Talk:John III Sobieski

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An event mentioned in this article is a May 21 selected anniversary

Contents

[edit] Opening comments

In English, we don't usually put the ruler's family name. Just to repeat myself. Again. JHK

I'm pretty sure the Poles didn't call him John; what was his original name, Jan? I think it should at least be mentioned in the article. Jeronimo

Ermm...all respect to JHK, now departed, but in English we very usually call this fellow "John Sobieski". I think that for elected, non-dynastic Kings like the Polish ones, the surnames should be included when appropriate - as in this instance. john k 20:02, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Jeronimo, mayhaps the Poles didn't translate his name Jan into John, but this is an english-language encyclopedia, and the English name should be provided, correct? -Alex, 12.220.157.93 04:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

[edit] When was Jan III Sobieski elected the new monarch of the Commonwealth ?

The infobox and the main text have different dates for the Jan III Sobieski's election as the new monarch of the Commonwealth. Was it May 19 or May 21 ? --199.71.174.100 00:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Only 22 years"

Okay, 22 years is quite a while. I'm removing some of that. Reinsert it if you will. Aaрон Кинни (t) 23:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming proposal - John III Sobieski

This article was moved to the Polish name in December 2005, along with several other articles. Many of the others have since been moved back to English names and this article should be moved back too, to the English name of "John III Sobieski", as it appears in English-language reference works [1], per the Wikipedia guideline of Use English. Please indicate below if you support or oppose this move. --Elonka 04:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Support, as nominator. --Elonka 04:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Well, if I remember well we already decided on Jan III Sobieski because the name was much more popular in English. Google Books Jan 297 [2] John 295 [3], Google hits Jan 95,800 [4] John 14,000 [5]--SylwiaS | talk 07:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
If ones excludes "hotel", these 95,800 hits are reduced to 19,000 [6] , or less when "street" or other place names are also excluded. According to Google counts, "Jan III Sobieski" would be a good name for a traveller's guide to Poland then ... -- Matthead discuß!   O    16:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the same then -hotel, -street Jan 15,600 [7] John 12,800 [8].--SylwiaS | talk 18:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Among the first results for Jan, impartial sites like "gov.pl" pop up, pages titled "Jan III Sobieski: Listy do królowej Marysieńki" (do we have to consider that english?), and coins sold on ebay. For John, sites like britannica.com oder .edu sites show up first. So better stop beating this dead horse. -- Matthead discuß!   O    06:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute, the first two sentences of the very first result for Jan deserves an honourable mention: "“He is a perfect oval which from a distance looks like a very large egg stood on the small end,” wrote one French observer, as he watched the Polish king, Jan III Sobieski. Blessed with a large head, enormous belly, and small feet, Jan Sobieski did indeed look something like an egg." -- Matthead discuß!   O    06:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you simply bring some evidence that John is more often used than Jan in English? BTW That page with Letters to Queen Marysieńka has his biography in English. I can't help it that people often look it up.--SylwiaS | talk 11:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Should be moved back to English name. If it gets left here, there will be two monarchs of Poland called John, and one call Jan (this one). Doesn't really make sense. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 09:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, as by nomination and Calgacus. -- Matthead discuß!   O    14:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - as Sylwia pointed out, Jan is already the most popular ENGLISH name for this king.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Sylwia pointed out that Google can be (mis)used as a funny and useless source for naming historic figures. -- Matthead discuß!   O    16:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per above. Charles 14:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I would actually prefer John III of Poland, but within the limits of the proposal, I vote for the requested move. Shilkanni 18:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose As soon as I saw "Jan" and "Sobieski", "Polish Monarchs" popped right into my head. "John" and "III" meant I was fumbling for my List of Popes. Per Sylwia, Jan is the common name. — MrDolomite | Talk 22:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I would, however support any combination of redirects which take all the various Jan/John/Sobieski/KingOfPoland and still get a reader where they need to go. — MrDolomite | Talk 22:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • While I prefer Jan, I wonder what do you think about John III Sobieski as compared to John III of Poland? See also John I of Poland, a monarch virtualy unknown to anybody but some people who put a very specific Wikipedia Naming Convention about rulers above such things as, oh, 99,9% of printed academic works in English language.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name as it appears in encyclopedias and dictionaries

I really hate Google tests as a justification for "common usage in English", when we're talking about an individual who already has entire articles in major English-language encyclopedias. Here's a list of what I have easily available at the moment. If you have others, please feel free to add to the list. --Elonka 16:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedias

  • John III Sobieski {Online Britannica [9])
  • John III, king of Poland (Online Columbia [10])
  • John III Sobieski (Encyclopedia of World History [11])

That's nice, but since we don't care about encyclopedic use at Jogaila, why care about it here? :( -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Trivia: Scutum Sobieski modifications

The constellation Scutum Sobieski was named after John III Sobieski. The trivia section speculated that the name Sobieski was dropped since no other person/house kept it's constellation person/house connection. That's speculation – fascinating – but not proper for an encyclopedia. For talk page's it might be OK, however, since some editor might know a doctor, that actually know an old pergament where astronomer X writes to astronomer Y, saying that "this family stuff in the stars is unacceptable, I will speak for removing the name sobieski", etc. (just speculation – don't take this for truth, please!). Now speculation alternatives:

  1. the name Scutum Sobieski was too long and awkward, and since there was no other shield in the sky, the astronomers decided Scutum was enough,
  2. all other "fawning" constellations were removed, f.ex. Sceptrum Brandenburgicum, Taurus Poniatovii, Telescopium Herschelii etc., but since Scutum was too well established, then only the the last name was dropped ...

Speculated: Rursus declamavi; 17:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

But ... Stars named after individuals are seldom older than from the 19th century, and almost exclusively called after their "discoverers". Earlier star names named after persons ... well ... the practical joke names Rotanev and Sualocin (allegedly after Niccolò_Cacciatore), and then Cor Caroli. Only Cor Caroli after a non-astronomer Charles II of England, which makes person names after non-astronomers among the stars incredibly rare! Rursus declamavi; 17:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Any defeats?

Can anyone tell me if Sobieski ever lost a military engagement? I checked all the articles that wikipedia has on his battles and they're all victories. I wasn't able to find much on the smaller battles so I can't tell what their result was. Help is much appreciated. JRWalko 20:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

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