Talk:John Edwards

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[edit] Stephen Colbert and IntegrityJustice.com

This page is going to be, and is already (check the history), a target for vandalism because of Stephen Colbert and The Colbert Report. He has a continuing joke about Senator Edwards having a sexual encounter with a terrorist. He raised this joke by mentioning a website where people could post fake news stories, and that website was "IntegrityJustice.com". This website isn't real yet. However, editors here might want to consider protecting this article due to the vandalism from the fans of Colbert. dposse 04:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope no Edwards fans vandalize the site with the false information mentioned by Colbert in an attempt to cast Edwards as the "new John F. Kennedy" (since JFK slept with a Nazi spy during WWII but Joe Sr. got him sent to the Pacific Theater instead of court-martialed).  : ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AuH2ORepublican (talk • contribs) 15:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyone have a spare grain of salt? /Blaxthos 22:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm the first to admit that you should take that JFK story with several grains of salt, since it's one of those urban legends about JFK that may never be confirmed or disproven (which is why I added the : ) on my obviously tongue-in-cheek comment). I Googled JFK and "Nazi spy" and this is the first hit I got, which is not exactly Encyclopaedia Brittannica but succintly retells the legend: http://www.sharkhunters.com/tapeh40.htm Sorry if my jesting comment caused any confusion, and I further apologize for forgetting to put the four tildes after my comment (I'm still getting the hang of this---I even forget to sign in half the time). Anyhow, I won't forget to sign this one. AuH2ORepublican 18:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I'm a huge fan of humor (was even a standup comic back in the day)... but I'd caution against slinging those kinds of accusations (tongue in cheek or not) on politicians' talkpages, especially with tensions running high and an election in the not-too-distant future. I can see the humor now, but having "republican" in your username and the declaration that JFK slept with a Nazi spy and avoided going to prison because of political connections probably isn't going to have any sort of positive impact and certainly doesn't make me think you're working from a neutral point of view. Hope this doesn't offend. /Blaxthos 19:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
If I edit a main article, I stick to the facts and keep a NPOV (unfortunately, that does not appear to be the norm in political articles). However, if I'm cracking wise, I'm bound to take some liberties, which is why I included the : ). My joke was similar to, say, joking that "we'll need to keep an eye out for supporters of Giuliani who, to make him look "Reaganesque," may vandalize his article to claim that Rudy made a deal with Muslim terrorists (as an homage to Reagan sending VP nominee Bush to Paris to stave off an "October Surprise")," and I would hope that irrespective of my monicker I could make tongue-in-cheek comments (in the Discussion page, of course, never in the main article, although again I wish that everyone took the same position on that; a lot of my edits have beenm to erase "jokes" from other editors) about Republicans or Democrats alike. Anyways, thanks for the explanation. AuH2ORepublican 15:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Vandalism"

What a laugh. The article is currently using a source to assert something that is flatly untrue on its own premises. The article refers to a Krauthammer article which correctly quotes Edwards in criticizing him in order that it may misdirect the valid criticism of Edwards towards The Drudge Report and its misquote as if the effect was entirely different for those that responded negatively. This not only denies that legitimate criticism but as well uses sources for purposes that are undermined simply by reading what they say.

Here's Edwards's actual quote:

If we can do the work that we can do in this country – the work we will do when John Kerry is president – people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk. Get up out of that wheelchair and walk again.

Here's the misquote from The Drudge Report:

"When John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk. Get up out of that wheelchair and walk again."

Here's how the Krauthammer article that is linked to quotes Edwards:

If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk, get up out of that wheelchair and walk again. [1] [The very source used in the article]

Does that sound as if he is simply "[r]eacting to the misquote", as the article is now stating as fact? Is that an accurate representation of Edwards's speech and the controversy, that he was misquoted and everyone was fine with the substance of his remarks when they were clarified? Apparently some editors are content not bothering to examine this. Any others are prevented from editing it. 129.71.73.248 06:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Register a user name and in a few days, you will be able to edit this article. No one is stopping you from doing that. Frankly, I was involved in removing that quote a while ago but gave up when several edits kept putting it back and now it looks like two completely different takes on it have been fused together so that it seems that they are talking about each other when they are not. Gdo01 07:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been out of the loop. Has Wikipedia policy changed and anonymous use is now officially disallowed and discouraged? I could register a name yes but do not see the point in that. In fact, the only point I see here is that one version must be protected and in the course of this a very valid content dispute is treated as "vandalism". My, the vanity. 129.71.73.248 07:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Well if vandalism is uncontrollable, it is better to keep a bad version than to allow harmful changes that could make it worse. Apparently, anonymous users have been the problem. Temporarily blocking their edits is a way to protect the current integrity of the page. As you can see from the history [2], this page was hit several times by anonymous vandalism. Unfortunately, good editors are caught up in the collateral damage. Other than that, I suggest you not try to be cynical. There is no conspiracy to keep you from editing, Wikipedia is not against you, and protecting a page from further damage is not vanity. Gdo01 07:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand me a bit. There are plenty of bad apples (anonymous and not), but the protection happened mightily fast after complaints were made about my edits. I did not see anything on the Rfp page about John Edwards so the evidence only shows an informal wish by one party was granted. This does not necessitate site-wide conspiracy, but involves at least quite a bit of bad faith and/or laziness. 129.71.73.248 07:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I was not involved in the protection of the page so I didn't know you were the party who was deemed responsible for the protection. I thought you were just an anonymous user who was not involved. Well I really have no more to say, I don't know any of the details on the protection or what edits caused it. Gdo01 07:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I finally found a request which was purged quickly (perhaps there is a much bigger load now). Given the time that it was made and its mention of "heavy IP vandalism" I don't see how it could be targeted at anything else. 129.71.73.248 07:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I just figured that one of the versions was arbitrarily quoting Krauthammer, while the last (sprotected) version was not correctly quoting him. I put up a version without any Krauthammer words (actual or alleged by us) because the whole text is there for anyone who likes his rants and/or depth of opinion. Can we agree on that? Kncyu38 10:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

How do you "arbitrarily" quote someone when the issue is what the reaction and controversy was (and it was rather significant)? MediaMatters was previously allowed to determine the argument and now is the only one speaking its mind. Here's what I seem to understand happened: the MM article was inserted, attempting to insinuate carelessness on the part of all Edwards critics; Krauthammer was in that piece given as literally responding to the misquote but a further link was added to a completely separate article of Krauthammer's. In that piece, he quotes him accurately and obviously does not feel that it changes the intention or effect of Edwards's claims (and personally I don't see how any intellectually honest person would think so). So no I don't agree to the current edit. It seems to either wish to sidestep the substance of the issue in favor of reporting the misquote or to simply disfavor the critics and disallow their own words in favor of MM. And I would love to change it "at will" if you and perhaps the editor on Rfp did not decide to term it "vandalism". 129.71.73.248 18:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Please calm down, it was only an attempt, I will leave to other editors now. Kncyu38 09:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section about the misquotation of Edwards on Christopher Reeve: at this point in time it had undue weight in the article, way too prominent for what was even at that time a fairly minor item. And it does not seem to have had staying power. Tvoz | talk 22:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Home Purchase

I recently contributed a report that Edwards had purchased the largest and most expensive home in Orange County, North Carolina. I feel that since his campaign in based on poverty, and the "two different" Americas for the rich and the poor, that it is important to note this potential hypocrisy in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kishap5 (talk • contribs).

The home information is already in the article under the "early life, education, and family" subsection. Additionally, the wording you inserted did not adhere to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
He did very well as a lawyer so what? He can't buy a house now? Where is the hipocrisy that you speak of? Ecostaz 21:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not feel that the current language in the "early life, education, and family" meets the standard of "unbiased". In particular, the long list of rooms in the house is out of keeping with the biographical nature of that section, and is clearly intended to make a political point about the size or purported extravagance of the house. Asa Hopkins, 23:55, 20 February 2007 (PST) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.50.156.70 (talk) 07:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
Would you rather he hoard all his money rather than pay the largest property tax bill in Orange County that will go to funding public schools? Has John Edwards ever said he does not believe people should be able to be wealthy? He's always stated that he wants people to have the same opportunities that he had. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terando (talk • contribs) 20:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
Wikipedia articles are not the place for ideologues to express their feelings about the subject, especially when those feelings are based on something so blatantly irrational -- it's not hypocritical for rich people to decry poverty. Rather, it would be hypocritical for rich people who decry poverty to act as if they too were impoverished. Note that, in discussing health care, Edwards says that every American should be able to get the sort of health care that he and his wife do, not that his wife should forego treatment because there are people too poor to afford that sort of care; to call that "hypocritical" or "tone deaf" is inane. -- Jibal 05:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-War activist

I deleted the Iraq war activist category. See discussion there. If all people that somehow criticize the execution of the war, although they initially supported and considered it a "cake walk" the category tends to become close to meaningless.

The category's definition drew my attention since people wanted to add Yaron Brook to it, which is pretty absurd.

Both Brook and Edwards would fit a category like: Iraq-war execution critics. A category that will contain a high percentage of US politicians, mirroring the polls anti-Iraq war sentiments. Helpful in the Iraq-war execution critics would be a subcategory like pro or contra an "ideological clash of cultures" or the "decisive ideological struggle against radical Islam. A narrative that feels a bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy, or a tool to raise the defense budget.LeaNder 16:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marcotte and McEwan

Regarding the two bloggers on Edwards' staff who have recently come under fire, the article states that on Feb. 7th, Salon.com reported that they had been fired. But, today (Feb. 8th) I read a New York Times article that stated that Edwards had decided to keep them on his staff. Can someone verify this and elaborate as to the controversy? --Delong71487 03:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Charges of Bigotry Fly in John Edwards Blogger Flap
WASHINGTON — In response to John Edwards' refusal to fire two staffers for "intolerant" Web postings, the president of the nation's largest Catholic civil rights group said he will launch a campaign next week to point out "the double-standard that [Edwards] is the kingmaker of." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251009,00.html Crocoite 21:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that if we're going to take these charges of "bigotry" seriously, we need to note exactly where they're coming from, since Bill Donohue appears to be the main source of this thing. Bill Donohue, who has said "And then they wonder why so many people don't trust the Muslims when it comes to liberty, because they will abuse it" and "If you asked them [hollywood] to sodomize their own mother in a movie, they would do so", among other tidbits that are noted in his Wikipedia article, is crying foul over "bigotry". All this to say: why, exactly, is anyone taking what this guy has to say seriously? Methinks he's not a reliable source of anything. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
It's muckraking... political hay, with tainted and obviously POV source. /Blaxthos 19:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
If conservative William Donohue was the only Catholic who thought that Edwards's bloggers had posted bigoted anti-Catholic comments, there would be no problem with calling this "muckraking" and ignpring the issue. However, when the leader of National Democratic Ethnic Leadership Council, Brian O'Dwyer, makes similar comments, it is clear that the issue is not merely one of right-wingers wanting to attack liberal bloggers (and Edwards by proxy). This article sums up the reaction to the story among many in the "Christian left": (removed copyrighted text) [3] AuH2ORepublican 17:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I think you may want to remove the pasted text from here; we can all click on a link, and it reeks slightly of copyright violation. In any case, I added the resolution of the story, noted that Salon was wrong when they reported that McEwan and Marcotte had been fired, and linked to the campaign's statements. grendel|khan 22:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about that. AuH2ORepublican 23:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
This portion of the article needs to be more neutral. Right now it's basically alleging the Catholic League is making a big deal about nothing, yet the author of the blog reffered to the Virgin Mary taking an abortion pill, and reffering to "sticky white Holy Spirit." Are you kidding me? Make the article less biased, and stop taking the efforts to make it more neutral out. Johnnybgood1234 (talk 23:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
You have a different definition of "neutrality" than Wikipedia does. Labeling someone as "anti-Catholic" or "anti-Christian" without a citation to a reliable source is not neutral. Bill Donohue is not a reliable source for this information. Actually, labeling someone as anti-Christian who is/was working for the political campaign of a Methodist is just illogical. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Given your unsupportable use of "anti-Christian" on the page, and your unsupportable use of "abortion pill" here (see emergency contraception), you should realize that you're bringing your own bias to the article. Marcotte is explicitly not anti-Catholic. The Catholic League is not an official organ of the Catholic Church; there are other Catholic groups (e.g., Catholics for a Free Choice) who have made their opinions clear on this, and come out in support of Marcotte. The result that we can draw is that Marcotte is popular with lefty Catholics and unpopular with righty Catholics, which we already knew (replace the word "Catholics" with "bloggers", "Jews", "baseball players" or whatever you want); if Marcotte were truly anti-Christian or anti-Catholic, she would likely not have garnered such support from Catholics. grendel|khan 14:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
If someone mocks and attacks the tenents of someone's faith, then they are anti- whatever religion and/or political belief that details. As far as the "lefty Catholics" who agree with her, there are also Jews that deny the Holocaust. Just because you have the support of a radical, uninformed sect of the offended group, doesn't make the statements any less hate-filled or bigoted. Johnnybgood1234 talk 15:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
But you're still left with Bill Donohue being the instigator of the claim and the main person attempting to perpetuate the "outrage". Sorry, he's just not a reliable source to make the leap from what Marcotte wrote on a blog to being able to objectively label her "anti-Christian". Another problem is the claim that she's "notably" anti-Catholic". Hmm, when I think of someone who is "notably" anti-catholic, people like this come to mind. I disagree that someone can be "notably anti-Catholic/Christian" because of a blog post or two from months ago. · j e r s y k o talk · 15:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Please note that citing the Catholic League as your source is exactly what I've been talking about in regard to Bill Donohue--it's not a reliable source for the claim that someone is "notably anti-Catholic" or "notably made anti-Catholic claims". · j e r s y k o talk · 16:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I concur. It's a reliable source for a claim that Bill Donohue and the Catholic League called Marcotte anti-Catholic, but nothing else. grendel|khan 16:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a fair compromise. The article previously noted that Donohue alleged that they made anti-Catholic statements on their blogs in the past, but it had since been removed. We cannot label them anti-Catholic/Christian objectively, nor should we call their alleged anti-Catholicism "notable". But the article should note what Donohue's general charge is, as it once did. · j e r s y k o talk · 16:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
"Allegedly" sounds over-weaselly; I changed it to specifically refer to Donohue's interpretation. I'm considering mentioning the letter from Catholics for a Free Choice with a "some Catholics disagreed" note on it, as well as the effort to initiate legal action against the Catholic League for getting into politics--there are rules about doing that if you're a charity--but I'm unsure whether we need to go into quite so much detail. grendel|khan 16:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I edited it to say "Donohue among other Catholics". I believe it's a fair play of words because it's stating that there are other Catholics who are pissed as well; however, not the entire demographic, as you pointed out. Johnnybgood1234|johnnybgood1234 19:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Just cleaned it up a bit - it was really choppy. The Salon mishap was before any ref to anyone asking that they be fired so I tried to make it flow better. Bundas 01:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: The non-neutral POV tag currently on this section. I'm a Democrat, and a Catholic, and after reading this section several times carefully, examining the linked pages, and knowledge of the incident, I really can't see why this is tagged as non neutral. It's not flattering towards some parties, but I see nothing non-factual. The bloggers had made some remarks, they claim they were satire, Donohue claims they were not. None of those facts are in dispute. Further, Salon mistakenly claimed they were fired, they later resigned. Also facts not in dispute. The entire passage is footnoted as well. I think people sometimes confuse the presentation of unflattering facts as bias. I see no reason this should be cited as non-neutral. Grey Hodge 18:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ann Coulter remark

Ann Coulter has recently alleged that John Edwards is a closeted homosexual. [[4]] I am unsure if this was said tongue in cheek, but the youtube tape seems to indicate she actually believes this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.222.5 (talk • contribs).

No way that's going in this article unless a big fuss is made, as Ann Coulter is perhaps one of the most unreliable sources imaginable. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It was used more as a slur than as a charge. Anything to get a few headlines. Coulter is just a media whore. --DavidShankBone 19:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
It wasn't an allegation, it was Ann Coulter being an ass to increase her noteriety and sell more books. However it is a notable campaign event in that John Edwards responded by displaying the video itself on his donation web form and is soliciting for "Coulter Cash". More information: https://johnedwards.com/action/contribute/coulter - AbstractClass 04:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The recently added section about Coulter is screaming "undue weight" at me. This isn't really about Edwards; it's about Coulter. I would be alright with not mentioning Coulter in this article at all, but the incident certainly shouldn't be discussed nearly as much as it is now (even having a subsection devoted to it is too much imo). · j e r s y k o talk · 00:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

She later said that it was a joke and she does not beleive that Edwards is not straight. She said that she used to word to mean "wuss" or pussy, not meaning homosexual. The remark definitely has no place in the Edwards bio. Ecostaz 00:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Totally disagree, particular as http://johnedwards.com/ has so prominently featured the video of her remarks. (→Netscott) 00:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Per my comment in the below subsection, do you agree or disagree that the incident is at least being given inappropriate weight in this article? · j e r s y k o talk · 00:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In the grand scheme of the article the section is likely too large due to WP:Recentism but again given the prominence and way that Edwards has himself responded to her remarks makes such a section completely qulalified to be in this article about him. (→Netscott) 00:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed undue weight and recentism might also be an issue. I will not push for total removal as per Netscott's comments, but Ann Coulter at most meant it as a bad joke and not a serious allegation of homosexuality. This is still a bio of a possible future president and such remarks should not be featured so prominently especially as they were not made seriously. Ecostaz 00:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think her alleged intent is of no relevance here -- it's the controversy that makes it significant, not how she justified her behavior. FWIW I agree with the undue weight argument below -- this should be two sentences. /Blaxthos 01:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Undue weight

I added a POV tag in lieu of edit warring because I believe recent edits (this series and this series) have caused this article to violate the neutral point of view policy by giving undue weight to the Coulter remarks (as I already mentioned in the above subsection) and the blogger stuff. I'm also concerned about recentism, which often accompanies undue weight concerns. My view is that the blogger edits be reverted entirely and that the Coulter remarks, if they are to be included at all, should be incorporated in a couple sentences in the Presidential campaign subsection. · j e r s y k o talk · 04:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree - remove section, add a few sentences in presidential campaign section; one about the remark, second about the reaction of the campaign. --DavidShankBone 05:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Also agree. Italiavivi 00:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to reduce the Ann Coulter paragraph and moved it to the 2008 presidential campaign section. Ecostaz 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the change. I removed the POV tag I added to the article, as I believe the undue weight concerns have now been addressed. · j e r s y k o talk · 15:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the actual language used by the bloggers should be included, especially since the article labels them "allegedly anti-Catholic" statements. It's like calling Mel Gibson's famous slurs allegedly anti-Semitic. Including the actual language is hardly undue weight. Indeed, the section is somewhat misleading without it. I would agree to a compromise: omit the offensive statements if the word "allegedly" is removed. Otherwise, leave the statements in and let the reader judge. Mamalujo 22:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, none of the text you've added gives the reader any more context by which to judge whether the comments are truly anti-Catholic than the text of the article without the additions does (the third example, "Bush's Christofascist base", doesn't even appear to be directed at Catholics on its face). Finally, using the word "retroactively" in regard to Marcotte's initial comment on the issue is pure POV, as it implies that Marcotte wasn't being truthful. Wikipedia should not judge whether the comments were truly anti-Catholic, as leaving out the word "allegedly" accomplishes. Wikipedia should merely report (1) that Bill Donohue thinks Marcotte made anti-Catholic comments and (2) that Marcotte says they were satirical. The additions to the article distort both. · j e r s y k o talk · 23:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political views page?

Both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have their political views page. As the third-most popular Democratic candidate, shouldn't Edwards have his own page similar to these? If so, I'll put in a request. JeffreyAtW 18:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, he should have one. Edwards has perhaps been the most forthcoming on his views thus far of the big three Democratic contenders (though Clinton has a somewhat more extensive record to work with, I suppose), so I imagine the article would have a substantial amount of material to work with. · j e r s y k o talk · 18:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
All right, it's been created. JeffreyAtW 22:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


I put in the health care edits that were taken down. I agree they may have been too much since their on the political views page. But I think what's there now is definately not enough since this is a, if not the defining issue of his campaign. Considering he's the only one with a detailed plan out right now and that most people will be looking here for his views rather than the political views page (is there even a prominent link for the political views page on this page?) I think there needs to be some happy medium between what is on the political views page and what is on this page. --Terando 03:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bloggers section longer than Coulter mention?

Anyone else think this weighting seems odd? Italiavivi 01:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The Coulter story wasn't really about Edwards. Sure he was the target of the term, but Edwards's involvement in the story ended with his response condemning Coulter's comment. The blogger incident, on the other hand, involved Edwards for an extended period of time and involved multiple actions by him and his campaign staff. So no, it's not oddly weighted.--Bobblehead 01:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current Event

I'm putting a Current Event tag here. His campaign said they would hold a news conference in their hometown Thursday to discuss her health. Rumor is she has cancer again.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070322/ap_on_el_pr/edwards2008

Oh yEs itS caRly 04:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

That made sense earlier, when it wasn't known what that announcement would be, but I removed the current event tag this evening, as the announcement was definitive that at this time although Mrs. Edwards has a health problem, the campaign is going on, at full stem. So it seems that at this time there is no more current event. Tvoz | talk 22:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medical plan

There is a paragraph with 2 sentences in it. The 2 sentences contradict each other. One cites Edwards as saying everyone will pay. The other says only the high tax bracket people will pay (implying that it's free for everyone else??). I did not write the sentences. It has been there for a long, long time. It is possible that Edwards said both things.

The reference cited is a dead link. Therefore, a citation needed has been added. Another sentence has been clarified, i.e. single payor term is not defined so I made a slight change for clarity but left the wording largely intact. The word was to say that Medicare is the single payor.HumanThing 00:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs. Edwards's cancer

Are we kidding ourselves?? The article puts a lot of stock into her cancer being completely treatable. The sad fact is that this is BAD, very bad news for her. Is it just a lawyer talking? I mean that phrase that all things are completely treatable. A gunshot to the head is completely treatable but often not curable. Do we even need to mention that quote since it's a bit misleading to the seriousness of the condition? Why not just cut it out (the part about the disease being completely treatable)? Of course we should leave in the part that it is stage UV metastatic breast cancer and that the campaign is going on. DelloJello 23:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

We need to report what can be verified in reliable sources on it. Going further, whether ultimately correct or not, steps into unpermitted original research. · j e r s y k o talk · 23:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Exactly - we are reporting what Edwards said at the press conference, not what our opinion is. Tvoz | talk 23:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Dereks1x's edit regarding "stress[ing] the positive about the cancer without misleading reader of seriousness"[5] is based on the original research that the cancer is "terminal". The link provided to cancer.gov does not discuss Edwards, thus the original research to invoke it here. The reader can click on the links to Wikipedia articles on the cancer to find out about it; there is no reason to emphasize that point here. Doing so, regardless of good intentions (e.g. to raise awareness of breast cancer) or bad intentions (e.g. attempting to make Edwards look bad by implying he cares more about his campaign than his wife's deadly disease), is POV. · j e r s y k o talk · 00:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

72% of women with stage IV beast cancer are dead within 5 years. That's a fact. I think a large % is 2 years or less. deletion of text can be vandalism. If you can find better data, put it in the article, not delete!

What bad intentions? His wife agrees with campaigning.Dereks1x 01:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Why did you focus on the bad intention? My point was that regardless of intent, it's POV and OR. My edits were not vandalism and I resent the charge that they were (please see WP:AGF); I've explained myself clearly here with reference to Wikipedia policy. Please demonstrate how the text does not violate the polices I've cited here instead of edit warring. The original research is the insertion of the survivability (or possible lack thereof, though possibilities weren't given, merely the word "terminal" was used) that is unspecific to Edwards but related to a cancer that Mrs. Edwards just so happens to have. That's an improper synthesis under the original research policy. It should go. I'm flagging the subsection as containing original research in lieu of continued edit warring. · j e r s y k o talk · 02:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
To sum my above comment up, the information you're adding belongs in the metastatic breast cancer article (or something similar), not here, as you're improperly synthesizing information about the cancer with the Edwards' situation without a source that already does so. I.e., no one has said how long Mrs. Edwards lifespan is likely to be in the sources cited. · j e r s y k o talk · 02:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The current version is NPOV. It even mentions Mrs. Edwards' public statements even though they are EXTREMELY optimistic by saying she might be a little tired. I've seen breast cancer in my family. If I heard grandma say "I'm just going to be a little tired", I would be very concerned that she doesn't realize the seriousness (or is just trying to put on a calm face). However, I've compromised and deleted the word "terminal", OK?Dereks1x 02:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You've missed my point about synthesis / original research entirely. I tagged the subsection for original research, not POV. Please do not remove the tag again. I'll let you know if these concerns are addressed by any subsequent edits, and will be happy to remove the tag myself if they are. · j e r s y k o talk · 03:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I respectfully submit that this is not original research.
  • 1. I did not do the metastatic cancer reserach or make up the statistics. They are already published.,
  • 2. There is NPOV, nobody is saying Mr. or Mrs. Edwards is bad,
  • 3. We are only stating the facts, i.e. she has stage IV metastatic breast cancer, a disease with a very low survival rate. However, we present the Edwards' positive characterization of it, even if it is, frankly, overly positive.
  • NPOV is important. Otherwise, with Watergate, we'd only report what Nixon said, "I am not a crook, did nothing wrong and any wikipedia text about details of the break-in should be edited out." Ok, Nixon just said the first phrase about not being a crook.Dereks1x 03:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
To address the most salient point: yes, you did not make up the cancer stats, but you did improperly synthesize the cancer stats with Elizabeth Edwards when the sources cited did not do so. Improper synthesis = original research. · j e r s y k o talk · 03:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • There is no synthesis, merely stating the facts. The facts do not put the Edwards in a negative way. In fact, one newspaper article says "Attacks on Edwards -- either overt or covert -- will be more difficult for his rivals to launch. There is no more sympathetic figure than a husband taking care of his ill wife, so it would be highly risky for any of Edwards's opponents to say anything but glowing things about him and about Elizabeth's strength under difficult circumstances.
  • I also found this though I don't think it needs to be added. "The average survival rate has been 2 1/2 to five years, CBS News medical correspondent Dr. Jon LaPook reports"
  • Elizabeth Edwards's oncologist, speaking to reporters after the couple left, said the breast cancer has advanced to Stage IV and has spread to her bones and possibly a lung and other organs. Lisa A. Carey, the oncologist, said the disease has worsened beyond the point of being cured -- it is so serious that no surgery can treat it.
  • She declined to address the question of life expectancy, saying that in some cases the prognosis is not good, whereas other patients live "a number of years." (those 7-20% of people who live 5 years).
  • In short, this is REALLY bad. The current wording as of now is very positive, contains only the most relevant stuff. In fact, I'm surprised that people aren't editing it more frankly unlike the polite and very postive spin that I've written.Dereks1x 03:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Until a doctor has said "Mrs. Edwards has x to y amount of time to live", the information is synthesis / original research. The question of whether this is a "positive" or "negative" light for Edwards is another matter entirely, and one that I'm not addressing right now (please keep the original research / NPOV distinction in mind). · j e r s y k o talk · 04:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Believe me! The wording is very neutral and truthful. If you need them to admit it, then Nixon did not do anything wrong until a) he says "I am a crook", or b) he is impeached. The fact is "she has stage IV metastatic breast cancer, a disease that has poor survival rates". Orginal research would be "she has cancer and is likely die before the year 20--" which is NOT what is being said.

Furthermore, consider this from the Edwards wikipedia article "Before the 2004 Senate election, Edwards announced his retirement from the Senate and supported Erskine Bowles, former White House Chief of Staff". Why doesn't someone say that is original research, i.e., the former White House Chief of Staff part is further description of Mr. Bowles? All we are doing is defining the term, i.e. she has metastatic cancer, which (we don't use the word "bad survival" in order to be NPOV) 80-93% do not survive past 5 years". If we don't have this, it really is POV because then we are covering up and making it sound rosy. Cancer is bad. That's reality. That's like saying we are winning in Iraq. That's bad to be overly rosy. Dereks1x 05:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I strenuously object to the way this paragraph is now worded. This is not an article about metastatic cancer, it is an article about John Edwards, and by extension, about his wife. All that is relevant is what has been publicly, and verifiably, said about the Edwards' specific situation. What we said in the article correctly reflected what the Edwards are saying. Not anyone else's assumptions, research, analysis or synthesis of the facts, which is what these additions are doing. I think the text should be reverted to what we had previously. Tvoz | talk 05:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Dereks1x, you continue to have a poor understanding of Wikipedia's policies. The point of this article is not to cover anything up or to fully record every aspect of the events, that's why there are links to breast cancer and metastasis in the article. If the person is interested in finding out more information about those things, then they can go to the article about them, they don't need to read it here. It may very well be true that there is a 75% mortality rate for metastasized breast cancer, but that does not mean Mrs. Edwards has a 75% chance of dying. The original research aspect is that you're applying those numbers to Mrs. Edwards. All that is known at this point is that she has metastasized breast cancer and that it isn't curable, but it is treatable. You seem to be under the misunderstanding that The Truth overrides everything else. I could include in an article that someone is a complete and utter wanker and it could be absolutely true, but unless I could properly attribute that statement, it doesn't belong in the article. You seriously need to spend more time reading up on Wikipedia's policies. --Bobblehead 05:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoa! When I saw this talk page, I thought I was really going to see some horrible stuff. Yet, looking at the article, it seems fine. There's no spin, nobody saying the Edwards family is not telling the truth. It merely states that she has metastatic breast cancer but that she is upbeat. Where's this "original research" stuff? It's all well cited and written in a matter of fact tone. Peace, man!HumanThing 05:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. As a new editor, I recommend you take a look at this portion of Wikipedia's no original research policy and note that the article is essentially providing Mrs. Edwards with a prognosis regarding how long she is likely to live without a source that does so for her specifically. Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Bobblehead's latest changes are a big improvement. The only thing I would suggest is to not include the general prognosis statistics for the reasons Jersyko states: no one has indicated what her specific prognosis is at this time, and until that is made public, I think we should not state it. Linking to articles about the illness are fine, and readers can follow them and draw whatever conclusions they wish. But I think we should stick to what is publicly known and specific to Elizabeth Edwards, which likely will evolve. I also think we should replace this: 'Mrs. Edwards further noted a positive outlook on life when she stated that she plans to campaign with her husband.' with the previous: 'Mrs. Edwards stated that she recognizes that her medication may occasionally "make her tired" but plans to campaign with her husband' which comes directly from their press conference. Tvoz | talk 15:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not at all opposed to the suggested changes. The only reason I modified, but kept the survival rate was because it was still under discussion on this page. There are innumerable factors that can impact a person's survival rate, so applying the rate to a single person is extremely difficult. The American Cancer Society even cautions against doing so.[6] --Bobblehead 16:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
This part is well sourced, every single statement of it. What's with all the talk about original research, stop it. Wikipedia also has a Ignore all rules policy to be able to use common sense instead of rules lawyering. Ecostaz 16:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
OR is still under discussion here. I added the transcript of the press conference as a reference and reinstated her name in the header. Tvoz | talk 17:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the compromise language, which I did NOT write, at least in the last few versions is what we should stick with. Of course, each of us would have written it differently but there is only 1 Edwards article in wikipedia, not 50. I think the OR claim is not valid enough to change the article.
Look at the phrase in the article, "While at UNC, he met fellow law student Elizabeth Anania, who is four years his senior". If one claims the cancer section is OR, how about "four years his senior"? No source says this. The editor just did some math, which is original research in the strictest sence. In the cancer section, there is mention to the effect "she has stage IV metastatic cancer, which has a 20% survival rate past 5 years." This is simply fact. It does not say if she is in the 20% or 80% group, nobody knows.
This also shows NPOV because the Edwards are giving an extremely rosy picture to the public. It could be just trying to have positive outlook...if it's that, it's great! However, it's potentially bad in terms of public education about metastatic breast cancer. What the press reports didn't say but Mrs. Edwards did say on TV was that she knows what she will die from (i.e. breast cancer).
How about calling the current wording as the one we stick with?Dereks1x 18:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Your analogy to Elizabeth's age is defective, as age subtraction is outside of the realm of original research since it is not being used to "advance a position" but rather to merely state an objective fact about the Edwards. Discussing the survivability of Elizabeth's cancer, however, in connection with discussing her particular condition without regard to her particular diagnosis goes beyond merely stating objective fact about the disease as it strongly implies that Elizabeth does not have long to live without a source that does exactly that. Thus, it is used to advance the position that Elizabeth will most likely pass away in the next 5 years (or thereabouts) through synthesizing two sources: (1) Elizabeth Edwards has x-type of cancer and (2) x-type of cancer has y survival rate, implying (3) Elizabeth Edwards has y survival rate. · j e r s y k o talk · 19:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Mention of Mrs. Edwards' being 4 years older may be intended as a slur about the Senator marrying an older woman???? There is no implying #3 as you state. This is your own fear. Nothing in the wikipedia article says her lifespan. Delete the mortality phrase and you really get distorted info (i.e. The Mrs. is only going to be a little tired, she has a completely treatable condition, etc.) Given that America is a big country, that could end up killing someone who thinks that metastatic breast cancer is nothing to worry about and a 1 or 2 month delay or missing doctor appointments is ok. The current language, which isn't my #1 choice, is simply factual and doesn't advance a position.
Actually, your #3, even if true, is not original research, it would be a factual statement (i.e. Mrs. Edwards has a condition that has a --% survival rate, if Mrs. Edwards doesn't actually have the --- disease, then her survival rate is different). However #3 has never been written in the wikipedia article. Dereks1x 20:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
But by even discussing my #2 in this article, #3 is automatically implied. In fact, if #3 is not implied, why is it even relevant to Elizabeth Edwards? It shouldn't even be in this article if it's not, not for original research, but for irrelevancy. Regarding your interest in advancing the cause of breast cancer awareness as part of including this information, please note that Wikipedia is not a soapbox; that's not a reason to include such information. · j e r s y k o talk · 20:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

How can anyone assert that Elizabeth Edwards is *asymptomatic* when she has a BROKEN RIB? Her rib snapped and that is what brought her to the doctor. A snapped rib, when one has bone cancer in the rib, is a SYMPTOM of the bone cancer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.82.9.65 (talk • contribs).

This too is OR. We cannot make assumptions or interpretations of the facts that are available to us. Unless a reliable source says what Elizabeth Edwards' specific case details are, we should not include anyone's suppositions. Elizabeth Edwards asserted that she is asymptomatic, and that is what we go with unless we are given other reliably sourced information. Not what is generally said about the disease - what is specifically said about her case. We are going around and around and around on this simple and clear point. I do not support the wording that includes any statistics about the disease - that is what links are for. This is not a matter of compromising, this is a matter of straight-forward wikipedia policy. Tvoz | talk 21:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I heard about the rib injury, too. (Accuse me of being a puppet, J. Charge me). and that other user who mentioned about the rib........I did not include the rib part in my revision because I did not think it was important enough. There is a real danger if we put too positive a spin on the cancer....oh, it's nothing, be happy, the show goes on, maybe even skip the doctor's appointment and reschedule it....NOT! The info presented in the article is fair and balanced. If we portray stage IV metastatic breast cancer as just making you tired, we are doing a disservice to America and are not telling the truthDereks1x 23:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

They also think it may be in her lungs, too.Dereks1x 23:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise wording

How about this compromise?????It's all factual and very specific for Mrs. Edwards..... At a press conference[46] on March 22 (add 2007), John and his wife, Elizabeth, announced that she has stage IV breast cancer[47] (add with newly discovered metastases to her bone and a suspicious focal abnormality in her lung, conditions which reduce the prognosis keep citation, add more citations), (delete: a condition that has a 20% survival rate past 5 years.[48] They stated that the cancer was "no longer curable, but is completely treatable."[49][50] Furthermore, they also announced that the campaign was continuing full steam, and there would be no suspension of the campaign despite erroneous media speculation to that effect after the press conference was scheduled.[51] Mrs. Edwards further noted a positive outlook on life when she stated that she plans to campaign with her husband. Former Senator Edwards, for his part, stated that he would take an occasional break from campaigning when his wife requires treatment, but said "The campaign goes on, The campaign goes on strongly."Dereks1x 23:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest removing "conditions which reduce the prognosis" from that as well as "noted a positive outlook on life when she". The former remains OR without citation, the latter POV. Otherwise, the changes look good. · j e r s y k o talk · 23:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
No: this is improved, but I can't agree to this and I don't thnk Jersyko meant for it to be posted and tag removed until we reached consensus so I am reverting pending the outcome of this discussion. Neither the press conference transcript, nor either of the two articles that were given as specific citations at this point in the article - the CNN and the USA Today - none of these say "a suspicious focal abnormality to the lung" as this edit implies. In fact the CNN piece does not even mention the word "lung" and the USA Today piece reports that her doctor said "it is possible the cancer had spread to a lung, but additional tests will be needed." All three sources say that the cancer had recurred in bone, specifically a rib. Can we please stick to what was said at the press conference and reported on regarding what the Edwards' and her doctor have announced? In addition to other concerns, we could have a BLP concern here if we go off making assumptions about diagnosis and prognosis. I am glad to see the suggested wording removed the "positive outlook" wording, but would prefer to also reinstate something from the press conference that the Edwards' actually said. That is how this section has been framed: that the Edwards' called a press conference to announce news about Mrs. Edwards' health and how it would affect the campaign and her, and his, participation in it. That's all. What the Edwards' press conference revealed regarding her medical condition and the campaign. When they announce other things, or verifiable reliable sources report other things, we will reflect it. I'm reverting back to the last version, pending consensus. Tvoz | talk 00:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I made the good faith assumption that the sources did support the assertions made. If they do not, I agree with Tvoz; the edits are not any better. · j e r s y k o talk · 00:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Since my edit was included in Tvoz's revert, how about:
At a press conference[1] on March 22, John and his wife, Elizabeth, announced that she has stage IV breast cancer with newly discovered metastasis to the bone and a possibility that it may have spread to a lung.[2][3] They stated that the cancer was "no longer curable, but is completely treatable."[4] The Edwards also announced that they planned to continue campaigning together with an occasional break when Elizabeth requires treatment, saying "The campaign goes on, The campaign goes on strongly." [5][1] This ended erroneous media speculation prior to the press conference that the Edwards would announce a suspension of the campaign.[6]
--Bobblehead 01:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Again assuming the sources support the assertions made, sure. · j e r s y k o talk · 01:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Bobblehead's wording is fine - and those references do support this text. Thank you. And Bobblehead: sorry for stepping on your edit - my revert and edit summary were referring to Dereks1x's previous one - I didn't see that you had put one in as I was cutting and pasting mine. I agree with your removal of those extraneous citations. Tvoz | talk 02:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry about it. Your edit summary was equally applicable to my edit as it was to Dereks1x's. I didn't realize there was a discussion in progress about compromise wording and probably shouldn't have made the edit. Heck, I wouldn't have realized you had reverted my edit if I hadn't had to go back in to fix my horrible grammar. That being said, we should wait a bit and see if Dereks1x wishes to comment on the wording. --Bobblehead 02:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Cancer and death is a very serious matter. It is not a joking matter and nothing to be taken lightly. Therefore, I have requested an expert to comment on the phrase.

The expert could write something to prevent public misconception and complacency about metastatic cancer. For example, the expert could consider either the current compromise language or include some serious language to offset the comments of "completely treatable" and comparison to diabetes. A possibility could be "While the family characterized metastatic breast cancer as 'completely treatable' and made a comparison to diabetes, the public should be cautioned about the seriousness of the development and discuss it with their physician, if they are similarly affected."Dereks1x 17:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Your suggested changes are blatant original research (experts can be responsible for OR, of course, see Frist, Bill in re Terry Shiavo) and your professed motivation involves soapboxing. I disagree with the request. · j e r s y k o talk · 17:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The safety of the public is of the paramount concern. The expert can decide the appropriate language. It appears that you are already rejecting expert advice even though none as been presented yet (in these 4 minutes). If even one person dies as a result of sloppy editing or hiding the serious of cancer, then we as wikipedia editors have done a grave injustice to society and have committed harm.

Remember, nobody is saying "Edwards is bad". We're simply saying "we need balanced language because of patient safety.Dereks1x 17:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't take this personally. I'm not attacking you, I'm addressing your ideas as expressed on this talk page. You've got this all wrong. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and an encyclopedia only. It is not the proper forum to raise awareness about public health campaigns, as doing so involves original research and soapboxing. What I am rejecting is your attempt to use this article as a soapbox about public health when the article is actually about politician John Edwards. · j e r s y k o talk · 17:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Believe me, I understand what you are saying! However, patient safety is more important that hiding information. In the Saddam article, there isn't a reference to Saddam claiming victory after the 1991 Gulf War even though he said it. Similarly, just because the honorable Senator and his family said that metastatic is "completely curable" and compared it to diabetes doesn't mean that we have to report it (like Saddam's claiming victory). I think it is possible to tactfully mention the truth of that kind of condition in the same paragraph without calling the Senator a liar. In doing so, we are helping the public and maintaining patient safety.Dereks1x 17:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see you're willing to discuss this civilly, Dereks1x. And yes, I am being sarcastic. At this point you aren't adding anything to the discussion. If you feel that your issues are not being addressed in a satisfactory manner, you are free to proceed down the dispute resolution process, beginning with a request for comment. --Bobblehead 18:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea. I'll say once more that the purpose of this encyclopedia article is to serve as a biography of a living person (See WP:BLP), John Edwards. It is not a place to disseminate any information about cancer or any other topic other than about John Edwards. We do not need a "medical expert" to analyze Mrs. Edwards' statement - we are reporting what John and Elizabeth Edwards, and her doctor, have publicly stated. We are not charged with making judgments about it. Perhaps you can forward your suggestion to the Edwards campaign if you are truly concerned, and join the editors on the ncancer pages where such discussion may be valid. It does not belong here. Unless any other editors weigh in with a problem rearding Bobblehead's paragraph above, I am going to add the paragraph this afternoon and remove the OR tag. I appreciate Jersyko's evenhanded handling of this matter by adding the hidden language and expert tag, but I think it is unwarranted and I would also like consensus to remove the language and the medical expert tag. Tvoz | talk 18:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The request for expert tag just got placed. It should remain for 7-10 days, at least, to allow expert comment. After all, this is a potentially life and death issue regarding giving people a false and overly rosy picture of this stage of breast cancer. Removing the current language and replacing it with Bobblehead's draft is reasonable since it's been there (or similar versions) for a few days. Once again, there is more leeway to discuss editorial style. However, life and death issues take such an importance that we should allow an expert to give us advice and not take away the tag too soon. You may disagree with me about editorial style but I hope we are in complete agreement that we should err on the side of patient safety and allow expert advice on wording. Who knows? The expert might say "ok with me to say ...."Dereks1x 20:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No, we are not in agreement at all. This is not an article about breast cancer, it is an article about John Edwards. Read my last comment. Tvoz | talk 08:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I doubt anyone agrees with that, Dereks1x, as you're inviting original research with a soapboxing motivation. Two policy violations. Wikipedians generally don't like those. · j e r s y k o talk · 12:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

An good expert could resolve the problem and not soapbox or do original research. That is what an expert is for. I hope you are not dismissing an expert's advice even before it's given. If so, that may be an indication of lack of impartiality and lack of NPOV. An expert is an expert for a reason, i.e. they do work in the field well. In fact, I already have an idea (not mentioned so far) but I'll won't mention it now while waiting for an expert.Dereks1x 23:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless the expert publishes his/her findings in a reliable source and somehow makes a connection between Edwards and cancer in the publication, it's still unverified original research. Please try to understand that. · j e r s y k o talk · 23:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The call for expert tag has been replaced. If Jersyko (one who deleted) is interested in reasoning, see Jersko talk page. Above comment by Jersyko appears to show prejudice even before expert makes comment. Jersyko is ASSUMING what an expert will say and is dismissing it or is dismissing anything an expert says (even if expert's edit fully complies with wikipedia standards) outright even before it's written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x (talk • contribs).

No, I'm just "assuming" that, you know, an expert needs to say something in a published reliable source before we say anything about it in this Wikipedia article. I haven't the foggiest idea (unlike you, apparently), what such an expert might say. Calling for an expert to conduct an independent assessment because of a tag in a Wikipedia article then trying to include said unpublished opinion in this article is original research, and I can now say with confidence, politically motivated original research. · j e r s y k o talk · 20:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blatant political motives

Based on this series of edits by Dereks1x, I think it is now clear that his motives are political and not in the interest of following Wikipedia policy.[7] [8] [9] In sum, Dereks1x is arguing to exclude basically the same information from the Tony Snow article that he's arguing to include in this article. He even asked me to help out at the Tony Snow article because he thought I was arguing effectively here on the same point. I see no substantive reason to take Dereks1x's arguments on Mrs. Edwards' cancer seriously from now on, as there is now evidence that compels us to refrain from assuming good faith in regard to these arguments. · j e r s y k o talk · 03:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith! The reason for the expert tag is because the Edwardses have released statements that I consider misleading and potentially a danger to the public. These statements included saying that the metastasis was completely treatable and comparing it to diabetes. Cancer is not diabetes. "Completely" treatable is misleading. Imagine if there someone was suing for malpractice and the defense lawyers said, "but Ma'am, cutting off your leg by mistake is COMPLETELY treatable, just buy a wooden leg"? Technically true, but outrageous.
Furthermore, comments should be limited to editing the article, not trying to "prove" political motives by providing links. This kind of attempt encourages fighting and edit waring, which is against wikipedia policy. Assume good faith!

Dereks1x 19:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC) Call for an expert has been put back because it was previously removed. We need an expert for verification. Patient safety is at stake. The expert may be able to improve the article in a very wikipedic like way.Dereks1x 20:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Message to Medical Expert/Physician

In view of the potential danger to public health and safety, an medical expert is requested to assess Senator Edwards' comment that metastatic stage IV breast cancer is "completely treatable" and his comparison of the condition to diabetes or if a comment in this wikipedia article is warranted. There is grave concern that the Senator's statement might encourage complacency (even in one person) resulting in their death. The expert should consider whether there should be at least a brief mention of the seriousness of metastasis and that such warning is in the best interest of patient safety.

Other wikipedia editors should be assured that the purpose of this message is purely in the interest of public health and patient safety. It should not be construed in anyway as a message of support or lack of support for Senator Edwards.Dereks1x 17:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

See above - this is not the place for public health announcements. Tvoz | talk 18:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/24/60minutes/main2605038.shtml The cbsnews.com transcript of the Edwards' interview with Katie Couric is a good place for direct quotes from John and Elizabeth Edwards. The bone cancer is in her rib and her hip; they have chose not to radiate the hip because of potential complications causing hip breakage and there is the suspicious spot on her lung, on which they are still conducting tests. BTW, my husband is a breast surgeon and deals with stage IV breast cancer. He doesn't want to do this article but has told me in the past that in his experience with breast cancer, the staging ALMOST doesn't matter: he's seen women with stage I cancer die quickly and women with stage IV cancer live past five years. However, that was speaking of the initial diagnosis. In his speculation, (just for information here on the edit page and not to be included in the main page OBVIOUSLY, an infection or the lung cancer is going to be the thing that kills Elizabeth Edwards before anything else does. Bone cancer is fairly slow-growing, though painful. Again, none of this is for submission... just for information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.43 (talk • contribs).

[edit] More on cancer

I have seen the call for an expert a few lines above. I am a physician who has treated breast cancer in the past. I have publications about cancer (but not breast cancer) in peer reviewed journals and have made presentations at national and international meetings. I have no stake in this article. It is my intention to offer a medical opinion but not to become involved in a dispute of the wording or to take sides among editors.

I have paid attention not to use language that could be considered original research or soapboxing.

The use of the word "completely treatable" is inaccurate because there are certain treatment options that are no longer possible because of the worsening condition of Mrs. Edwards. Furthermore, there is a possibility of the public thinking that Mrs. Edwards' condition is less serious if there is mention of the condition being "completely" treatable, which the public may think is different from being merely "treatable". It is conceivable that a misunderstanding of disease by an individual could have a, to say the least, negative effect. A comparison of metastatic breast cancer to diabetes is very misleading because the only similarity of the two is that one should have regular follow-up with the doctor. A much high percentage of people do not live more than 5 years who have this stage of breast cancer compared to an extremely high percentage of people who have diabetes.

As further evidence that using the term "completely treatable" is ill-advised, consider what happened at the trial involving the pool which Mr. Edwards represented and won $25M. I very much doubt he would have said "this poor child has a condition that isn't curable, but completely, and I emphasize, completely treatable." "While it will be with her for life, the same thing could be said with diabetes. She has a condition just like diabetes."

The editors may wish to consider two version, which has intentionally used very similar language to the pre-existing wording:

At a press conference[51] on March 22, John and his wife, Elizabeth, announced that she has stage IV breast cancer with newly discovered metastasis to the bones (rib and hip [7] [8]) and a possibility that it may have spread to a lung.[52][53] They stated that the cancer was "no longer curable, but is completely treatable."[54] Mrs. Edwards' physician, who spoke at the news conference, was not reported to have used the term "completely treatable", but gave more specifics of the different treatments that were posssible and treatments that were no longer possible [9]. The Edwards also announced that they planned to continue campaigning together with an occasional break when Elizabeth requires treatment, saying "The campaign goes on, The campaign goes on strongly." [3][51] This ended erroneous media speculation prior to the press conference that the Edwards would announce a suspension of the campaign.[55]

At a press conference[51] on March 22, John and his wife, Elizabeth, announced that she has stage IV breast cancer with newly discovered metastasis to the bone (rib and hip [10] [11]) and a possibility that it may have spread to a lung.[52][53] They stated that the cancer was "no longer curable" but "treatable".[54] Their doctor was at the news conference to describe that some treatment options were possible to slow or shrink the cancer. [12] The Edwards also announced that they planned to continue campaigning together with an occasional break when Elizabeth requires treatment, saying "The campaign goes on, The campaign goes on strongly." [3][51] This ended erroneous media speculation prior to the press conference that the Edwards would announce a suspension of the campaign.[55]

I have added some references about the news conference.
I hope this helps.Doc United States 20:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC) I see that the references added don't appear. Here they are: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/26/us/politics/26edwards.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2981102&page=1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032200155.html They are news references, not articles from research journals, to avoid an original research slant, although textbooks and peer reviewed journals are better sources for learning about diseases.Doc United States 20:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

As confirmed by checkuser, Doc United States is merely a sock puppet of Dereks1x. My advice is to not take medical advice from sock puppets. · j e r s y k o talk · 12:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • As someone who treats breast cancer regularly I too have found the way this has been portrayed in the media as very innacurate for describing the average patient with stage IV breast cancer. Depending upon the biology of her tumor, this is sometimes a process measured in months rather then years of expected life. However, I think delving into the issues of oncologic statistics and outcome measures of breast cancer treatment really has no place in an entry on an individual. This event (in the context of of Mr. Edwards biography sketch) merits a much drier and succint presentation at this point in time Droliver 23:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
We are in agreement that this article is not the place for speculation or what amounts to original research (i.e., comments based not on knowledge of her particular case specifics) regarding Elizabeth Edwards' illness by lay people or by doctors. The only exception would be the Edwardses themselves, as he is the subject of the article (and by extension so is she), so their comments about her illness, and its effect on her and their family, and the expected effect on the campaign, are reasonable to include with appropriate refs as we did - not as medical education, but as relevant subject-specific content. I think the previous edit made it a bit too dry, so I reinstated a little bit of what the Edwardses said, and I think this language is essentially fine as it is now, unless there is a change in the news. Tvoz |talk 05:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, certain general statements can be made about the natural history of metastatic breast cancer that would not necessarily constitute "original research." I agree with some of the editors here that the expression "treatable" can mean vastly different things to different people. Anything in medicine is "treatable" to improve the quality of life. Andrew73 12:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree - but that's why the article includes wikilinks to metastatic, stage IV, and breast cancer - where these issues are or should be discussed with the depth that they deserve. This article is only about John Edwards and we have no information about Elizabeth's specific treatment protocol or prognosis. The article reflects what the Edwardses said about the impact of her diagnosis on them and the campaign. Anything more, to my mind, is speculation that doesn't belong here.Tvoz |talk 18:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
To supplement Tvoz (I'm not really saying anything new), the article should talk about Elizabeth Edwards' diagnosis and what the Edwardses have to say about her diagnosis. As far as I know, no specific prognosis tailored for her has been published as of this writing. Thus, to go further here, in this article, and discuss general prognoses for people with X kind of cancer is original research if tied to Mrs. Edwards and both original research (implicitly) and irrelevant if not tied to Mrs. Edwards. · j e r s y k o talk · 18:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to belabor the point, but this CNN article really demonstrates the futility of this whole conversation. Not only does it say that no specific prognosis has been given for Mrs. Edwards, it says that doctors think it might be impossible to give her one at this point since she didn't walk into the doctor's office with Stage IV cancer but rather had treatment for cancer previously and then came back with Stage IV cancer. Anyway, I hope this puts this whole issue to bed. · j e r s y k o talk · 18:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

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