Talk:Johnny Lee Clary

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This article was nominated for deletion on August 30, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 Deleted material 2 Ku Klux Klan 3 Resources 4 Critiques 5 Resurrection from the dead 6 Proper references and sources 7 Consolidation edits 8 Reverting removed material 9 His website? 10 Nirvana

[edit] Deleted material

The White Knights are responsible for bombings, murders, and countless other crimes against human beings in the name of hate. Today The White Knights are considered by many as the real Ku Klux Klan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ku Klux Klan

Thanks for the help. I am in the procees of putting a draft together for inclusion on the KKK article, see KKK talk. Potters house 16:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resources

I'm having a problem with your resources. One is just a link to a church, that's not really a resource for THIS page. It could however be an external link. A resource is "a book, film, television show, etc. which serves to VERIFY the contents of the page". So unless the church itself has a page dedicated to "Johnny Lee Clary" this isn't a resource.

On the same vein, there are many statements in this bio that don't cite any source for what would be considered fairly outrageous statements. For example, "Leader of the White Knights...." if true should be able to be cited from at least a newspaper article or something of that sort. Wjhonson 01:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critiques

I noticed you requested feedback, so here we go...I didn't want to actually edit it since it's a draft that I figured you were saving.

You should probably spell out Ku Klux Klan the first time it's mentioned in the article (even if it may seem like common knowledge, it isn't readily apparent what your abbreviation is referring to. You also might want to wikify that, since it's a very relevant article.

You also might want to take a look at the Manual of Style since the formatting is a little bit weird. You should usually have the defining paragraph before the table of contents and without a double header. You will also want to boldify the title subject in the first sentence.

In fact the whole thing could be wikified a bit more, but I suppose that can come later.

Are you asking also about copy-editing? In "Upbringing", "He'd" should be changed, as that makes no sense. And actually there are a good number of minor grammar errors which should be cleaned up.

You may want to think about breaking it up into paragraphs that are a little bit easier to digest, too.

I'm sorry for criticizing so much....I'm only doing it in the spirit of creating a good article! It's not a bad article at all, but could use some improvement. Let me know if I can help you further with it. —Keakealani •talk•contribs• 08:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resurrection from the dead

I'm glad to see this article restored to the main namespace, and I hope the improvements we've all made to it will justify its continued life at Wikipedia.

Clary resurrected himself from a lifetime of hate and misery, and this should be documented in the world's free encyclopedia as an example of love overcoming hate. --Uncle Ed 17:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proper references and sources

I have NO problem with this article existing. I will let others decide notability, ect. I DO have a BIG problem with UNSOURCED material and original research. I going to HACK away at UNSOURCED/original material/commentary/ect. If the material can be SOURCED by RELIABLE (no blogs, not ones own web site, ect.) sources, fine. Add it back and provide REFERENCES. Thanks!!

Best way to do this is to insert {{cite needed}} or {{fact}} after each unsourced statement. This alerts others better than deleting material outright. Of course, if nobody bothers to look up ref's then (after a due period) go ahead and delete. I trust you to be reasonable about the waiting period. --Uncle Ed 18:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

ok, will do...--Tom 18:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

WHY am I even trying?? I going to have to NUKE the whole thing. This is the problem when people write their own bios. Potterhouse, please tell me you are not Johnny?? What the F! This article is written like a cheap trash novel. NEXT time, have somebody ELSE write/source this biography. It appears to be written in the first person almost?? ugggg! --Tom 18:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, isn't Potterhouse a friend of Clary's? Or did I remember this incorrectly? --Uncle Ed 18:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand that it may seem to be unsourced but you didn't see that I did have a ref link i.e. ^[1] Clary's first impression a black man.

This same link is the one to be used for the entire "upbringing" section which you deleted. Do I have to put the link at the bottom of each paragraph or just one at the bottom of the page?

There are actually many ways to do references WP:CITE. --Tom 18:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The entire Article is has refs but may be just in wrong places, I think deleting half the article is not helping but confusing the matter, perhaps try putting (fact) there and then I can clean up instead of reverting etc.

Oh and I am not Johnny I am Nick Sayers Potters house 18:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, sorry Nick.. --Tom 18:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I had to revert it. It was almost impossible to try and ref the article when most of it was deleted. I would search for a link and go through an artcile for half an hour to only find the entire SECTION deleted. This is over the top. I understand that you may not enjoy editing this but I have worked on the article for about a month and you delete half of it in 3 minutes. I will be working on it over the next few days, I think wholesale deletion is inappropriate as the whole story must be told or else people don't get the understanding of why he is notable. Potters house 19:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I know the intro was shortened but it is too vague. It is like saying, "Elvis, singers actor, was famous." There is more to it than that and the reason for his notability is the he left the KKK became a Christian and also was a wrestler. Written in such stub forms makes it too vague. People will want to know why this guy is notable, i.e. one of the main reasons the article was deleted before. Potters house 05:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the family childhood and youth section to align more appropriately with the types of sources we have and to cut down on a lot of the unencylopedic content. Since I've made a pretty drastic change and cut out quite a bit I wanted to explain my thinking on this. I'm intending doing more to the rest of the article, so I wanted to get feedback first. The problem with a lot of the sourcing in the article is that the sources themselves are interviews - basically Clary's story in his own words (and much of the content is verbatim from those interviews). There's been no fact checking and on it. I don't think that's as important as it might be in other articles, because I think the notability (at least around the non-pro wrestling bits) are that he has a story that others find compelling. The literal truth of it isn't what makes it notable, the fact that other's want to hear it is what makes it notable. Even so, Wikipedia shouldn't be telling the story as though it had been fact checked. We need to make it clear it's Clary's story, and the article certainly shouldn't be the equivalent of a repeat of that story. An encylopedic biography should give a skeleton outline of the most pertinent aspects of the subjects life and cover the subjects impact on the world, if people want to hear the Clary story they can go to his website. --SiobhanHansa 20:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good. I was hoping others would help because it is a difficult article to write because of the autobiographical refs. Potters house 06:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's a clip of the first page of finds on Newsbank. The total of finds is 127, although quite a number of articles are duplicates under different headers (check the word count, usually similar word count = same article). But even discounting duplicates there is no question in my mind that this person has received extensive press coverage.

Results: 1 - 10 of 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 | Next

Edit Search Show First Paragraph

1. State, The (Columbia, SC) - September 5, 1993 length: 1226 words

LEARNING TO BE RACISTS OKLAHOMA MINISTER UNDERSTANDS BIGOTRY: HE ONCE LIVED IT Save this Article

2. The San Diego Union-Tribune - August 15, 1993 length: 1207 words

How racism writes on the tabula rasa - Ex-Klan leader preaches on pattern of prejudice Save this Article

3. Tulsa World - September 26, 1991 length: 833 words

Ex-foes on same side - Former Klansman spreads new message Save this Article

4. Rocky Mountain News (CO) - August 27, 1993 length: 1278 words

PROBING THE DEPTHS OF AMERICAN RACISM INVESTIGATORS PONDER HOW CHILDREN BORN WITH NO PREJUDICES LEARN TO HATE OTHERS DIFFERENT THAN THEMSELVES AND WHAT ROLE PARENTS PLAY IN THE PROCESS Save this Article

5. Tulsa World - August 15, 1993 length: 1132 words

Former White Supremacists Turn Backs on Hate Save this Article

6. Miami Herald, The (FL) - August 15, 1993 length: 1079 words

FORMER RACISTS HAVE TURNED THEIR BACKS ON HATE Save this Article

7. Townsville Bulletin (Australia) - July 20, 2002 length: 1506 words

From KLAN to KINSHIP Save this Article

8. Albert & Logan News (Brisbane, Australia) - July 20, 2001 length: 532 words

Old klansman fired up about new cross Save this Article

9. Charlotte Observer, The (NC) - September 30, 2005 length: 1028 words

KLANSMAN TOES FROM HATE TO LOVE Save this Article

10. Advertiser, The (Adelaide, Australia) - April 7, 2001 length: 558 words

Turning around a life of racism Save this Article

~ trialsanderrors 21:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Cheers I will try to use these as a source for the Article. Potters house 23:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Great work trialsanderrors! --SiobhanHansa 00:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This one should be an acceptable source as well: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20020616/ai_n12466811 Not a lot of new details, however. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consolidation edits

OK I've hacked away at the rest of the article and tried to do what I did with the Childhood, family and youth bit. Cuts things down a lot but, I think, is more appropriate for a biography that is sourced entirely from the subject's own words. I do think we should try and find independent sources for teh TV appearances. Probably a lot harder since I believe they were mainly before 1996 and so online resources won't be much good. anyone have a stack of 20 year old TV guides lying around? :-) Also, I don't like the header for the section I've created, but couldn't come up with anything better tonight. -- SiobhanHansa 00:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting removed material

I'm reverting User:MyNameIsNotBob's removals because:

• For the wrestling piece - WP:LIVING states remove unsourced or poorly sourced negative material (my emphasis). The wrestling piece isn't negative, though it does badly need sources.
• For the TV appearances we have our current sources which mention these appearances, I'll look through and add in the right ones. I believe we can (and should) do better. Although Clary mentions these appearances, we should be able to find independent sources somewhere too. Still, it's only right that someone looking through a living person bio would want to remove something with a citation needed flag.

Feel free to disagree. -- SiobhanHansa 02:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to revert your edit as even what you quote from WP:LIVING uses an or in it which would mean remove unsourced.. material. The material is unsourced which means it should be removed. Feel free to put it back with references. Until then, leave it out. MyNameIsNotBob 02:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, MyNameIsNotBob, that's a misreading. It means remove negative material which is unsourced or poorly sourced. Here's the specific quote from WP:LIVING: "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page..." Gwernol 02:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for pointing that out Gwernol. Upon looking at what I removed I am going to maintain that much of it could be seen as negative. MyNameIsNotBob 02:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Really? How could the opening paragraph be seen as negative, for example? "Johnny became a professional wrestler in 1983. He was trained (along with his brother Terry Clary) by former NWA World Junior Heavyweight Champion, Danny Hodge. Terry began his career under the name Sugar Boy, with Johnny as his manager under the name Der Kommisar after the 80’s new wave song by After the Fire. Terry is most notable for defeating Danny Hodge to win the World Jr. Heavyweight title after Johnny reached under the ropes during the match and tripped Hodge with a cane, causing him to stumble. The decision, however, was subsequently reversed by a special commissioner.". Unless there is reason to believe this is not factual (I agree it needs sources) I can't see how this could be thought of as negative. Thanks, Gwernol 02:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

after Johnny reached under the ropes during the match and tripped Hodge with a cane, causing him to stumble. Isn't negative?!?! Its a claim of a scandal. MyNameIsNotBob 03:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand the nature of NWA Pro-wrestling then :-) Nevertheless, could you just remove the negative pieces, not the whole section. Thanks -- SiobhanHansa 03:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Only if one believed that professional wrestling was an actual sport rather than a pre-arranged entertainment. The wrestlers are playing characters, I don't think anyone actually believes what the characters do in the ring reflects the person playing the character. We don't, for example say that Larry Hagman was a bad man because he played a villain on Dallas. Gwernol 03:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm willing to accept your arguments. Feel free to use your judgment in restoring the material I removed. MyNameIsNotBob 03:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As much as I wish this went without saying, I wonder if this means we should actually modify our account of Clary's time as a wrestler to note which parts are kayfabe and which parts are real. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you'd figure people wouldn't read something like that and go "that scoundrel" and mean it, but like you said...I re-wrote it to make it more clear that this was all part of a storyline, and though at the time a member of the Klan, Johnny would NEVER commit such an awful act like tripping Danny Hodge. As for references, unfortunately all the material I was able to verify was via his profile on ObsessedWithWrestling.com (which is listed in the entry's links section). Which as far as I know can't be used as a reference(?). Maybe I'm wrong on that. Deputy Marshall 05:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I got it from http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/angel.htm Potters house 06:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• As the "author" of this disputed section I'd just like to add that I really know nothing about wrestling. I merged info from an article Johnny Angel (wrestler) into this one when motivated by this Afd. The wrestler article appeared to be a copy vio, so I "put it into my own words", such as they are. I posted a message on the talk for Pro Wrestling project to request help. My method for the merge was to pretty much lift anything that looked informative or interesting about the career, while condensing. I didn't move references from the original page, though I don't recall there being much. The old article is presently a redirect. I expect that some of this material may end up getting removed (and I have no attachment to it, other than the satisfaction of saving a page from deletion.) A helpful editor Deputy Marshall from the Pro Wrestling project answered my request and added the ObsessedWithWrestling.com link. I'm not sure if it qualifies as a reference, I'll have to check it out. I'll take some time to try and help clean up the mess a bit more. Cheers Dina 23:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh hell, everyone editing this article participated in that Afd. I didn't check that before writing my redundant comment above. Dina 23:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] His website?

Has anyone actually took the time to check out his website? It's full blantant hate and lies. Go look at the section about Marilyn Manson, 99.8% of that information is MADE-UP! Isn't lying a sin? Pssh...and he calls himself a good Christian. *rolls eyes*

[edit] Nirvana

I deleted the statement that Clary's views on Cobain were unfounded:

"however Clary's statements have little evidence to be justified with"

It is widly known that Cobain Commited Suicide and sang about suicide (e.g. Nirvana's fourth album In Utero was originally titled "I hate myself and I want to die; the lyrics "umbilical noose" in Heart Shaped Box etc.)

The article has been written By Pastor Joe Schimmel, not Clary. Many statements in the article are easily found elsewhere on the web, even amoungs pro Cobain sites. If this statement is to be re-posted, the author must explain exactly where the evidence is lacking. Potters house 16:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)