Talk:John of Austria

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 21:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Based on the arguments presented below, the honourific "Don" needs to be removed from the title in order to be consistent with Wikipedia rules. Gryffindor 00:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Why is it "de Austria" and not "d'Austria"?

because it's Spanish.

This article's name seems wrong. I have never heard of "Don John of Austria" (sounds strange too). Did a google search for "Don Juan de Austria" and there are much more hits than this one. If English is to be used, it should be "John of Austria", the "Don" would have to go as honourifics are not normally used in Wikipedia articles. I would propose either "John of Austria", "Don Juan de Austria" or "Juan de Austria", but not a combination of English-Spanish... Gryffindor 15:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

In English he is commonly known as "Don John of Austria." Just from what's at hand, I see him named that way in The Timetables of History by Bernard Grun, and in Chesterton's poem, Lepanto. Tom Harrison ^Talk 16:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well let's see... there 31,900 hits for "Don John of Austria", 50,600 hits for "John of Austria", 110,000 for "Don Juan de Austria", and 282,000 for for "Juan de Austria". I also do not find any Wikipedia rule that says honourifics are used in articles, or is there an exception for Spaniards? Also Don is not english as far as I know. Gryffindor 16:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

He is, and has been for many years, known as Don John of Austria. [1], [2]. Maybe it doesn't make sense, but English often doesn't. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

er, yes. The second link you have provided leads to "John of Austria", which to me sounds like the most correct form. Again, I cannot find any Wikipedia rule that says that this mish-mash form of Spanish and English is allowed anywhere. As to "most common name", I think the search results speak for themselves. Gryffindor 18:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Neither is there any rule that forbids it. Articles should be where people expect to find them. Still, clearly we disagree. Shall we list this on requested moves and see what other people think? Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well of course I wish we could come to some agreement. I understand your viewpoint, however I am basing my opinion on a variety of reason: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) 4. states that "Titles of Knighthood such as Sir and Dame should not be included..". The article states that Don is something like "Sir" in English, an honourific form. English Wikipedia also has to use English whenever possible, "Don" is not English. Using the honourific is indeed in violation of Wikipedia rules. Also, in case of doubt, Wikipedia should use the most common form. The google search shows clearly that "John of Austria" comes more often than "Don John of Austria". And "John of Austria" would be the version most in line with Wikipedia rules. Even the Spanish Wikipedia version of this article uses "Juan de Austria", without the "Don". You have also provided the link of the Free dictionary [3] yourself, which has him listed as "John of Austria", with "Don John of Austria" redirecting to it. I think we can mention in the article itself that he is sometimes known under the Don form as well. Gryffindor 16:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thinking about it, I have no objection to moving the page to "John of Austria", with "Don John of Austria" redirecting there. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I mean if you really insist on keeping the "Don", I guess I can also agree with you to have it as "Don Juan de Austria", however I'm afraid that would as well be a problem since this is English Wikipedia. Gryffindor 19:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

No, having thought about it, I can't see any reason the title has to include 'Don.' 'John of Austria' should be fine, and then let 'Don John of Austria' redirect there. Anybody searching for either will get the correct page; Presuambly the intro will say something like, "John of Austria, aka Don John of Austria, ..." or "Don John of Austria, ..." It leaves this page no worse off, everyone finds what they search for, and the change improves consistency with other articles. Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.