User talk:John Hamer

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Welcome!

Hello, John Hamer, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Flockmeal 02:25, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

A hearty welcome. I invite you to sign in at [The Latter Day Saint Movement Project] and to Watch that page for interesting project developments, polls, and discussions. If you have any questions at all, feel free to visit my talk page. Tom H. 21:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent work on articles John - completely impressed. I wish I had the time you do to write. I do hope you join the project and also add the new Mormonism article to List of articles about Mormonism. Keep up the good work. -Visorstuff 20:16, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi guys --- thanks for the welcome and for the words of encouragement! I went to the project and I added myself as a participant.--John Hamer 21:18, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Welcome and thanks for all the good edits and energy - we could use it. Example (talk • contribs) 13:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to welcome you too. Just took a look at what you've been doing the past month, and I think you're exactly what the Latter Day Saint project needs. I was hoping someone would come along and start beefing-up some of the non-CoJCoLDS material. I'm extremely pleased that you are a member of JWH and MHA, and that you're published. COGDEN 23:54, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks guys --- I really appreciate the votes of confidence! I'm continuing to make my rounds and will be fleshing out more articles. :) --John Hamer 03:14, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi John. I'm very impressed by the work you've done recently. One small niggle though: notice that when you move a page, the links to it become get redirected (which only really only bothers pedants like me), but links that were already redirects break completely: witness for example the link tagged 'Temple Endowment' on the page Adamic language. (Or the redirection becomes non-automatic, more precisely.) I'll fix these myself as I get the chance, but you should probably be aware, if you're going to be moving a number of pages. (But once again, excellent job.) Alai 02:48, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good point, Alai! I'm starting to notice more how all these things work and fit together. I've done lots of broad strokes stuff --- now I think I need to go back and clean up some of the little details, like the links and other things like references --- to make things more tidy. --John Hamer 03:00, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for you contributions on Emma Smith's life. Finally we can say we have a real article on Emma. --Dbolton 02:00, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome Dbolton. I agree that her article was an important need and I enjoyed working on it. --John Hamer 14:53, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comment on structure for Leadership callings

Hi - I have set up a sample article on Bishops with a little bit of different format and was wondering if I could get some early feedback as to direction. Thx - Jim Trödel|talk 16:19, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I replied on your sandbox page. --John Hamer 17:48, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks - I like the idea of Hierarchy - good word btw, I was unhappy with ecliasiastical structure. I do think there is an argument for not following the Mormonism standard because each church would have a seperate hierarchy - but as I think about it - it is a good place to start and the nature of the hierarchy (being based on the fact that the president of the church is a prophet) brings enough similarity for them to be in one article to start. Thx for your comments Trödel|talk 18:13, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] tagging your uploaded images

Thanks for uploading Image:JS3 nauvoohome.jpg. I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use {{gfdl}} if you release it under the GFDL, or {{fairuse}} if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much, Squallwc 15:57, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are a few choices. "Permission is given for use on Wikipedia only, and does not include third parties" license is what you want I think, but it is General non-free licenses which is not allowed. I suggest you use Creative Commons Licenses or release it to Public Domain. The tags is at image copyright tag. Paste the tag of the license you choose to the image page. Or tell me and I apply the license for you. :) Squallwc 05:58, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oliver Cowdery

I just wanted to thank you for the expansion you did on Oliver Cowdery - goog work Trödel|talk 13:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Trodel. Still a bit more to do on Book of Mormon witnesses. Poor Hyrum Smith needs a lot of help still! --John Hamer 20:03, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mostly Offline Feb. 27 – Mar. 13

I am going on vacation to Costa Rice between Feb. 27 and Mar. 13. As a result, I will have fairly limited Internet access. --John Hamer 14:41, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm back! Had a great time. :) --John Hamer 00:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Auditorium and Temple

In case you don't have these on watchlist, I added information on the pipe organs in each building. Also check out the new links in the Temple article to Gyo Obata and Chambered Nautilus shell (the Holmes poem is eerie, no?). I was tempted to put the nautilus pic next to yours except the spiral runs ccw instead of cw. And I think your pics look great. --Blainster 00:27, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wow, cool work Blainster --- thanks! --John Hamer 00:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] LDS Bios

While you were away, I've been working on a number of early LDS bios, primarily of the first Quorum of Twelve. Some of those have been placed in the peer review category. Please look them over. Comments welcome. WBardwin 02:45, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Exceptional Newcomer Award

Hiya John Hamer. I know you've been around a while now, but I'd like to award you the Exceptional Newcomer Award in recognition of the hard work you put in as a newbie (see Wikipedia:Barnstars on Wikipedia). Better late than never, right? You can add the image to your big user page if you decide to accept, that's what most people do. But you don't have to, of course. Have a nice day. :) Cookiecaper 16:22, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Cookiecaper! Since my first newbie moments, I have been utterly swamped with work and other commitments which has forced me to pull back and be way less productive on Wikipedia lately. However, as soon as it is possible, I'll be back to my old ways. --John Hamer 00:25, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Marsh and Hyde and the Emotions of the Time

Thanks for your research and work on this particular LDS incident. I have not been avoiding working on the topic. I read your earlier note on the Marsh talk page and have been thinking about your comments. In fact, struggling a little. The emotions of this period -- devotion, anger, betrayal, despair -- are so strong and are such an essential part of the story that I really don't know how to address them in the articles. But they need to be addressed. They actually are the POV of the time. Generations later, the histories and folklore we "know", all from the perspectives of our ancestors, reflect those emotions and people's reactions to them. Even if the Marsh/cream story can be discounted, little personal incidents had a major impact on people's decisions at the time (as they do for us today). This is reflected in journals of the period. People were offended by a little thing, and then found justification for their feelings and actions in the bigger events surrounding them. I'd be interested in your perspective. You can find some notes and musings on User:WBardwin/claypit if you have interest. Thanks again for the primary source and your dilligence. WBardwin 17:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi, WBardin. Thank you! I thoroughly agree with your point about how little, personal things can influence people's emotions and that can effect their behavior --- a problem historians sometimes have is that they want to explain history in a way that makes logical sense, but the fact is that people are not always logical. I also agree that "story" is the most valuable component to "history". Little details, personal narratives, individual observations --- these are what make history come to life and give it meaning to readers. As a result, I don't lightly discount George A. Smith's story --- (in my edit I didn't say it was false; I just said it wasn't supported by contemporary evidence). If George A. Smith had written the story in his journal in the 1830s, or if there was any kind corroboration for the story, I would much more ready to believe that the event had occured and that it may have had an impact on Marsh's decisions. As it is, I think that it's possible there's a kernel of truth there, but that the major reasons were the ones Marsh cited at the time.

I agree that these events were very emotional, especially for the people at the time, and that almost all of the problems occurred because of exaggerated reports and false rumors. I'll write out my personal take on the Mormon War here, but I'm going to read your musings first. --John Hamer 17:54, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please keep in mind my musings are over a period of time, and aren't really an essay. The bit about Mormons being guilty of being emotional was in response to something another project member (Tom?) said in another context. But I keep thinking that discussing the emotions of the time would help our readers understand these extreme events, in articles like the Mormon War and the Succession Crisis. If carefully drafted, would it add perspective? A hard issue. WBardwin 19:16, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My Take on the Missouri Mormon War

My take on the war isn't too far removed from what Generals Atchison and Doniphon expressed when they were in the middle of it:

"The citizens of Daviess, Coroll, and some other normal counties have raised mob after mob for the last two months for the purpose of driving a group of fanatics, (called mormons) from those counties and from the State. These things have at length goaded the mormons into a state of desparation that has now made them the aggressors instead of acting on the defensive. This places the citizens of this whole community in the unpleasant attitude that the civil and decent part of the community now have to engage in war to arrest a torrent that has been let loose by a cowardly mob, and from which they have dastardly fled on the first show of danger" (LeSueur, p. 145)

My personal view is this: In 1836, Doniphon worked with Missouri church leaders --- the Whitmers, W.W. Phelps, John Corrill, Cowdery --- to create a compromise over the Jackson County impasse. The compromise was that the state would set aside a county for the Mormons and the Mormons would confine themselves there. Smith and Rigdon arrived, having been forced to flee their creditors in Ohio and having lost control of the church and temple there to dissenters. They resolved to keep control over the church in Missouri. Because of their late trials in Ohio, they began their relationships with non-Mormons in Missouri on the wrong foot. They expelled the Whitmers and Cowdery from the church and immediately laid plans to expand beyond the limits of Caldwell County. These two decisions — premature expansion beyond Caldwell and expulsion of the dissenters from Caldwell — were the primary causes of the war.

I agree with Doniphon that the problems began when the Latter Day Saints "commenced forming a settlement in Davis [sic] county, which, under their agreement, they had no right to do" (Saint's Herald p. 28:230). Although this agreement had no legal standing, it was impolitic and ultimately dangerous to break it. It was also premature. My own work Northeast of Eden: A Historical Atlas of Missouri's Mormon County shows that Caldwell County was not yet in danger of being over-crowded. It would have been more sensible to act more slowly and with greater caution. If the church had built its foundation, if they had waited 2 or 3 years until Caldwell was built up, it would have been nearly impossible to expel the Mormons. The wise man builds his house upon the rock --- a firm foundation would have made the Mormons' position much less precarious.

It also seems clear that the Missourians would have been prepared to compromise in the end and let the Mormons settle in (and take control of) Daviess County and perhaps the Bunkham Strip as well. However, the extremely premature settlement of DeWitt as a "4th Stake of Zion" was reckless. Yes, it was legal, but not all legal things are wise.

Expelling the dissenters was just as serious. The presidency expressed their belief that it was the right of the Mormon community to expel an unwanted minority. In proclaiming this "right" the church unwittingly and ironically justified the right of the residents of Jackson County to expel the Mormons and the right of the state of Missouri to expel the Mormons. All of these expulsions were unjust.

The worst elements of the membership threatened the dissenters out, the presidency encouraged them, and cooler heads among the Mormons (like Corrill and Marsh) were forced to remain silent.

The result is that a "mob" spirit began to overtake both the Mormons and the Missourians. As Doniphan points out, the worst elements in Daviess and Carroll Counties (and elsewhere) formed illegal vigilante groups and began to harrass Mormons and destroy their property. The Mormons responded in force by forming their own illegal vigilante groups which harrassed non-Mormons and destroyed their property. This culminated in the expulsion of the non-Mormons from Daviess County. The point of no return occured when a Mormon vigilante band crossed out of Caldwell County and attacked a state militia unit that had been legally called out and was (at the time) operating in Ray-controlled territory.

At that point, the reality that the Mormons could not take on the entire state of Missouri became clear. Like Doniphan says --- up until that point their enemies had been a smaller group, many of whom were the state's worst element. After that point, the larger, saner, law-abiding part of the population were forced to get involved and act against the Mormons to restore the rule of law.

However, in the end, the law-abiding portion of the Missourian population failed to restore the rule of law because the conditions imposed on the Mormons: expulsion and loss of property were illegal. And the real black mark against Missouri is that none of the non-Mormon vigilantes were investigated and brought to trial! In the end, many of the Mormon leaders were quite guilty of many of the crimes they were tried for --- but the reality is that the trials became a sham when leaders of non-Mormon vigilante groups who were similarly guilty were not also tried. --John Hamer 19:13, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From reading your writing and from examining the facts as far as I can see them, I think I am forced to come to the same conclusion: The Mormons were not the humble peace-keeping type they should've been. The Danites were a symptom of a deeper problem, just like the land speculation in Kirtland was. From a spiritual perspective, the Kirtland experience purged the church of the elements of pride of riches; the Missouri experience purged the church of pride in force. The Lord certainly had the power to come to their defense in both cases; but the people at large hadn't been trusting in the Lord. Their trust was in their land value or their numerical superiority. And so they were chastised twice. Under this double chastisement, the church was finally able to find peace for a time in Nauvoo, until they were driven to finally settle in the wilderness.

I look back at this period now not with an awe wishing I were there, but with gratitude that someone else was there instead of me. Sure, it would've been nice to sit and listen to Joseph's sermons, but how would I have handled the same challenges every saint there was subjected to? And how can I now look at the apostates of that period with disdain, when I don't think I would've fared any better?

I was dropping by to thank you for all the hard work you put into the articles. Your work is so good and so positive that I don't feel like any "contribution" I can make will ever compare. Keep it up! Jgardner 6 July 2005 08:30 (UTC)

Wow. Your research on the Mormon War is comprehensive! How soon until you submit it for featured article status? --KHill-LTown 05:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright

Thank you for uploading Image:OldVoree.jpg and for stating the source. However, its copyright status is unclear, so it may have to be deleted. If it is open content or public domain, please give proof of this on the image page. If the image is fair use, please provide a rationale. Thank you. --Ardonik.talk()^* 16:59, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Ardonik --- I took the photo myself and I'm releasing it to the Public Domain. I tagged it released to PD. --John Hamer 13:22, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph Smith, Jr. and his death

There has been much talk (and energy expended) in your long absence about the death of Joseph Smith. Please see the talk page. Recently, it was suggested that a seperate article be created to examine the event. I put your name forward as a resource. Look forward to seeing you around again. WBardwin 18:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Plat of Zion

John, as you uploaded Image:Zionplat2.jpg, I figured you might be interested in the plat of Zion article I've started. Also, do you know if there is somewhere we can get a larger photo of the original plan? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] KTVX

You have received this message because you have edited a Salt Lake City media article in the past. We have recently had an edit war regarding the wording and inclusion of a paragraph on the KTVX article. In hopes of resolving this I have put together an informal survey. If you are interested, please stop by Talk:KTVX and add a vote. Thanks, A 09:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject LDS

Hello! I noticed you were on the list of members in the LDS WikiProject, and I was wondering if you were still interested in helping out there. You see, over the past few months, it appears that it has slowly drifted into inactivity. But you CAN help. Please consider doing both of the following:

Take ONE thing form the To-Do list and do it. Once you're done with it, remove it from the list, and from the<>{{Template:LDSprojectbox}}<>, so we know its done. Keep the page on your watchlist. We have a backlog going for more than half a year. Please help to work on it, and remove it.
Vote on the LDSCOTF, and work on it!
Tell your friends (esp. LDS friends, & esp. Wikipedian friends) about this WikiProject, and enocourage them to join (and be active).

Remember: your involvement in this WikiProject is just that - involvement! Please help us out.

(Note: I'm sending this out to everyone who's name was on the membership list, so I will NOT be watching this page for a response. If you want to contact me, do it on MY talk page, please.)

Thanks for all that you do -Trevdna 15:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Words of Encouragement needed

User:Nerd42, a member of the RLDS restorationist movement, has recently joined the LDS movement project and done some good work. But he seems to feel like he is drowning in Brighamites and our natural focus on the Utah church. It might help if you could give him some encouragement and perhaps point him toward an LDS movement area where he might make a real contribution. Hope to see you around soon. Best wishes. WBardwin 00:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voree, Wisconsin

The Voree, Wisconsin article was excellent.As part of the WisconsinWiki Project, I added it to the Category:Churches in Wisconsin and I added a sentence in the Burlington, Wisconsin article about Voree.Thank you-RFD 16:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, RFD, I'm glad you like it. Since I was in Voree last, I've come to know the leader of the Strangite church there and next time I visit, I think we'll gather information and pictures to make that article even better. --John Hamer 13:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Smith Family

Greetings. I found your image, SmithFamily.gif, very useful. I was hoping to create similar pedigrees for several article I have been involved with. What software did you use to create it? Regards, Dr U 02:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Dr. U — I created that diagram using Adobe Illustrator. --John Hamer 13:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:BCR small.jpg

Hello, I noticed you uploaded Image:BCR small.jpg. The image is very good and used in an article, but I am unclear as to the licensing situation. From your comment I gathered you are retaining full copyright and are only giving permission for the image to be used on wikipedia and in no other location? If that is correct then is is tagged appropriately now although it is in danger of being deleted from wikipedia because images on wikipedia have to be compatible with the GFDL and those requirements are not compatible.

Anyway, If that is correct, I just wanted you to know it might get deleted, if you are comfortable licensing it under GFDL or some compatible license please change it or leave me a message telling me what you would like, I'd be glad to help. - cohesion★talk 22:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I wrote you a message on your talk page: I'm a mapmaker and an illustrator, in addition to being a historian. I love Wikipedia and I want to illustrate several of the articles I write, but I can never figure out this crazy tag system that Wikipedia has in terms of the GFDL. I make these diagrams and photographs myself and therefore they are copyrighted to me. I also want them to be able to be used on Wikipedia. But I don't want to just release the copyright into the public domain and make them clip art. Is there a tag that I can use to accomplish that? Thanks for your help! --John Hamer 00:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Cool, I was hoping you would notice the message. That was by far the best image I saw tagging lately (out of hundreds! haha) Anyway, the tags I think most people would want to use for things they create themselves are {{cc-by-sa-2.5}} or {{gfdl-self}}. You can read about the GFDL and By-Sa-2.5 and what they actually say. Also the wikipedia article on GFDL is good. I won't sugar coat this for you though, either or these licenses will permit people to copy your images in locations other than wikipedia, and even use them in pursuits and products that they may profit from. In fact it's almost a certainty that About.com will reproduce the articles, and sometimes images for their site. What they are required to do however is say where they got the images, and license the work under a similar license. For example, microsoft could not take your image and use it in encarta unless they licensed encarta under the GFDL (which they will never do) as well as crediting the creator of the image (also they won't do). Anyway, I hope you have enough to read, haha. I hope you decide to use a free license, but I can understand people not wanting to for a variety of reasons. If you have any more questions feel free to talk-page me :D - cohesion★talk 01:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Cohesion --- I'll release the images I upload under the CC2.5 rules and tag. :) --John Hamer 03:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Yay! I'm glad I didn't scare you away, haha. I am randomly looking at your articles because I was on your userpage, I never knew about Strangites, interesting! :D - cohesion★talk 08:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attention: LDS Categories up for deletion or movement

John, the following categories have been targeted for deletion or movement by User:Bhoeble. If you are around, please express your opinions ASAP. Thank you. WBardwin 08:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

5.2.22 Category:Latter Day Saint history to Category:History of Mormonism
5.2.23 Category:Latter Day Saint History Books to Category:History books about Mormonism
5.2.24 Category:Latter Day Saint Historians to Category:Historians of Mormonism

[edit] Mappa Mundi diagram

Hi John,

I just raised a question about Macrobian Zonal Maps on Talk:Mappa mundi. Since it touches on your excellent diagram, you might want to chime in. --SteveMcCluskey 19:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:SmithFamily.gif

Hello! Just dropping by to let you know of an error on the Joseph Smith Family Chart you created. You misspelled Lois Smith's name as Louis. I did a bit of double-take when I saw that Louis had married a man named Edward. I did a little research, and her name is Lois, not Louis. FYI.

[edit] William Smith (Mormonism)

Hi, John. We've missed your insights and contributions lately. I hope whatever has drawn you away has been rewarding and successful. In plugging away at the biographies of the original Quorum of Twelve Apostles, I have very little information to hand on Joseph's brother, William. He is not very well covered in Brighamite materials. I would expect better sources in your personal library and materials. Would you care to expand the article when next you drop in? Information about his work with the original RLDS would be very relevant. Thanks. WBardwin 22:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Endowment (Mormonism)

I understand you are not LDS. In the spirit of my user name, I am concerned about the impression that innuendo and missing information give regarding the LDS temple. I have proposed some additional content on the referenced page, and I would appreciate (should you feel what I have done has any merit) your support. Agape bright 00:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/o/h/User_talk%7EJohn_Hamer_2c21.html"