Talk:John Lennon

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[edit] Citations

I have started to put "citations needed" into the article, because it needs them. You can find a lot of them on the McCartney page (and the links pages) and copy them over to here. andreasegde 19:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

My account is to new, but I can clear up several citation needed comments.

Specically - Under 1960-1970 Lennon told Rolling Stone that '...Let It Be ("That film was set up by Paul, for Paul")...' and 'Lennon told Rolling Stone, "I was a fool not to do what Paul did, which was use it to sell a record,"

Both items can be validated on the Rolling Stone - Lennon podcast available at Rolling Stones website. The whole interview is a 3-4 hour recording from 1970(?), that I highly recommend. If in 4 days this isn't changed I'll adjust this myself. The interview itself should be included in the notes, as it's readily available at Rolling Stones website.

[edit] Style

As Kingboyk rightly changed the Macca article to sub-sections, I believe Lennon's should mirror it. It would give this article the same feel, and look, and would make it easier to read. Slap me with a wet fish if disgruntled... andreasegde 19:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC) I have done some bits, but it needs more work. andreasegde 20:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have moved more stuff, but it still needs a good sweep with a large brush. andreasegde 18:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Note to editors: Delete all adjectives, such as 'great', 'brilliant', and 'iconoclastic'. The people 'upstairs' frown upon these words, and will "waggle their eyebrows at you" (copyright: LessHeard vanU :)) andreasegde 04:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It needs a section on his drugtaking (which was copious).andreasegde 17:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorting the sections out before adding anything new from books. andreasegde 17:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A lot of stuff from May Pang should go in his solo career. andreasegde 17:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I am up to The Beatles. I am putting in a lot of citations from Cynthia at the moment, because it's hard to balance three books at the same time on the edge of the desk. andreasegde 15:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Lennon

Happy New Year Andreasegde I'm not sure if you meant to or not, but you deleted the family section from theJohn Lennonartical. I have reverted it back...but justed wanted to give you a heads-up. Once again "Happy New Year" Shoessss 18:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Bugger me - He won't do that again, by crikey... Plinky Plonky Plink Plonk 21:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"ex-Beatles since the lads had waved farewell at Candlestick Park". Do me a lemon... Imagine all the users 19:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length

  • 80% of the humour section should be in 'Wikiquote'. It's 573 words at the moment.
  • Activism is 916.
  • Christianity is 507.
  • Solo career was 920. He only had five years of it... It's now 781.
  • Murder was 1,033. It's now 870.

OK, his 'Early years' is 874, but The Beatles is only 878. (I know, I know... Family life is 1,563.) Me - who else would it be?? 23:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

  • 9,186 words, after cutting. Far too much.
I concur. Also, I oppose to young people using the word "gay" referring to homosexuality. Back in my day "gay" meant to be happy and carefree. I don't mind telling you when I declared at my local that, having won £2.64 at dominos, I felt "Gay as a gander." The youngsters gave me the strangest looks, and one burly biker raped me in the stalls. Oxford English Dicitonary - revise your policy!--The Rt. Hon. Basil Massingbird-Massingbird-Baden-Massingbird MBE (deceased) 02:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Uhh, I do so love a man that concurs... Burly biker 15:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Uploading the Lennon/Chapman Photograph

Oddly, the section that speaks of his assassination ignores the photograph taken of John signing Chapman's LP as he left the Dakota earlier in the evening. I added a sentence mentioning it, but I think it would be more powerful if someone upload it and added it to the article. I would, but I don't know how. A Google Image search will turn up numerous results for the photograph in question. -Notahippie76

To be really honest, I think that a lot of people would prefer that Chapman could be erased from history. He can't be, of course, but putting a photo of him on this page would be cementing his image in people's minds, and would be thought of as distasteful. Let him rot where he is, and don't give him what he craved the most; being famous. This is only my opinion.
P.S. If someone killed a loved one of yours, would you want a photo of them on a page? andreasegde 04:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the photo in question has been on and off of this page numerous times. There may be a copyright question, or it may have disappeared because it is so disturbing - I'm not really sure - I neither added it nor removed it. Some people have suggested that Chapman's name not even be mentioned in the article, but obviously we have to think like an encyclopedia, so the name appears. The photo, to me, adds only to the utter senselessness and viciousness of the crime - two things I don't personally need added to, because I never forget either one - to see Lennon extending a kindness that he didn't have to do to the man who a few hours later would murder him in cold blood is physically sickening. But the photo certainly is a powerful reminder of just how awful the crime was, if anyone really needs that reminder. I'm not going to look for it or upload it, and I probably won't remove it either - but no promises. I researched the "combat stance" phrase a few months ago, re-reading the contemporaneous newspaper account - and as I said then, I never wanted to re-read that New York Times article and I never will read it again. It doesn't get any easier, more than 25 years later. This is just my opinion as well. Tvoz | talk 06:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Winston Churchill is NOT John Lennon's paternal grandfather. Can this be removed?

I tried unsuccessfully to corroborate that Winston Churchill was John Lennon's paternal grandparent, as is stated in this article, as I had never heard this before. Instead, I discovered that (according to the Liverpool Lennons' Family Tree: http://www.lennon.net/familytree/sub/jack_lennon.shtml ) Jack Lennon (1855-1917) of Co. Fermanagh, Northern Ireland was the Paternal Grandfather of John Lennon. Is it possible to have the text relating to the Churchill relationship removed? GRSUS 11:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... how to put this. Okay - you, um, might have saved yourself a bit of trouble if you had read that line more carefully. I think the word "and" is meant to suggest that there are two separate people being referred to. Hope that helps. :) Cgingold 17:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I will make it a bit clearer. andreasegde 13:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I bet if you asked May Pang she'd corroborate Grandpa Winnie... Tvoz | talk 21:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
May Pang corroborated John in the undergarments dept... :) andreasegde 11:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

A pity, really. The idea of Freddie Lennon as the product of a tryst between the First Lord of the Admiralty and Elizabeth Lennon has a certain appeal. Raymond Arritt 03:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

It could have changed history:
"We shall defend The Beatles - whatever Brian Epstein's percentage may be. We shall have photos of us taken on the beaches and on mountains, we shall bow to the public at all our concerts, we shall talk about vegetarianism in the fields and break telephone boxes in the streets of Liverpool, and we shall live in large houses; we shall be the toppermost of the poppermost. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our fight, and so bear ourselves that, if The Beatles last for a thousand years, men (and women) will still say, 'This was their finest album.' " Dr. Winston O'Boogie 22:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity, Part II

Christianity Today ([http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/januaryweb-only/001-22.0.html ]) reports that Lennon wrote to Oral Roberts in 1972, expressing regret for his earlier remark about Jesus. Lennon further wrote: “I want out of hell”. This began a correspondence of several letters between Lennon and Roberts. Lennon later announced to friends that he had become a born-again Christian. Yoko was appalled, and did everything she could to destroy his newfound faith. By his death in 1980, Lennon no longer considered himself a Christian.

[edit] Re: England & the United Kingdom

Attention: All editors who may wish to remove either "England" or "United Kingdom/UK" from Lennon's place of birth.

Please take note of the fact that BOTH of these designations are included for a very simple reason: in order to provide correct and complete information to readers. Neither alone is complete. End of discussion.

Therefore, be advised that any future edit that removes either designation from Lennon's place of birth will be considered Vandalism. Any editor, whether sincerely motivated or simply a Troll, who disregards this warning and persists in deleting either the birthplace data, or the "invisibile text note" pertaining to this issue, will be reported for Disruptive editing.

Cgingold 16:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"End of discussion."

Like fuck it is. Please point me toward a WP policy or even any Beatles related talkpage where a concensus was reached. As it happens I agree that both should be included, but I do not care for your arrogant attitude. LessHeard vanU 21:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC) Start of Discussion.
Sorry, that was me who voted him judge and jury. I also died and made him boss. I dunno what I was doing, I was on an e. But, sadly, unless you want to argue diminished responsibility on my part, he now has ultimate power of judge AND jury on wikipedia (and if I remeber correctly, myspace and google too). He told me if I voted for him, he would alter the Oasis article so that Be Here Now - Heathen Chemistery never happened. I feel such a fool. By the way, I think he may have ambitions to change articles so the Hitler never died and Godzilla is real, which would be bad news for all of us.Crestville (just helping LessHeard vanU stick the knife in that bit deeper)
To Mr. Cgingold: Mr. Lennon was born in Liverpool (Northern England) England, but not in Great Britain and the United Kingdom—and in that order. Anybody that disagrees with with that will have to buy me a pint, and stand in the corner with a hat on their head that reads, "I am ignorant of the basic rules concerning birth places". andreasegde 16:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
This makes my blood boil... Lennon was NOT born in Great Britain (which means Scotland, England and Wales) or the UK (which includes Northern Ireland). He was born in England. Now shut up and put some in-line citations in, or I will feed your dog something unpleasant. You can now report me for being a vandal. andreasegde 16:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have to say I disagree about the naming of the place of birth; whilst all four (six including Sutcliffe and Best) were born in the country of England they were also born in the nation of the United Kingdom. I would include both. Think of the United Arab Emirates; we refer to the cities and citizens as UAE, whereas they may think of themselves and their cities as belonging to a particular Emirate. In Wikipedia the correct distinction is nation/nationality, and divisions by country/emirate is a geographical indicator. LessHeard vanU 21:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
If a person is born in England, then so be it—otherwise the list goes on and on: Born in (hospital of your choice) Liverpool, in the county of Lancashire, northern England, the Kingdom of England, Great Britain (but not born in Scotland or Wales) the UK (but not born in Northern Ireland) the Commonwealth, the European Union, Europe, the Northern Hemisphere, Earth. Take your pick. I am a citizen of the UK, but I wasn't born in it, as that would mean I was born in four of the above at the same time.
P.S. The United Arab Emirates is a collection of states, and not countries, as is the USA, which has one capital. The UK has four.
P.P.S. I could imagine an interesting conversation with a drunken Scotsman, Welshman, or a Northern Irishman on a saturday night in their home countries. :)) Major Sniffley, BSC (Bronze Swimming Certificate) 12:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The historical country England is a good geographical indicator of which part of the United Kingdom you come from, Liverpool is better and Wooton too detailed, but you are still a British subject and international law defines you as from the United Kingdom. Since Wikipedia is an international reference we need to apply the same standard of national identity as any other nation.
As for the Emirates, they are not states they are soveriegn countries each with an Emir who have constitutionally joined together and are ruled by one of the Emirs on a rotating basis (although it does tend to make them dizzy). The constitution of each Emirate has been amended to reflect their confederated status. LessHeard vanU 13:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC) ps. re pps Wouldn't they need to shout a bit, as there is no common borders?

I think this discussion has got silly. Can't we just put Liverpool, England? Or do I just win £5? Crestville (born 5 August 1986, Maternity Ward, Leed Royal Infirmary, Leeds, West Yorkshire, Yorkshire, northern England, England, Great Britain and/or United Kingdom, Europe, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Inner Planets, The Solar System, [The Magic's in] The Milky Way, The Local Group, An ever expanding universe which it taken to be infinate, Rutland) I think I've made my point

You little rascal - I was also born in the Maternity Ward, of Leeds Royal Infirmary! If we have the same mother I claim £5. BTW, I talked to a Northern Irish guy today, and he said he would definitely never say he was born in the UK. I think it's us people born in merry old England what uses that UK term thingy, and not our celtic brethren in the colonies. Nurse Longbottom (Nurses against bedpans protesters' group) 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
What this all means is: 1. I am waiting for Freddie and Julia to go through GAR, so I'm bored. 2. I should do some bleedin' editing and stop being flippant and pedantic at the same time (which brings me out in a rash). 3. I have finally found something to disagree with LessHeard vanU about (which leaves me feeling all confused and also interested because of the intellectual stimulation it gives one). 4. There is no four. If you put a Leeds United fan inside a room by himself for one hour, he will come out with a black eye and a fractured jaw. 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
How people may choose to label themselves is not the point, it is how the international community sees a citizen. We may be considered Limeys, Brits, Poms or Running Lackey Dogs of Imperialism, but the vote in the United Nations records the Nation as the United Kingdom, as it does in the Eurovision Song Contest. To top even that intellectual cudgel of an argument, I wish to put forward the unanswerable logic of My Mam is Bigger than your Mam!. LessHeard vanU 21:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I surrender to your logic, and infinite wisdom, but.... (Oh bugger - he's off again) my passport reads (as yours does):

EUROPEAN UNION

UNITED KINGDOM OF

GREAT BRITAIN

AND NORTHERN IRELAND

(which doesn't even mention Scotland the Brave and Tom Jones' birthplace). Whatever... I'm off back to the minor articles, and to keep my head down out of the line of fire. My Grandad had a wooden leg, and my dad was left with one little toe on his right foot after an industrial accident. 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

(mumble)No, Wales is not mentioned as it is a Principality subject to English jurisdiction ... However the United Kingdom referred to above is that of Scotland and England, ie one Kingdom made from two countries, plus Northern Ireland whose constititional standing cannot easily be given.
I don't have a passport. I have to cross the River Tamar by nefarious means. LessHeard vanU 23:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
lol, good times. You weren't by any chance born on the 5th August 1986 were you? We could be twins separated at birth. If you've got the other half of the amulet bequited to me by my mother, then that would answer a lot - she left me on a doorstep in Thronton with a swtichblade, a bottle of scoth and a note saying "please look after my baby - I can't be bothered." Incedently, if you look out of the window of the maternity ward you can see a pub across the street named "Joseph's Well". I believe this to be a major factor in my Dad's choice of name for his fist born. My Grandfather Lost His Tounge in WW2. He never talked about it
Unlikely, since there would surely be some record of a birth of one male infant and one male adult in the region of 26 years... Although it may give some indication of why Mam (who was then recently bigger than any other Mam) was so reluctant to continue with childcare. Mark 20:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will continue this happy state of mind. My Grandad lost his leg in the pit, My Dad (who was always taller than me until he was horizontal in the box) lost four toes on a conveyor belt in the pit, and my brother Michael lost four toes whilst driving a petrol-driven lawnmower over his expansive lawn. Look at the Lennon's tradition below. The Lennon's lose their fathers, but we lose limbs. Bugger. My leg itches, but it's not there 22:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That's almost macabre--Crestville 13:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I forgot: My dear old Mam had most of her toes chopped off because of an arthritis problem. That goes under extremities, and not limbs, though. Do two hip replacements on her count as well? My eldest brother only has one kidney. We're losing body parts faster than you can say..... Quick nurse, the screens!. 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family tradition

Freddie's father died when he was nine. Freddie left Julia when John was five. John left Cynthia when Julian was five. John was shot when Sean was five. Maybe wait for Julian and Sean to have kids before continuing... Daddy come home... from the pub 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Variety

I've removed the "numerous" from "numerous members of...Royalty". Only the Queen Mother, Princess Margeret and Lord Snowdon attended, so there were only three members of the family, even if you count Lord Snowdon. Apepper 23:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Memorials and Tributes (Elton John + Clarity)

Maybe it's just me, but in this section it says:

Elton John mourned the loss of John Lennon in his 1982 hit "Empty Garden (Hey Hey Johnny)", from his Jump Up! album. John exclaimed, "As the New York Sunset disappeared, I found an empty garden among the flagstones there, Who lived here, He must have been a gardener that cared a lot."

Hmmmmm... Methinks it would be better to be a bit clearer on this subject; Elton John and John Lennon. For a weird moment I thought Lennon was talking from beyond the grave about Elton John's song! I suggest changing "John exclaimed" to "The lyrics" or something else.

Who agrees with me on here? Or am I just being thick - it seems to me that somebody could get the wrong impression or think it was a mistake. Liamshaw 10:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Liamshaw, you are totally right — change it. Should it be, Elton John sang?... andreasegde 16:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't help myself; I changed it, but I think it needs a citation. andreasegde 16:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - much obliged. Memo to self: BE BOLD AND DO IT YOURSELF! I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure. I've added the citation.. I think. Liamshaw 23:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
What about, be bold and do it TO yourself? andreasegde 17:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

It seems that the image at the top of the page has been removed, would there be any chance of a replacement being posted? Doobuzz 22:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced the image with . It's a bit low in resolution, but fine for the article. Image:Huskyeye.jpg Husky (talk page) 17:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

JOHN Lennon was shot 5 times not 4.

Change the Image —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterkeith99 (talk • contribs) 05:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

This user is known as a vandal. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 00:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We didn't start the fire

He's not good enough to mention in there(death).--69.113.131.124 22:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Instruments John Lennon Played

John Lennon did play piano accordion to some degree as is mentioned in other parts of the encyclopedia. Dr accordion 22:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

True. It is quoted in Julia Lennon that she taught him the piano accordion. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 20:59, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

This could easily be a GA if a little more work was done on it. It was started in 2002, BTW... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 00:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Typical. Where is the "smaller group of people" when you need them? "Workshy" is the word... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 01:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What was John Lennon's belief?

Was Lennon an atheist, an agnostic, a buddhist, a humanist or what? Is there anything known about that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.196.244.74 (talk) 02:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

"God?" John Cardinal 02:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The best answer to the question "was Lennon an atheist, an agnostic, a buddhist, a humanist or what?" is "yes". Raymond Arritt 04:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rolling Stone's 38th place

Can I suggest that the inclusion or exclusion of this fact is discussed here, rather than by reversions to the article with or without edit summaries? Once consensus is reached, reversions can refer to this discussion. This is an issue with POV ramifications and likely to be controversial, so definitely should be done by consensus. --Dweller 16:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Rolling Stone is a well respected resource and the quote had been in some time before someone felt affronted about a supposed lowly placing. It should stay, since the argument of "Well, I don't like it" is facile.LessHeard vanU 20:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The Rolling Stone listing is meaningless nonsense and shouldn't be included. Frankly I'm mystified how on earth they reached that conclusion. POV is irrelevant, Lennon was clearly more important to the world of music than 38th place. He was the leading member of the Beatles for God's sake!!! You don't have to be an obsessive fan to realise that. Please remove this ridiculous, mind-numbingly annoying citation... it makes my blood boil every time I look at this page and see it there. The BBC citation which comes before this is fine, just use that one. Wjfox2005 18:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The trouble with truth, and statistics, is that you can only have the whole and not the part that suits a particular viewpoint; The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Rolling Stone's placing should stay, since it is a well regarded publication that reflects an American view of popular culture while the BBC reflects a perhaps more broad section of British public opinion. As a personal opinion I think Lennon was a immensely talented and articulate individual and I don't need opinion polls to tell me what he means to me. He also had a few things to say about facing up to truth, even if it is painful. LessHeard vanU 20:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sam Cooke, The Ramones and Bo Diddley are more significant than John Lennon...... er, yeah right. Wjfox2005 00:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sam Cooke; perhaps. The Ramones, no. Bo Diddley, emphatically yes. No Bo = no Buddy Holly = No Beatles = No John Lennon... Significant is the word here, not popular/favourite. That said, this is just my opinion. LessHeard vanU 12:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Wjfox2005, we are recording evidence, not facts/truth. No one really knows how influential Lennon was or is. He may be #1 in your book and others, or a lower number to other people. It's notable that RS—one of the leading magazines during Lennon's career—put him at 38. Right or wrong from your POV, the RS ranking should stay. John Cardinal 05:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

"we are recording evidence, not facts/truth." Like, you're kidding about that, right? 212.241.67.98 14:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely not kidding! Rolling Stone reckons Lennon is the 38th most significant individual... Is that a fact, or the truth? Well, yes and no; I don't agree, Wjfox certainly doesn't agree and John Cardinal may or may not agree. It is, however, the position of Rolling Stone and that is a reputable published source. So we cite the evidence of the existence of that published listing. It isn't, I realise, the easiest of concepts to understand, but it is the Wiki way. Someone, somewhere, writes something notable and Wikipedia references it. What we believe does not matter. LessHeard vanU 20:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Well then, since the Beatles were #1 in that list, can't we add a small bit at the end, so it reads - "In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked Lennon number 38 on their list of "The Immortals: The Fifty Greatest Artists of All Time" and ranked the Beatles at number 1."

or...

...just leave out the "38" figure altogether so it says "In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked Lennon among their list of "The Immortals: The Fifty Greatest Artists of All Time".

Please... I'm begging you here. Either of these 2 compromises would be fine with me. Wjfox2005 11:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I am fine with mentioning the Beatles' place on the list. It probably had an effect on lennon's ind. position, tho we should let the user decide on his or her own about that. John Cardinal 12:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

For balance, this fact should be included. Even if they'd placed him 383rd, it should be included. Excluding it is POV that the journal was wrong or misguided. --Dweller 14:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Then you don't object to my first option? Wjfox2005 15:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. I think it's the very essence of balance! --Dweller 15:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'O' Level Grades edit query

Were there different grades at 'O' Level in Lennons time? I believe that in the 50's and 60's you either passed or failed, and the later C grade was at the old pass mark. I have left a question over at the GCE page, but think I might get more responses here. I also think that the edit is ill-founded in that the original edit may have been talking about the 11+ exam, which determined if you went to Grammer School or Secondary Modern/Technical College (which is what Liverpool Art College may have been). I have no idea if the 11+ was graded as I didn't do that, although I did do 'O' Levels in the mid 70's. LessHeard vanU 11:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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