Talk:John Henry Cardinal Newman

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Contents 1 Campus Ministry 2 Opening 3 Newman and Manning 4 Cause for his canonization 5 title? 6 Coat of Arms 7 clearer english needed? 8 Character 9 Quotation 10 Links 11 Name of the article 12 Legacy 13 Newman Societies 14 Unattributed source: 1911 EB 15 Never mind

[edit] Campus Ministry

Shouldn't there be at least cursory discusion within the article of how modern catholic centers on college campuses are universally named after him, as well as why this is? ~snowboardpunk

[edit] Opening

The content, largely from the 1911 encyclopedia, wants some editing. In particular, the opening paragraph should briefly summarize Newman's life, accomplishments, and historical importance; we can keep the stuff about his parents and siblings, but move it further. --Jim Henry 00:31, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Done.--Jim Henry 18:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Newman and Manning

Should this be a separate article, with links from both the Newman and Manning main articles? --Jim Henry 18:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cause for his canonization

"In 1991 he was proclaimed venerable, but later the canonization process was stopped for political reasons."

Can anyone cite a source for the "political reasons"? --Jim Henry 20:47, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am deleting the part about "political reasons". If you can cite sources, feel free to add it back. This seems to suggest the cause was ongoing at least as recently as 2002, and other search results suggest the same. --Jim Henry | Talk 21:40, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] title?

The debate below is about whether or not the name of this article should be changed to John Henry Cardinal Newman to comply with the following naming convention. Please help out by expressing your opinion below and helping us reach consensus.

WP Naming Convention for Catholic Cardinals

For cardinals, use "{name if known} Cardinal {surname}]]". For example, Giuseppe Cardinal Siri not Cardinal Giuseppe Siri This format avoids problems associated with historical cardinals whose first names have long since been forgotten; they can be entered as "Cardinal {surname}" and adapted later if and when their first name has been unearthed. Another theory suggests that cardinals insert "Cardinal" in the middle of their name because Pope Urban VIII (1644) felt the honor of being appointed cardinal was so great that the title should become part of the person's name itself rather than merely a prefix. The practice also has the benefit of keeping the cardinal surname together for search purposes. This is the format officially used by the Roman Catholic Church to refer to its cardinals. Since Vatican II, an alternative version, placing the word 'Cardinal' before the first name has grown in popularity. However as the great majority of cardinals predate this change, that format would require a complete change in all cardinal titles before 1965 and is impractical.

Shouldn't this be at John Henry Cardinal Newman? john k 04:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes. It most definitely should. Upon the elevation of a Catholic person to the cardinalate, "Cardinal" becomes a part of his very name; it is not merely a title.--24.176.68.73 14:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I checked the Wikipedia naming conventions. They do specify that an article on a cardinal be named 'Blah Blah Cardinal Blah'. I have therefore added the move template to this page. This will require an admin - John Henry Cardinal Newman exists and is a redirect - necessitating a page swap. I am not sure that consensus is required here; consensus has already been reached at the naming conventions.--Mm35173 15:10, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment: Consensus is required that the naming conventions apply, and this is not a special case. Septentrionalis 19:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Oppose: This is a special case. Newman, made a cardinal at age 78, was in his home country, England, most commonly known as Cardinal Newman or Cardinal John Henry Newman. (See numerous references in The Times from 1879 to present) - Op. Deo 20:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Support. "cardinal john henry newman" gets 7,850 Ghits. "john henry cardinal newman" gets 17,600 Ghits. This shows that Newman is not an exception to the usual naming convention for Cardinals. --Jim Henry | Talk 21:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Support. This may be speculative, but I suspect most Americans who now become acquainted with his legacy do so through Catholic campus ministry programs at colleges and universities, where he is invariably styled a Cardinal. With regard to the first vote of opposition above, I do not think that how he was referred to in his time is as important as how he is commonly referred to now. His importance transcends his time and country of birth, escpecially as he now has such a devotion among college clergy, lay ministers and students, and since his cause for sainthood is currently proceeding. Present-day English-speaking Catholics know him as (John Henry) Cardinal Newman, and I bet the majority of English-speakers who would be concerned are Catholic. And, unlike a typical title, such as King, the style Cardinal actually becomes a part of a Cardinal's name after his elevation in consistory. --Mm35173 18:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I apologise for returning to this issue, but I feel I should add detailed justification for my opposition recorded above. I have always heard Cardinal John Henry Newman referred to in England either in that way or else as shortened to Cardinal Newman. Once this proposed title change was proposed I did some research and found that we in England are out out of step with many other countries and with the official policy of the Catholic Church, although this itself has been relaxed in recent times. I confirmed the balance of usage in England originally by checking refences in The Times newspaper between his death in 1879 and 1985. John Henry Cardinal Newman is very rare. Now Mm35173 suggests above that older data has reduced significance in determining current usage. However it seems that old habits die hard, for I have now searched 8 heavy weight English newspapers from 1986 to 2005 This gives 32 articles using Cardinal John Henry Newman against 1 using John Henry Cardinal Newman. 385 articles use the short form Cardinal Newman. As a result of this I still argue that how he is called in his home country newspapers is the appropriate choice,especially in view of the top level Wiki Manual of Style statement "Historical names and titlesConvention- In general, use the most common form of the name used in English". I am assuming in this case it means consistent with use in his home country of England. However, in a spirit of compromise I would suggest that we move to plain Cardinal Newman since a) It is not ambiguous, and b) It is much more frequently used in England, c) It is not inconsistent with the Wiki policy for titling Catholic cardinals. Op. Deo 19:59, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

American newspapers sometimes get the titles/names of American cardinals wrong, too; that doesn't mean Wikipedia should imitate their errors. For instance, Google News search gets 78 hits for "cardinal bernard law" and only 4 for "bernard cardinal law"; that doesn't mean Wikipedia should rename its article about him. --Jim Henry | Talk 20:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

So the American newspapers also get it as "wrong" as the newspapers in England! I know that newspapers can be infuriating when they propagate wrong information, but I think in matters like this, professional journalists do try and check both protocol and common practice. In this case it seems to show that the public have have not accepted to follow the historical Vatican conventions. I have done a bit more reading on the catholic information sites the Vatican and EWTN. I conclude that the historical titling tradition is widely broken even in the catholic church where it is regarded as the more formal form but that the modern form is permitted by the Pope.

I shall quote this from EWTN [1]

It is perhaps worth mentioning in connection with yur informative reply that the Pope himself has no problem with addressing official correspondence to his cardinals in the form e.g. "Cardinal Edward Egan" as opposed to "Edward Cardinal Egan". Anyone who goes to the Vatican website (www.vatican.va) and enters the word "cardinal" in the search facility can easily verify this.

Nor can it be said to be a recent practice, as I have seen official letters addressed in Italian by Pius XII to his Secretary of State in the form "Cardinal Luigi Maglione" rather than "Luigi Cardinal Maglione", although in Latin correspondence the latter form of address is used.

Newspapers or commentators who refer to "Cardinal Edward Egan" etc. can therefore justify the usage by an appeal to papal precedent - assuming their reports aren't filed in Latin ,that is!

Answer by Matthew Bunson on 08-03-2003:

Thank you for your additional information. As noted in the first reply, there is a tendency not to use the traditional form, although I have seen it quite often in Latin documents, along with the other traditional salutations.

It seems to me that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) needs changing in respect of cardinals. After all I think the intention in WP is to reflect current practice by educated people rather than ancient conventions and Latin documents of the Vatican! If this fails to convince, then in the sprit of compromise I would also accept John Henry, Cardinal Newman which is in my view correct in English. - Op. Deo 11:15, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I think all of you have very good points. I think the way most people refer to cardinals in plain conversation is "Cardinal Soandso". One would speak of "Cardinal Ratzinger" (in a historical context), "Cardinal McCarrick", "Cardinal Soldano", etc., if not using their full name, in speech. I think part of the reason that the WP naming convention was set to "First Middle Cardinal Last" was to make it easier to search for cardinals for people who don't know their first names. For example, I could Google for "Cardinal George" site:en.wikipedia.org without knowing his first name was Francis. If you just search for Cardinal George, Google, being word order agnostic, will return results for George Cardinal Mundelein, George Cardinal Pell, etc. Many people outside of the Chicago archdiocese and province would simply know him as "Cardinal George". If I mentioned John Newman to you out of context, you could not know who I was speaking of; but if I mentioned Cardinal Newman, you would instantly know who I was speaking of. I think this is important. It is, however, necessary to include the first names of the cardinals to prevent ambiguity, especially since most of the cardinals on record (c. 1400 AD - present) were Italian, and many Italian surnames were repeated.

Regardless, whatever we choose to do, it should be the same for all of the cardinals. I contend that this really isn't a special case, and that many English news sources would style any cardinal like Cardinal Bernard Law, even though this is not really correct. If we are going to change the WP naming conventions, fine, but let's change this article for the time being and move this discussion to the relevant talk page. --Mm35173 14:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Oppose above withdrawn! There is much more to this than I was aware of when I dipped my toe in the water because I felt I knew that in England the form Cardinal John Henry Newman was best known. I now agree with Mm35173 that the ramifications go so far that this discussion should be one of name and title policy for cardinals and this discussion should be transferred to that talk page. It is now clear to me that there are many more cases where the current naming policy is unsatisfactory. I will mention here just further two points.

1) I dont buy the search engine argument. This is a familiar problem and each search engine has quirks which need different stategies. The Google search proposed by Mm35175 always finds the WP page since our article rightly carries all forms of the name within the text.

2) I had a look at what the Italian Wikipedia did for Italian cardinals. Of the 27 listed none of them followed the English WP naming convention! Here is an example, it:Dionigi_Tettamanzi (nato il 14 marzo 1934 a Renate, MI) è cardinale e arcivescovo cattolico di Milano. Now of course I realise that quite possibly the Italian editors have not got around to considering this policy yet, but I cant help chuckling over how reluctant many people are to use the formal Vatican convention about this.

So reluctantly, I cave in. Make the move, but it will jar every time I read the new title when I go the JHN's page to edit it. Op. Deo 19:48, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Support to follow naming conventions. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 20:45, 25 August 2005 (UTC)}

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Dragons flight 00:01, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of Arms

I found the image of what I presume to be Cardinal Newman's arms on Google image search. It had no context - the web page on which Google found it no longer existed. I am almost absolutely sure that the arms are his - the filename was NEWMAN2.GIF, the motto is his motto, and several sources on the web make mention of the use of hearts in his arms. If the image is his coat of arms, this is likely fair use. However, the image quality is poor. Does anyone here draw well? It would be nice to have a good, high resolution or vector image of his arms. It would be even more nice to have a concrete confirmation of the accuracy of this portrayal. I guess I'll askthe guy who drew Benedict's arms for the pope's page to do this. --Mm35173 16:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] clearer english needed?

There is a huge amount of material here but my head span slightly from the sentences, some of which seem quite strange to me. No offenced intended, apologies. Perhaps it is from copying and pasting from elsewhere? Does anyone think it could be a lot easier to read?

Paulc1001 23:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Character

I have deleted two insinuations that Newman was homosexual. The first was in a link to an external site after the note of where he is buried, which turned out to be a short piece by Peter Tatchell. Tatchell is a leader of the homosexual rights movement in the UK. He is not an authority on Newman. The second was at the end of the section on character and is of the kind of "there is speculation that..." This claim was not sourced at all. Therefore I deleted them both.

There is absolutely no evidence that Newman ever had sexual relations with anyone - man or woman - and we have his own claim (in the Apologia) that he always knew he was meant to be celibate and that he always was celibate. Newman had plenty of enemies in the Catholic Church and amongst the Anglicans. When the Birmingham Oratory was being built (see [2]) the story was put about - and seriously believed - that Newman and the Oratorians had cells in the basement of their house the better to murder their helpless victims. Can we believe that any suggestion of sodomy would have escaped notice? Perhaps he was gay but celibate? Prove that the allegedly effeminate expressions of affection for his friends meant to Newman or his contemporaries what we would suppose them to mean if somebody of our own time wrote them.

This article has already reached the recommended maximum limit. There is no need to expand it further with unsourced allegations of homosexuality.

Stroika 22:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quotation

The quotation strikes me as rather offensive. It adds practically nothing beyond being a brief exposition of Newman's belief about Church history. Can we delete it? Stroika 22:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

No reply. Deleted it. Good riddance. Stroika 14:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Anonymous user 24.74.140.20 systematically removed a number of links from this article, including a useful reference to an external site with the text of the Apologia. There might be an excessive number of links. I can't say for sure - certainly 24.74.140.20 removed the only reference to Pope which is a necessary link in an article on Newman. I would be gald to hear more on why all these lins should be removed.--Stroika 18:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the article

I'm aware that the Roman Catholic Church has some medieval protocol that dictates that 'Cardinal' is part of somone's name. However, Wikipedia isn't bound by that, but by our naming policy (WP:NAME), which states the general principle that:

article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

And

Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.

So, what is the subject of this article generally called?

Google

'John Henry Cardinal Newman' = 76,400 [3]

'Cardinal Newman' = 402,000 [4]

'John Henry Newman' = 428,000 [5]

Other publications

Encyclopedia Britanica = 'John Henry Newman' [6]

Encarta = 'John Henry Newman' [7]

Catholic Encyclopedia = 'John Henry Newman' [8] (sic!)

Now, I'm aware that some folk have drawn up a 'Naming convention on the Western Clergy' and used it to enforce this obscure Vatican tradition on a host of articles - but that convention contravenes our policy and common sense, so I'm moving this article to 'John Henry Newman'. If anyone can refute my logic (which I doubt) I'm willing to discuss it. --Doc 07:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I certainly am not opposed to a fresh debate about the subject of the article, and appreciate the boldness with which you moved the page. That being said, I am opposed to the move for the following reasons:

• Consensus had previously been reached (see above) after a healthy debate.
• The aforementioned convention is more often than not adhered to in Wikipedia for Cardinals from English-speaking regions, which would seem to indicate consensus. The American cardinals and the Australian cardinals are almost all titled by the convention. The English and Canadian cardinals are about half titled by the convention.
• Appellations of the subject of this article more commonly than not contain 'Cardinal Newman'.
• The title of the article is clearly not ambiguous as 'John Henry Cardinal Newman'. I assure you that there are thousands of people in the English-speaking world who are named 'John Henry Newman'. There is only one 'John Henry Cardinal Newman'. Googling for 'John Henry Newman -Cardinal" reveals that approximately 48,800 hits for John Henry Newman are likely not related to the subject of this article.
• The "Vatican tradition" you speak of is not largely obscure and does not contravene common sense. I will go into an in-depth discussion of the theological motives behind name changes associated with liturgical Christian rituals if you desire; however, I believe it sufficient to say that the majority of English-speaking persons at this point in history are liturgical Christians and would know him as a Cardinal (in fact, many Catholics likely do not know his first names but are aware of him under the appelation Cardinal Newman). The tradition of changing names predates even New Testament times. In the Pentateuch, Abram's name was changed to Abraham with the reception of a vocation. In the New Testament, Saul's name was changed to Paul with the reception of a vocation. It is hardly a "Vatican tradition".

--Mm35173 05:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I support Doc 100% in this. When I looked at his name in WP some time ago what really grated on me was that I knew him as Cardinal John Henry Newman and no contemporary reference which I was able to find for him in newspapers and official records referred to him as as John Henry Cardinal Newman (I can give many references if desired.) So clearly his new title style is something that has been imposed by later generations, but this new style has not yet eradicted the old one as is indicated by Doc's data. I think the particular argument that Cardinal Newman will be searched for more often than Cardinal John Henry Newman because most people have never heard of his first name, should be discounted since WP already has a redirect page to catch that. What ever the style used for non-english cardinals, I think we should make an exception here and style JHN as he is generally thought of in England. Perhaps it a bit like English/American spelling conventions in WP where a bias towards the place of origin of the subject is allowed. Op. Deo 06:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the mistake here is trying to standardise a host of biographies of people of different times and cultures. There is simply no need for them all to be identically named. We have a category 'cardinals' if you want to list them all. Further, that the individual was a cardinal may not be the most significant thing said about them. Newman is as notable for being an Anglican Tractarian, a English Theologian and writer etc, there is no way that his existence as a cardinal should be prioritised in the naming of the article. The problem is that a (probably small group) of Wikipedians who are interested in 'Cardinals' int he abstract, seem to have agreed a convention based on that interest. However, there are many others who will be interested in particular cardinals for reasons other than that one aspect. That's why we have a 'most common name for a non-specialist reader' priority in our naming pollicy. --Doc 08:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

I think that we most certainly need a section on Newman's Legacy, that is, that almost every single college Catholic organization bears his name. There is a somewhat complete list located here : http://www.catholiclinks.org/newmanunitedstates.htm. Please note that this is not just in America, but around the world. Mets 05:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newman Societies

Why the repeated deletion of the link to one of the Newman Societies? Without explanation this simply looks like vandalism. If nobody provides one, that's how I'll treat and report it. Countersubject 08:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The society that is constantly deleted is a schismatic body sailing under false colours and pretending to be the original Oxford Newman Society. Its pretensions ought not to be encouraged.Westminsterboy 11:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That might or might not be true; as things stand, it's not verifiable. Please will you provide more detail. Countersubject 11:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The Society that is constantly deleted is not a schismatic body. It should be noted that there are issues which are sub judice. NewmanPresident 17:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Please give details of the judicial body and procedure. If there's a legal battle between two societies claiming to be the OUNS, then that's worthy of record, subject to the rules of court. If there isn't, then you need to be careful not to give the impression of tiresomeness. Countersubject 20:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually there are two bodies which claim to be The Newman Society, which sometimes (although not always) is Oxford University Newman Society. The rules for Student Societies using the University's name can be found here: [9], at present one of the two societies is registered with the Proctors, and so is Oxford University Newman Society. The other does not claim to be. However it does say that it is 'The Newman Society'. I hope that the difference can be appreciated. Whether the current OUNS is the same society as existed prior to June 2004 is questionable.NewmanPresident 14:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, it dosn't shed much light for those of us unfamiliar with the issue. You don't answer the question about you statement that "there are issues which are sub judice". It would be helpful if you would do so. Also, you say that "there are two bodies which claim to be The Newman Society ... at present one of the two societies is registered with the Proctors, and so is Oxford University Newman Society". Are you saying that there are three Newman Societies at Oxford? If so, please will you provide details and confirm the relationship of each of these societies to NewmanPresident, Westminsterboy and the societies for which they appear to speak on this page. Countersubject 11:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

There are, as far as I am aware, only two 'Newman Societies' in Oxford. One is registered with the Proctors, the other is not: but is none the less a Student Catholic Society - it just doesn't use the 'Oxford University' name. I am an officer of that Society. I cannot say what Westminsterboy's relationship is as I do not know. I am sorry that the issue has not too much light shed upon it, but as I hav said previously, the matter is sub judice: therefore not much more can be said.NewmanPresident 17:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In what way is it sub judice? Countersubject 19:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Both societies claim to be the original Newman society. The one that is registered with the proctors is the one recognised by the University and by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in England and Wales. The other is an independent "Tridentinist" organisation.--Westminsterboy 15:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In what manner is one society 'recognised ... by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in England and Wales'?NewmanPresident 15:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The 'other' is not a Tridentinist Society. There are members in both societies who value the Classical Roman Rite. I would say that bringing the question of which of the two versions of the Roman Rite members like is aside to the main question.NewmanPresident 18:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

(a) In what sense is the dispute sub judice? (b) Are there members of the 'other' society who value the new rite? Countersubject 19:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

(a) The dispute is sub judice by having been appealed to a statutory body within the jurisdiction of England and Wales. I have been advised by legal counsel not to disclose anything further on this point.NewmanPresident 15:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing in English law that prevents you from giving the identity of court and case, and the nature of the dispute that takes you there. Your reluctance to give these details is strange. Countersubject 19:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

(b) There are members of the so-called other Society who value the new rite.NewmanPresident 15:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

(c) There are members of the so-called Oxford University Newman Society who also value the old rite.NewmanPresident 15:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford University Newman Society is 'recognised by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in England and Wales' since it continues to be afforded access to the facilities of the Oxford University Catholic Chaplaincy, a body wholly within the control of the hierarchy.--Westminsterboy 16:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add that in my own term as President of the Oxford University Newman Society that same society was recognised by Their Majesties the King and Queen of Spain who wrote to commend the work of the same society. I am currently aware of at least four Newman societies in Oxford, three of which claim to be the 'real' Newman society. The largest 'other' Newman society has already been discussed here. The two remaining societies are; 'Another Newman Society' which is a formal dining club established last year and another club which calls itself 'The Newman Society' exists for those former members now living outside of Oxford. Matthewafallen

I have a problem. Part of me wants to say that you chaps should stop using this article as a tilting ground for your inter-society dispute, which fascinates me but is entirely irrelevant to the issue of what should or shouldn't be listed under External Links. The 'other' society quacks and waddles like a Newman Society, so it's entirely proper for it to have a link. However, that link is to a page that appears to be misleading - it claims the society is the historic OUNS, yet doesn't explain why that is so, when on the face of it the title belongs to the body recognised as such by the University and Hierarchy. Requests for verifiable justification have been fruitless. I therefore reluctantly agree with the removal of the link. Of course, if NewmanPresident would like to come out from behind apparently spurious claims of sub judice to provide verifiable explanation and justification ... Countersubject 23:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to propose a way forward, which essentially involves moving this problem elsewhere . A dispute appears to have arisen about the proceedings, membership and identity of the Oxford University Newman Society, and its relationship to the Catholic Chaplaincy. I suggest we put something about the dispute on the Oxford University Newman Society page, and then refer to it in this article in explanation of links to two Oxford-based Newman societies. That way, further discussion of the dispute is moved to an article where it more properly belongs. This is, after all, an article about JHN. As a practicality, I'd suggest that the section on the dispute be kept as short and neutral as possible - it should merely identify the dispute, and summarise its main points. Ideally, it won't be written by anyone involved. Countersubject 17:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Respectfully, I don't think that's a terribly good idea! It'd be better just to let the link to the "alternative" Newman Society remain on the JHN page; have it clear on the JHN page that the OU Newman Society is recognised by the University; and, finally, leave the entry for Oxford University Newman Society for precisely that - the University society. NewmanSociety 02:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope that means that, as far as this article goes, the issue is dead. I think you'd have a problem justifying exclusion of a reference to the dispute in the other article, because it's a matter of fact relating to its subject, but that's not my problem ... Countersubject 11:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)±

If the link to the unofficial student Newman Society is to be preserved, then there should be some indication of its status. Any further discussion can then be taken elsewhere. That seems to me to be the acceptable compromise.Westminsterboy 12:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the official status is precisely the subject of the dispute. It's therefore inappropriate to use a term that implies a view on the matter, because it falls foul of the NPOV policy. Also, it invites further edit wars, and endless rounds of increasingly acrimonious and irrelevant discussion on a page that's supposed to be about Newman. I should explain (in case it's not apparent) that I have no interest in either society. I strongly encourage those of you who do to take your actions and discussions to another, more appropriate article. Countersubject 15:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree your edit is suitably NPOV and am content to leave it there.Westminsterboy 15:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Countersubject 15:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No problem.Westminsterboy 15:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unattributed source: 1911 EB

Please note that large sections of the early biographic material in this Wikipedia article on John Henry Newman were lifted word for word from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. Please see-- http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/John_Henry_Newman

In this case, the controversy may have been settled over whether Wikipedia or EB are the more accurate, since they are substantially one and the same in this instance. I suggest that either the 1911 EB should be cited as a block quote, or substantial portions of this article should be rewritten. Ajschorschiii 05:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Never mind

Never mind, I just saw the attribution of 1911 EB on the bottom of this article, which I had not seen during an earlier view a few months ago. Perhaps, however, the word for word borrowings from EB could be more clearly noted.Ajschorschiii 05:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)