text. The reason for not leaving the image as you inserted it is that the initial insertion forced the existing navigational template to start the article with a large area of blank space to the left of the transcluded template which, I hope you could see, was visually confusing. So the question became, should the template be moved or the image.

Ultimately, because the thrust of the article is meant to focus on daily prostration practices and the image showed a Tibetan-specific full prostration on a pilgrimage from a birds-eye (non-practitioner) view, I reluctantly decided to move the image to the Tibetan-specific section of the article where non-daily prostrations are alluded to.

This wasn't an easy choice for me and I'd be happy to discuss this further with you. Whether your inclined to discuss it further or not, I'd like to simply thank you again for your sharing your wonderful experiences and wisdom. Best regards, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 10:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful understanding and kindness. In addition to your inspiring experiences and obvious intellect, you have a good heart. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 15:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Reverted Archives

Dear John Hill, Thanks for the action of restoring the deleted content from Jat talk page. It is OK.burdak 02:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yuezhi

I admit I don't know anything about the subject so I'm not good at referencing these articles. I'm copy editing a bunch of articles on Indian history for FA applications and so sometimes I try to upgrade the articles they link to so the FA application will stand a better chance. Also, sometimes I'm trying to understand enough to copy edit accurately. Maybe this is the wrong article anyhow -- I can't tell. The only book I have refers to Yueh-chi so the editor of the FA candidate maybe doesn't mean this article. An Asian tribe that invaded India? Sincerely, Mattisse 00:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being so unclear in my message. FA is Feature Article, meaning it has gone through a review process and been designated as such. I do copy editing for a person who writes history of India articles. He is Indian so he has trouble understanding how little I know. We just finished Hoysala Empire and Vijayanagara Empire which are now Feature Articles. (See the little star in the corner?) And if an article is considered really good, it can be featured on the Wikipedia main page — a new one is featured there every day. It is Wikipedia's way of trying to inspire editors to upgrade their articles. I am working on Western Chalukyas now as well as several other articles having to do with Indian dynasties/kingdoms/empires and their architecture, literature, society and so on. I know very little about India's history so sometimes I get very confused about what the article is trying to say. Somehow I must have reached Yuezhi because I thought that was the name of a Central Asian tribe that invaded India. I apologise for adding an inaccurate link. I can't image doing so on an article that I know nothing about!
{I just looked at the article's history and what I added was a tag that said it needed intext references. Not that I'm defensive or anything!) {{nofootnote|article}} puts a banner across the top of your page. It looks like an interesting article and I will read it. Thanks for the message and for being interested! From looking at your user page, it seems like we have several things in common. Sincerely, Mattisse 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Black Seminoles is a FA I notice! Mattisse 02:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] another FA

British African-Caribbean community - a completely original FA article by User:Zleitzen. We worked together on Fidel Castro until it became hopelessly political. Maybe it will calm down. Sincerely, Mattisse 04:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songtsän Gampo

It is normal practice in history to more ore less disregard hagiographic material that was compiled several centuries after the events described. It is not clear to my why this standard should be relaxed in Tibetan studies. While of course this material will contain some true material not found elsewhere it takes a lot of spade work to figure out what these nuggets of historicity are, and after all Wikipedia is not the place for orignal research. The Samye debates are a good example. No debate occured, and nothing occured at Samye. There was no winner and no loser, and Chinese style Buddhism (whatever that might be) was never surpressed in Tibet. Hoshan Mahayana was a real person, and was involved in scholarly discussion with his contemporaries. Some details e.g. the Nepali wife, are clearly made up, for starters her name Brkhuti (sp?) is the name of Avalokitesvara's second consort. Clearly someone thought along these lines -- Avalokitesvara is Songtsän Gampo, therefore Wencheng must be Tara and there must have been a second wife who was Nepalese named Brkhuti. Tibetologist 13:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The Songtsän Gampo article is looking much better. The Yeshe de project is a disaster though, and should be avoided as a source, e.g. why say 'some Dunhuang documents' when you could say 'the Old Tibetan Chronicle'. Also, if you are looking for a translation of the Tang Annals Pelliot's version is regarded as being much more accurate than Bushell's. But I cant read Chinese so who am I to say. Tibetologist 10:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thank you very much. Much appreciated! Guettarda 12:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on Songtsän Gampo

First on transliteration. I think the important thing is to use a system. Most people now use the Wylie system, but because of ethnocentrism anglophones outside of academia just don't seem to tolerate Srong rtsan sgam po. The other systems such as library of congress are worse and involve mor diacritics. The only system I know of that looks palatable to English readers is Tournadre's system which is explained in the appendix of his text book 'Manuel of Standard tibetan' he writes Songtsän Gampo the vowels e and ä are different in Lhasa Tibetan just like in southern Germany. I use the Tournadre system whenever I am editing Wikipedia articles. All other spellings that one sees Songsten Gampo Songtsem Gampo etc. are not part of any system and are just some persons ad hoc attempt to transcribe the way he thinks it is pronounced. Of course only the IPA can record how things are pronounced, and then one must decide on which dialect and where.

I do have DTH (Bacot et al) and i also have the collected works of Richardson, and a lot of other stuff I could send you, alas those two files are both over 10MG, so they cannot be sent with Gmail which is the account I use to send big files. If you are realy interested I could snail mail you my collection of Tibetan secondary literature. A warning though DTH is desperately out of date. There are better translations available in Chinese which it sounds like you can read, but none in European languages, though hopefully one will be published in the next year or so, if the rumour mill can be trusted. A good bibliography of Old Tibetan stuff as well of the texts themselves is available from the Old Tibetan Documents Online Project which will come up if you google it. Best, Tibetologist 13:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jat History group

John

The URL is

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

Ravi Chaudhary 21:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songtsen v. Songstän v. Srong rtsan

If you moved the page to Srong rtsan sgam po it would be moved back and people would get very mad at you. I have tried that sort of thing for other pages. Moving it to Songtsän Gampo would probably be a good idea, and hopefully no one would object to. Tibetologist 01:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Once more on Songsten Gampo

Hi John, I object to a birthplace and the tradition that he ascended the throne at 13 being included in the main portion rather than in the 'legends' section. I realize they are appropriately qualified, but since no evidence exists for them it seems better to put them in the other section. Also, Nepal only existed as a country starting in the 18th century, I dont know what Stein says in his book, since my copy is not at hand, but I would perfer that part be more precisely worded. Tibetologist 07:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nepal in the 9th century

Dear John, There are two issues around Nepal. One is that the word 'Nepal' traditionally refes only to the Kathmandu valley. It was after Prthvi Narayana Shah took over the countries neighboring his and moved his capital to Kathmandu that the modern state of Nepal was created. I think it is misleading to use a modern name in English implying contemporary geography and a historical continuity when refering to events in this early period.

Asise from that however, the location of the Nipuolo of the chinese is controversial. I think that Petech and Uray have written about this, but I cant remember exactly where. I think it is Petech who thinks that he proved that it refers to a place in contemporary Tibet. In any event, a lot of research has been done on Tibetan historical geography since Bushell. Tibetologist 23:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

REPLY
Thank you for your follow-up note. It has led me to check matters further in my collection of books on Tibet and related subjects and, I think, fairly convincingly resolved (that is - unless you can find substantial counter-arguments somewhere) this whole matter of Nipoluo = Nepal(?) and even has led to pretty well-established dates for the king the Tibetans are said to have put on the throne of Nipoluo.
First, I should say that I have been "quietly confident" all along that the "Nepalese" king mentioned in the Tangshu who was placed on his throne by the Tibetans, and is called, “Naling deva” in Bushell’s translation, was actually Narendradeva, a king of the Licchavi dynasty which ruled mainly in the Kathmandu valley and surrounds for hundreds of years. Now, the dating of Narendradeva’s reign has been fairly firmly fixed at circa 643- circa 679 from a series of inscriptions - and, as far as I know, there has been no serious questioning of these dates.
The fullest account that I have found of it all so far is in David Snellgrove’s Indo-Tibetan Buddhism: Indian Buddhists & Their Tibetan Successors, 2 Vols., Shambhala, Boston, 1987, Vol. II, pp. 369-372. (If you wish, I can scan and email these pages to you). Snellgrove also contains an English version of Lèvi’s French translation of the same passage on Nipoluo that I had previously quoted from Bushell, and he identifies the Nipoluo king as Narendradeva.
Gedun Choephel in The White Annals, Library of Tibetan Works & Archives, 1977, pp. 63-65, transcribes his name from ‘Scroll Ka’ as “Nariba” and his father as “Yusna Kug-te” and he discusses the relationship of these names to king Narendradeva and his father, which is given in the list below as: Bhi-ma-rjunadeva / Vis*n*ugupta, who reigned only briefly circa 640-641 until he was (according to the Tibetan accounts) usurped by a brother (or, at least, an uncle of Narendradeva).
For a list of the various Licchavi kings and their attributed dates, see: “A Kushan-period Sculpture from the reign of Jaya Varma-, A.D. 184/185. Kathmandu, Nepal.” by Kashinath Tamot and Ian Alsop © the authors and Asian Arts at: http://www.asianart.com/articles/jaya/kings.html
For a statue and inscription of a much earlier king from the Kathmandu Valley (and the names of the authors, etc), see: http://www.asianart.com/articles/jaya/index01_12.html

As soon as I can I will have another attempt at correcting and updating the article on Songtsen Gampo, and would appreciate any comments you might have then.

Cheers, John Hill 03:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] once more on Nepal

hi, This is getting interesting. It has been a couple years since I have worried about these details. The more you write the more I remember about it. We have the following equation ch. Nipoluo = Tib. Bal = En. Nepal. I know that Petech rejects this as well as the Naribaba = Narendradeva equation. I am still hunting down where he talks about it, but here is one thing I have found.

Petech, Luciano. “Glosse agli Annali di Tun-huang” Rivista degli Studi Orientali 42 241-279.

The translation from Italian is mine.

"Bal-po; summer residence of the minister: 675; summer residence of the king: 690, 695, 697, 699, 707-712, 718, 719, 722, 723. After the argument made by prof. Tucci it is by now pacifico that B, than in the modern language indicates Nepal, cannot have meant this in the Annals; and that above all because a Tibetan king could not recarsi to pass the summer in a relatively low and warm region. Bal-po is instead to be identified with the valley of Pa-Pu (b’uât puo), which following the Chinese was the residence of the Tibetan king together with Lhasa1 It is also identical to the lake Pa-pu (b’wat puo), the end point of a Chinese persons itinerary in Tibet2. Therefore it is probably to be sought in the zone of lake Palti or Yamdrok-tso. Bal-po contains the locality of Bri’u-tang, the summer residence of the king in 699 and the place of the summer meeting of the assembly in 725."

So Bal = Nepal, must be rejected. As a result, the equation Naribaba = Narendradeba also falls, since Naribaba was installed as kind of Bal, in the same text that Petech is discussing here. Tibetologist 09:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I just found this later in the same article.


La seconda interpretazione, già da me proposta altrove (192), si sosterebbe se Bal-po fosse il Nepal e Yu-sna-kug-ti e Na-ri-ba-ba fossero Visnugupta e Narendradeva della iscrizioni nepalesi. presenta tuttavia la difficoltà che questo sarebbe l'unico passo in tuti gli Annali in cui Bal-po indicherebbe il Neapl e non un distretto del tibet Centrale; in oltre i nomi nepalesi risulterebbero storpiati in maniera veramente eccessiva.

This still leaves us with the Nipuluo problem. But in any event if the equation goes into the Songtsän Gampo article it should have the caveat that Petech was not convinced. Tibetologist 09:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

HI mate love your Tibet pictures I love the place too although have never been! I was the one who added the interior sections to Potala and Tashilhunpo and created Shalu Monastery and Ramoche Temple. I have just added a lot of work on Lhasa which has imporved considerably. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 12:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jat people

Thanks for your kind message John.

The Jat page has a lot of bias and wild claims.

We need to work together to correct this.

Some fanatic users who may be suffering inferiority complexes are claiming ancient kingdoms as Jat kingdoms, which is wrong and unethical. Can you help me in this area?

You have done much good work so far especially on the Harshavardhana part, keep it up for the sake of article.--Rahpal 17:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hola John

Hola John. Mi espanol es bastante bueno pero quiero aprender hablar con fluidez. Quisiera visitar todas de los paises del Mundo incluido Myanmar. Me gusta tambien fotografias! Hi how are you? I am just wondering how you know about my Spanish? You want me to write that article on SPanish wikipedia? I am very busy but I am sure I can briefly start it some time if you like. I am currently working on The Maltese Falcon (1941 film). What do you want done?

Yes I noticed the great Songsten Gampo page was a bit untidy and poor. It should be a great article. I have recently added the city box and history section to Lhasa a place I'd very much love to visit although quite different today from the 1940s! You are a very well travlled man I see! Saludos amigo ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 12:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Don't be biased

Hi Dear John Hill, I have gone through your recent edits and notes. It seems there is some bias in your edits against Jats. Firstly you deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred. You deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted. Entries from discussion pages are not to be deleted. Secondly you mentioned that Swami Dayananda has not mentioned about Jats simply on the basis of Online Edition of Satyartha Prakash. Here it is to be made clear that in his book Satyartha Prakash he has mentioned about Jats specifically a story of Jatji and Popji in which he ridicules the orthodox philosophy of Brahmans and how Jatji rectified. He has also given chronology of Aryan rulers in Satyartha Prakash. Before deletion you should be fully sure. Thirdly you deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion. Lastly you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion. You contributed minimum contents to this article on Jats but doing the deletion work regularly. When you do not have any content to contribute then how can you decide which content needs deletion lacking the facts when references are already there. The historians who have mentioned these linkages are not Jats only but from all castes of Indian society. So it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community. The existence of more than 3000 clans in the Jat caste shows its social diversity and should be considered as a testimony that these have been rulers in ancient times. In India the social groups have been always aligned with the ruling people. Because of this fact we find many clans common in Jats, Rajputs and Gujars, as they have been rulers at different periods in history. I have also seen your comments on Raphal’s discussion page where you write as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. It appears that your discussion with Ravi Chaudhary has made you to be biased. I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents. burdak 10:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Shree Burdak - “history” versus “legend”

Dear Shree Burdak: It seems to me that we have had this discussion in various forms several times already and it is certainly getting to be very tiresome, repetitive and long-winded. I will try once more to make myself clear – but if these differences continue I will have to appeal for help from the Wikipedia Administrators. I apologise in advance for the length of my reply but you have raised a number of points and made a number of accusations.

What I have objected to on the Jat page have been the many and regular confusions between legendary material and well-documented historical events as well as unsupported, or misquoted (and even sometimes falsely supported or attributed) claims made by various writers.

Even worse, perhaps, have been the grossly inflated claims and frequent racist comments, showing that this page has been made the forum of some ruthless people with a very low regard for accuracy and truth.

As you are well aware, many other readers have also been complaining about these issues and there have been numerous arguments on these Talk pages about them – it is not just me as you seem to be implying.

This continuing bickering and re-editing is a huge waste of time. I suggest that the whole matter should be reported to Administrators to check the article and all the many references and maybe “lock it”, or restrict access to it after that process is completed.

However, as you specifically refer to edits I have made, I will take this opportunity to answer them (again) one by one, in the order in which you brought them up.

Point 1a: You have made the comment that I have: “deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred.”

As I did not have a copy of the book available, I did check the on-line version at: http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/editorsnote.html which claims to be the full scanned text of the first 37 chapters of Geiger’s book, which are, apparently, the only sections he referred to as the Mahavamsa. One can only assume that p. 27 of his printed book (which you refer to) must have been included in this scan – especially as it is claimed to be from the Mahavamsa. Just to be certain, though, I will try to obtain his book on inter-library loan and then check again and report back to this Talk Page. (This process will likely take several weeks as I live in a very remote region). In the meantime, if anyone has the book and could send me a scan of this page – please email it to me –with all the publishing details (my email address is available on my User Page).

Point 1b: You state that I “deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted.” This is completely untrue! I removed the so-called quote from the body of the main article – not the discussion page – have a look at the appropriate entries for 11 January 2007. Please stop distorting the truth and attacking me unfairly!

Point 1c: I have discussed in detail my reasons for my suspicions about this so-called quote from the Mahavamsa more than once. In fact I asked you as early as 4th November last year (see Archives of this Talk Page) to show proof that such a quote really exists – you have still to answer me.

Point 2. What do you have against on-line books? When a published book is properly scanned there should be the whole text of the original. I checked the whole text of the English translation of the Satyartha Prakash by Swami Dayananda, Sarasvati, Chiranjiva Bharadwaja, Published 1975, Sarvadeshik Arya, Pratinidhi Sabha, 732 pages, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=920AAAAAMAAJ&vid=OCLC05080824&dq=Dayananda+Sarasvati&q=Jat&pgis=1#search I have checked for keywords such as “Jat” (and all words beginning with these three letters including “Jatji”), as well as “Popji” and other key words – without any of them occurring in the text. If you can show how and where the so-called references you are interested in occur in the printed book but not the on-line version – please do so.

Point 3: You say I: “deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion.”

If you check the many notes I have made you will see that I have clearly pointed out that there is no general agreement amongst scholars on the family background of Kanishka, or the Mauryas, the evidence is extremely sparse and insufficient at the moment to prove anything. Just because someone makes a claim in print does not mean it is worthy of being included in the Wikipedia. For example: if someone published a book claiming Abraham, Adam, or Muhammad were Celts – should this be inserted in the Wikipedia as if it was worthy of consideration?

Point 4: You state: “. . . you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion.”

I really don’t know how to answer this but, I can assure you that the vast majority of people in the world would find it rather hard to believe that Krishna had 16,000 wives. I am not critical of your religious beliefs – you are quite entitled to hold them – but please don’t expect other people to accept what you say as fact, even if it is found in some ancient scripture. If you discussed them as religious traditions and properly qualified them, I would have no argument with you – but that is not how they were presented.

If Krishna really had that many wives and died in 3102 BCE (as you have previously stated), he is very probably an ancestor of all of us – so why claim him specifically as a Jat? Why quote a Persian Muslim author who lived some four thousand years later as an authority on this subject? Furthermore, why quote someone (Alberuni) who claims he is descended from a Sudra woman if you are trying to prove he was a Jat? And, finally, if one wishes to quote from Alberuni about Krishna – should the story about Krishna’s partner (and mother?) came from a Jat family of “low Śûdra people” be included – not just the “sanitised” statement that Krishna “was a Jat.”

Point 5: I can see nothing wrong in deleting what I see as false or misleading information, legendary material presented as facts, and racially supremacist propaganda from any article (and I assure you I do the same on other pages I come across). I have had little to add to the more than ample coverage of Jats. I am well aware that “it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community.” You will notice that there are huge portions of the article (in fact the majority of it) I have never questioned or discussed. There is no need for me, as you suggest, to add to the already very detailed accounts of Jat history – only to point out and/or remove questionable or falsified material.

In general, I have great admiration for Jat people and their history and am proud to have had many fine and close Jat friends. If I was a Jat I would be glad to tell the world of my ancestors’ background and history – and there would be no need at all for me to make up fanciful stories. But I would be very embarrassed and angry if I found members of my own people making false or unsubstantiated boastful claims.

In fact, I have frequently found myself facing up to “white” racists in many countries, and I believe it is my duty to speak up when this happens and not go along with it. Sometimes I have been able to reason people out of their hatreds, but I must admit that it has more often been quite ugly and frightening and I have been badly beaten for it more than once. I can’t say this has made my life easier or happier, but at least I can, after all these years, still look in the mirror and not despise myself for a coward on such issues.

Most large groups of people contain fanatic minorities who distort the past to suit their own ends, or to compensate for feelings of hurt or inferiority – especially people who have been colonised or ruled by others and had to face their scorn, and who then compensate by trying to assert their superiority over others. This is, however, a very dangerous game (just look at the horrific lessons of the last century in this regard). So, Shree Burdak, I become a very persistent critic when I see this developing and try to nip it in the bud. This is not to say that I will always be right, I am very likely to make mistakes on one or another point, but the large number of distorted statements on these pages in the past, and the many criticisms from other readers confirm that something has gone really wrong here and needs to be addressed seriously and with goodwill.

Finally, you claim I write on Raphal’s discussion page: “as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. . . . I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents.”

I can only answer that everything I have done has been done openly and in good faith in an attempt to improve what has seemed to me (and obviously to quite a few others) a badly flawed article. I will quote here what I said on Rahpal’s page for everyone to judge for themselves if I am guilty of what you accuse me of: “I like the way you have written the qualifications to the claims that have been made on the Jat People page about ancient Indian rulers being Jats. Hopefully this will satisfy everyone and bring this particular argument to an end.”

And on that note I will close this over-long reply.

Sincerely, John Hill 15:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Mr John Hill

Thanks Mr John Hill for your long reply. I have two points to reply urgently. Firstly Geiger’s book,referred to as the Mahavamsa. p. 27 of printed book was requested by me to verify because I do not have a copy of it. Since you are working on the subject kindly ensure from print book and let us know all. I am in too interior area to have access to a library right now. We will wait for your confirmation.

Second point to clarify about Satyarthprakash is that Arya Samaj Jamnagar (Read Vedas and Satyarthprakash on-line) is online but is not complete. I have with me a hindi copy of Satyarthprakash by Arsh Sahitya prachar trust. It has got the story I mentioned in Ch-11 on pages 234-36. It is in Hindi and is produced below -

सत्यार्थ प्रकाश में जाटजी और पोपजी की कहानी

एक जाट था । उसके घर में एक गाय बहुत अच्छी और बीस सेर दूध देने वाली थी । दूध उसका बड़ा स्वादिष्‍ट होता था । कभी-कभी पोपजी के मुख में भी पड़ता था । उसका पुरोहित यही ध्यान कर रहा था कि जब जाट का बुड्ढ़ा बाप मरने लगेगा तब इसी गाय का संकल्प करा लूंगा । कुछ दिन में दैवयोग से उसके बाप का मरण समय आया । जीभ बन्द हो गई और खाट से भूमि पर ले लिया अर्थात् प्राण छोड़ने का समय आ पहुंचा । उस समय जाट के इष्‍ट-मित्र और सम्बन्धी भी उपस्थित हुए थे । तब पोपजी पुकारा कि "यजमान ! अब तू इसके हाथ से गोदान करा ।" जाट १० रुपया निकाल कर पिता के हाथ में रखकर बोला - "पढ़ो संकल्प !" पोपजी बोला - "वाह-वाह ! क्या बाप बारम्बार मरता है ? इस समय तो साक्षात् गाय को लाओ, जो दूध देती हो, बुड्ढी न हो, सब प्रकार उत्तम हो । ऐसी गौ का दान करना चाहिये ।"

जाटजी - हमारे पास तो एक ही गाय है, उसके बिना हमारे लड़के-बालों का निर्वाह न हो सकेगा इसलिए उसको न दूंगा । लो २० रुपये का संकल्प पढ़ देओ ! और इन रुपयों से दूसरी दुधार गाय ले लेना ।

पोपजी - वाहजी वाह ! तुम अपने बाप से भी गाय को अधिक समझते हो ? क्या अपने बाप को वैतरणी नदी में डुबाकर दु:ख देना चाहते हो । तुम अच्छे सुपुत्र हुए ? तब तो पोपजी की ओर सब कुटुम्बी हो गये, क्योंकि उन सबको पहिले ही पोपजी ने बहका रक्खा था और उस समय भी इशारा कर दिया । सबने मिलकर हठ से उसी गाय का दान उसी पोपजी को दिला दिया । उस समय जाट कुछ भी न बोला । उसका पिता मर गया और पोपजी बच्छा सहित गाय और दोहने की बटलोही को ले अपने घर में गाय-बच्छे को बाँध बटलोही धर पुन: जाट के घर आया और मृतक के साथ श्मशानभूमि में जाकर दाहकर्म्म कराया । वहाँ भी कुछ-कुछ पोपलीला चलाई । पश्‍चात् दशगात्र सपिण्डी कराने आदि में भी उसको मूंडा । महाब्राह्मणों ने भी लूटा और भुक्खड़ों ने भी बहुत सा माल पेट में भरा अर्थात् जब सब क्रिया हो चुकी तब जाट ने जिस किसी के घर से दूध मांग-मूंग निर्वाह किया । चौदहवें दिन प्रात:-काल पोपजी के घर पहुँचा । देखा तो पोपजी गाय दुह, बटलोई भर, पोपजी की उठने की तैयारी थी । इतने में ही जाटजी पहुँचे । उसको देख पोपजी बोला, आइये ! यजमान बैठिये !


जाटजी - तुम भी पुरोहित जी इधर आओ ।

पोपजी - अच्छा दूध धर आऊँ ।

जाटजी - नहीं-नहीं, दूध की बटलोई इधर लाओ ।

पोपजी बिचारे जा बैठे और बटलोई सामने धर दी ।

जाटजी - तुम बड़े झूठे हो ।

पोपजी - क्या झूठ किया ?

जाटजी - कहो, तुमने गाय किसलिए ली थी ?

पोपजी - तुम्हारे पिता के वैतरणी नदी तरने के लिए ।

जाटजी - अच्छा तो तुमने वहाँ वैतरणी के किनारे पर गाय क्यों न पहुँचाई ? हम तो तुम्हारे भरोसे पर रहे और तुम अपने घर बाँध बैठे । न जाने मेरे बाप ने वैतरणी में कितने गोते खाये होंगे ?

पोपजी - नहीं-नहीं, वहाँ इस दान के पुण्य के प्रभाव से दूसरी गाय बनकर उसको उतार दिया होगा ।

जाटजी - वैतरणी नदी यहाँ से कितनी दूर और किधर की ओर है ?

पोपजी - अनुमान से कोई तीस करोड़ कोश दूर है । क्योंकि उञ्चास कोटि योजन पृथ्वी है और दक्षिण नैऋत दिशा में वैतरणी नदी है ।

जाटजी - इतनी दूर से तुम्हारी चिट्ठी वा तार का समाचार गया हो, उसका उत्तर आया हो कि वहाँ पुण्य की गाय बन गई, अमुक के पिता को पार उतार दिया, दिखलाओ ?

पोपजी - हमारे पास 'गरुड़पुराण' के लेख के बिना डाक वा तारवर्की दूसरा कोई नहीं ।

जाटजी - इस गरुड़पुराण को हम सच्चा कैसे मानें ?

पोपजी - जैसे हम सब मानते हैं ।

जाटजी - यह पुस्तक तुम्हारे पुरषाओं ने तुम्हारी जीविका के लिए बनाया है । क्योंकि पिता को बिना अपने पुत्रों के कोई प्रिय नहीं । जब मेरा पिता मेरे पास चिट्ठी-पत्री वा तार भेजेगा तभी मैं वैतरणी नदी के किनारे गाय पहुंचा दूंगा और उनको पार उतार, पुन: गाय को घर में ले आ दूध को मैं और मेरे लड़के-बाले पिया करेंगे, लाओ ! दूध की भरी हुई बटलोही, गाय, बछड़ा लेकर जाटजी अपने घर को चला ।

पोपजी - तुम दान देकर लेते हो, तुम्हारा सत्यानाश हो जायेगा ।

जाटजी - चुप रहो ! नहीं तो तेरह दिन लों दूध के बिना जितना दु:ख हमने पाया है, सब कसर निकाल दूंगा । तब पोपजी चुप रहे और जाटजी गाय-बछड़ा ले अपने घर पहुँचे ।

जब ऐसे ही जाटजी के से पुरुष हों तो पोपलीला संसार में न चले । Regards, burdak 17:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tibet

Yes I have travelled a bit I have been to Hawaii, Malaysia, THailand (James Bond island) as well , Singapore 4 times Bali and Lombok , Hong Kong but I would love to go to Tibet. One thing that would be ggreat would be to fly to Kathmandu in Nepal and do one of those ardous treks through the Himilayas to Lhasa. It would be amazing. So depsite the many places you have visited you still regard it as the most special place? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 18:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou so much for your note. That REALLY helps! Your trip sounds so amzing!! i would love to be free to roam in a landrover or something and visit monasteries and sites well outside Lhasa which still not fully commericalized. I don't know what is it but I can't stop thinking about that place!! THailand was pretty amazing but it just looks incredible hopefully I can visit within a year. I have started a few stubs on lesser known Tibetan monasteries including a nunnery! - see Category:Buddhist monasteries in Tibet -maybe you have visited them? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 14:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Muru Ningba Monastery perhaps? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 14:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You inspired me today check out Tibet article now. Improved or what? I have also kitted most of the Dalai Lamas with images!! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 18:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I also started Economy of Tibet although it needs to be more neutralised and copy edited ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 22:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi John -I've propsed a New WikiProject Tibet to cordinate Tibetan article better -many are neglected by the CHinese project -ut seems to be winning support -care to join it - evne if you attatch your name to it it will help. Thanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 20:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Your friend the Tibetologist still doesn't reply. I consider it quite rude. And he has deleted all my work on Tibet and Lhasa. Surely there is some near factual evidence pre 15th century. Lhasa was not suddenly created in the 15th century. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" "S.P.E.C.T.R.E" 14:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Hi John, thank you for the star! As I admire your own content creation (especially on arcane subject of Central Asian history) I think I owe you one as well. Just let me look for the most appropriate one. Best regards. PHG 06:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome to VandalProof!

Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, John Hill! You have now been added to the list of authorized users, so if you haven't already, simply download and install VandalProof from our main page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or any other moderator, or you can post a message on the discussion page. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 03:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tanguts and Songstän Gampo

It was my impression that the Tanguts didnt really immerge as historical until around 900, so I am rather surprized to read that Songtsän Gampo fought with them. Cam this poiht be elaborated any further? Also, can we cut out some of the wierd spellings at the very begining, redirects exist in all those places anyhow? Tibetologist 05:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Please help out the recently started Wikipedia:WikiProject Tibet which I proposed and got the green light by joining. It would great to gather some more people associated with Tibetan articles. Also could you speak to the Tibetologist he hasn't replied to me yet. THanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 15:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Great! PLeas see Talk:Songtsän Gampo. This is the tag for histrocial and religous issues in Tibet which are not related to China. THis is the first step I think. To connect them into ourrpoject ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 12:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: A big thank you

No problem. I found it pretty funny what one little word can do. I've made it my goal (at least in the short-term; I don't know how long it will last) to patrol all anonymous edits to the Image namespace. Chances are I might see your vandal again. See you around maybe! BazookaJoe 16:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chilies in kathmandu

Hi John,

That picture of the Chilies drying in Kathmandu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chillies_drying_in_Kathmandu.jpg

I was born and raised in Kathmandu. I am now based in New Zealand. That picture looks to be taken right outside my Grandparents house in Kathmandu.

Was that area by any chance Naradevi Kathmandu?

It'd be great to know where that picture in Kathmandu was taken.

Amazing coincidence if it is actually my grandparents house!!

Thanks,

Rob —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.236.193.225 (talk) 01:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Reply to Chilies in Kathmandu

Hi Rob! Glad to hear about the picture, and to know it must bring back memories. I have to admit that, after all these years, I cannot be certain exactly where it was taken in Kathmandu but - if my memory is correct - it was in one of the side streets - just a block or two away from the main old centre of the city. Hope that is some help. Sorry I can't be more exact - but if your grandparents lived near there it probably is of their house. I hope so! Cheers and best wishes, John Hill 03:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo Franz Luthi Sepik River initiations 1975, 6.JPG

Dear John,

I work for a design agency in The Netherlands. We are currently working on an Annual Report for one of our clients. For this publication we would like to use Franz Luthi's photo "Sepik River initiations 1975, 6.JPG". I saw that you have been given permission to publish it on Wikipedia. Do you have any idea where I can acquire this photo in a bigger resolution/technical size (usable for printing) and where I can inquire about the copyrights?

I hope to hear from you soon. You can also e-mail me on sander@dietwee.nl

Kind regards,

Sander Toth Dietwee Design & Communication Utrecht, The Netherlands

Toth dietwee 09:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Toth dietwee (talk • contribs) 09:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Regarding photo of Sepik River Initiation

Thanks for your inquiry about the Sepik River initiation photo. I will contact Franz and ask him what he thinks. Unfortunately, if he cannot find the negatives (and I don't think he can), we will have to work with a scan of an old and faded photo. If Franz agrees I could send you a higher resolution scan and maybe you could do some editing to improve the faded colours? I will leave another note here as soon as I get an answer from Franz. Cheers, John Hill 11:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks John. You see he wiped out all the pre 15th century info on lhasa even songsten gampo detail and jokang which I thought quite damaging to the article. I have reworded it now to say there is cinsiderable debate over the factual correctness of early lhasa history on much of what has been passed down the generations is word of mouth. I really think evne mentioning early myth even if it is not completely correct is better than nothing at all. I there any evidence to suggest that jokhang wasn't built before the 15th century and the involvement of gampo in Lhasa?? Sorry I found it a little odd he was wiped out from Lhasa history, I have still had no response from the Tibetolist despite my friendly advances on about five different occasions. I also siad that his considerable knowledge would be a great asset for WP tibet but nothing. Ah well. I hope you are well anyway. I se another member has joined the project!! All the best ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" "S.P.E.C.T.R.E" 11:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ai Khanoum

Hi John! I share your doubts on the foundation stone story, especially as it is something I have never heard of in any other material on Ai Khanoum. The article is from the BBC however, so I hope there is some reliable information somewhere. Best regards. PHG 04:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi John! Thank you for the great info on Ai Khanoum. Even the BBC is not immune from spin I guess. Given the current situation at Ai Khanoum, the authenticity and origin of the objects is probably unsure as well. Congratulation for the research: who spoke about History being detective work? Best regards PHG 05:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi John! You're totally right on the quote. I wasn't sure myself how to handle it, and you're right we would need an agreement to release the statement. Best regards. PHG 18:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silk Road

Hi John. I thought it was written somewhere that redirects should be avoided where possible. If Silk Route is a more appropriate term than Silk Road, would it not be better to rename the article to Silk Route, thereby still avoiding the use of redirects? Personally I have no preference either way. Sorry for any inconvenience caused. --Rebroad 13:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monitor lizard intelligence

I swear I have monitor lizard watched, really, I do. However, I somehow missed your reply on the talk page, and just now responded. Please continue our conversation on the talk page. Enuja 03:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'm done for the day, living in North America and all. I've done some editing on the intelligence section and explained myself on the talk page. Enuja 05:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jat people

Hi there,

I know you have done good work on this page in terms of it's policing. Can I request you seek professional help from wikipedia for this as this page is getting ridiculous. I have every faith Burdak and his crew are trolling me even into this page and will no doubt make a reference to this on the Jat page.

But I am sad to see that a white gentleman is the only sane person trying to get at the truth of this community, whilst the extremist members of this community are themselves trying to destroy it with lies and legends trying to rival other races....even Nordics!

Good luck sir and thank you for keeping patience so far.

--Mein hoon don 12:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

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