Talk:Jimmy Swaggart

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[edit] Reverts

I reverted this page to the last edit before 24.141.218.124 touched it. 24.141.218.124 has dumped extremely POV diatribes on the Wikipedia articles for several religious figures. Auric, you made a good attempt to drag it back towards NPOV, but the information simply isn't relevant and might be entirely incorrect. Brian Kendig 20:18, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The article states, "In November 1991, he was stopped for speeding. In the car with him was another prostitute. Soon after, he was told to leave the church he pastored, but he did not do so. Swaggart kept his church and began preaching again years later. In 1995, Swaggart was again pulled over this time in California with a prostitute in the car." This information screams for citations. Can anyone provide any? If not, it probably should be taken out.

[edit] Possible misquote?

The entry for [Jimmy Swaggart] currently states that he called rival televangelists Jim Bakker "a cancer of the body of Christ". However, the entry for [Jim Bakker] says that Jerry Falwell described Bakker as "the greatest scab and cancer on the face of Christianity in two thousand years of church history".

Did both televangelists say the same thing, or did each of them use a seperate quote? This entries make this unclear.

[edit] Wraggling?

Not in any English dictionary I checked.

Fixed. ZsigE 02:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup tag

This article is a bit shapeless, and the tone is not encyclopedic throughout, so I put a cleanup tag. I'm a recovering wikiholic, so I don't really have time to do it myself, and I'm not very familiar with the subject matter. --Slashme 07:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] That man sure can play the piano!

Swaggart is a consummate piano player in the manner of a more sedate Jerry Lee Lewis, his cousin, and sings with skill equal to his playing. His "How Great Thou Art" must be heard by anyone who likes that type of music. Tobyw 14:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

There should be some reference here to his musical ability/how he used it in services and albums. That was a big part of his appeal.

[edit] Criminal/fraudster?

Did the scandals ever end him up in court? There's no mention of any criminal convictions in the article, just scandals, so I'm going to remove the Fraudster and American criminals categories. Jammycakes 20:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proportion?

I had reason to look at this article to try to find out something about Swaggart's actual ministry and the basis of his appeal. There is almost nothing there. Almost the entire article is about sex scandals etc. This may be gratifying in a way, but it really seems disproportionate. Metamagician3000 01:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, he has completely rebuilt his ministry, and is now broadcasting over TV, radio, and internet. There is no mention of any of this in the article. It does not adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Malcolmst 12:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I am no fan of any public figure who decided he'd betray his wife and followers but not keeping his penis where it belongs, but this article roundly fails NPOV. All it really is is a section on controversies and criticisms; no real background, no history of accomplishments, no biography. Swaggart does have a autobiography, after all. A used copy is 25 cents. CyberAnth 00:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jimmy Lee Swaggert

Someone put in the middle name of LEE. Can someone verify this? Jerry G. Sweeton Jr. 13:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see more in there indeed about what he is doing now, what his Ministry is and what types of souls are responding to the call, in what numbers and compared to what numbers earlier. Otherwise, this looks like ad hominem criticism, lacking balance or context, so something should certainly be added. But his most lasting contribution to society may truly be his serial sex scandals in between tearful visits to pulpit, and we can't take that away from the Reverend either, IMHO. 57.67.161.196 11:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

As stated in my 25 September 2006 response to "Proportion" I do not believe this article is from an NPOV perspective. As such, I have flagged the article with an NPOV-check. I believe there is much missing information about the current state of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, and as stated by Metamagician3000 in "Proportion", the article is almost entirely about sex scandals from almost 20 years ago. Help to add relevant information to bring this back to an NPOV perspective is necessary, and would be greatly appreciated. Malcolmst 01:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Somebody should mention his failed tv comeback...

I didn't get the watch his failed comeback to televangism on TBN, but I think it's worth mentioning by someone who knows more about it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iamstillhiro1112 (talk • contribs) 01:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Wa original show aired "live"?

I noticed this paragraph about the scandal, and it made me wonder how his original program was recorded.

"The story broke on February 20, 1988, four months after Swaggart had promised to confess his sin. On February 21, 1988, on his television show taped in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Swaggart tearfully confessed that he was guilty of an unspecified sin and made comparisons to himself and King David."

It either seems like the show could have been taped live, or that Swaggart knew it was about to come crashing down.

WAVY 10 21:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup? NPOV? How about WP:BLP!

Look, I am no fan at all of any public figure who decided he'd betray his wife and followers by not keeping his penis where it belongs, but this article roundly fails not just NPOV but WP:BLP. All it really is is a section on controversies and criticisms; no real background; no history of accomplishments; no biography. Swaggart does have a autobiography, after all. A used copy is 25 cents. If you are interested in writing a good encyclopedia article on Swaggart, a living person, you might buy it and read it. I am sorry, but how can editors even so much as have the gall to write an article about a living person, not having read and incorporated his or her own autobiography into the article about the person! Swaggart has also been discussed in Christian and secular academic journals and a plethora of books that studied his "fall". And Swaggart makes or made $150-million, as was indicated in the Salary entry in his info box? Can't you tell the difference between an organization's total budget and the salary of its head? This article as it stands is purely the work of hacks, not responsible encyclopedia authors. I have removed all content not in keeping with WP policies, see edit history - I have stubbed the article per WP:BLP. DO NOT replace it until there is substantial and extended material in this article to make a well-balanced, truly encyclopedic article that fully meets each point of WP:BLP and every other WP policy. If you don't like this, there is always Uncyclopedia just down the road. CyberAnth 08:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone reverted my stubbing of this article. Please refer to WP:BLP. Some excerpts:
Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. While a strategy of eventualism may apply to other subject areas, badly written biographies of living persons should be stubbed or deleted.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material.
CyberAnth 19:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but the scale of the blanking is far moe than what would be required to acheive your stated goal, and I can only assume censorship is your goal. Artw 20:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Nothing of the sort. An article per WP:BLP is the goal. I placed mention of the scandal into the stub. I point you again to the two excerpts above. Good coverage of the scandal should most certainly be in this article. But it must be "in a manner that does not overwhelm the article". No sane evaluation would say that 90% or so of a person's biography should be related to a person's public scandals that occurred over a few years of the person's 70 total years. But that is how the article was before I subbed it. We might as well make Bill Clinton 90% or so about the Lewinski scandal. "While a strategy of eventualism may apply to other subject areas, badly written biographies of living persons should be stubbed". CyberAnth 03:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you should apply this interesting take on that policy to the Charles Manson article. Say 10 line of being a bad folk singer and freind of the beach boys to every one regarding mass murde, would that be about right? ArtW 03:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Apples and Oranges. As the Manson article notes, he "has spent most of his adult life in prison". Even given that, the Manson article is far, far more balanced than this one was before I stubbed it. Swaggart's discography has not even been covered while it is in the Manson article. And again, we are talking people who are Apples and Oranges here. Whatever anyone may think of Swaggart, he just ain't no Manson. Not even close. CyberAnth 03:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Manson is mainly known for his murders, in the same way that Swaggart is mainly known for his affairs with prostitutes, and the article should reflect that. He's spent the past twenty years in one scandal or another. If you feel that it is unfair than other aspects are not covered maybe you should change it to reflect that. I'm reverting the article. If you have a sufficient problem with some portions of the article of a real nature, such as you feel them to be untrue (or more likely, you kwish to quibble over sources), perhaps you should reblank them, but blanking the majority of the article because you'd prefer he wasn't known for his affairs is just silly Artw 05:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to give things a re-read, above. None of this has to do with my preference and it should not have to do with yours as well. It has to do with WP:BLP. You should stop trying to divine my motives, acting on what you think they are and assuming bad faith, and read the policies. As well, your statement that "He's spent the past twenty years in one scandal or another" is overstatement. He is 71, irrespective, and a BIO should be just that, a BIO, not a lopsided thing focusing almost in totality on controversies. Again, I point you to the policies. Also, I point you to his autobiography and the journal articles I mentioned. There is also considerable Spanish language materials available from during the time his organization poured multiple millions into the region to open schools and orphanages for children whose parents were killed during Cold War era conflicts. The material is there if one wishes to write a responsible biography in keeping with WP:BIO. As it stands, this article does not meet it, except in its version as a stub. Try {{Biography}} for an example of how a biography should look, replacing 1.5 Death and afterward with Downfall and afterward. If you are not willing to write a responsible bio, then leave the stub alone for another who might. CyberAnth 05:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Taking this to Incidents Artw 06:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Incident moved here CyberAnth 08:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Couple of points. One, CyberAnth, please don't comment out material that you want removed. Just remove it. Commenting it out makes it hard to work out what's going on and it's not the done thing. Two, Artw, this article was horrendously unbalanced, chockful of completely unsourced mudslinging. I'm no fan of the likes of Swaggart but he'll have fair treatment here. We need sources for everything. And not your favourite website. Proper sources. Grace Note 06:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, let's bear in mind that people who have made the news for negative reasons get a great deal written about those negative things, and not so often a lot about anything positive. This can incline us to write articles that are just long slagfests. Let's try to avoid that. Controversy, yes, because he is known for it; criticism but not mudslinging; and let's try to be objective about what is actually important. Grace Note 06:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-stubbing

I re-stubbed this article. Note the following from WP:BLP:

Editors must take particular care when writing biographies of living persons and/or including any material related to living persons. These require a degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to our content policies:
  • Verifiability
  • Neutral point of view (NPOV)

Just because you can cite material for a slagfest does not mean this gets around NPOV requirements. I point you again to the comments above on the differences between a biography and a slaagfest. Also bear in mind that the entire talk page history of this article has cited NPOV problems. NOTE: A WP:NPOV problem is a WP:BLP problem. The more extensive material on controversies can be reintroduced once a proper bio is written. CyberAnth 04:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I see no POV problems with a simple statement of events, complete with cites. Artw 04:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Which events? See WP:Undue weight. Is this a biography entitled "Jimmy Swaggart" or an article titled "Controversies of Jimmy Swaggart"? One would think the latter before I re-stubbed it. To meet BLP criteria, NPOV must be met strictly. You might give some attention to the entire talk page history here that have pointed out this article's problem in this regard:

  • "Almost the entire article is about sex scandals etc. This may be gratifying in a way, but it really seems disproportionate." Metamagician3000 01:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
  • "It does not adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV policy." Malcolmst 12:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • "The tone is not encyclopedic". Slashme 07:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
  • "In...response to 'Proportion' I do not believe this article is from an NPOV perspective... the article is almost entirely about sex scandals from almost 20 years ago." Malcolmst 01:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You getting the hint here? From four (see above), now five (me), now six (Grace Note), different users here?

I have already described how to make this a real biography. It is just above. Write one, and the more extensive material on controversies can be reintroduced once a real biography article is written. The man's been alive 71 years and has published views on hundreds of notable things.

Think of it this way: Say you were alive for 30 years. During 1/4 of those years, you flubbed up bad, but during 1/3 of your years you did very well. Should your bio cover your whole life in balance, or just your flub years? How would you feel if your bio were a slagfast for your bad years?

To quote Grace Note above, "I'm no fan of the likes of Swaggart but he'll have fair treatment here." Would you want fair treatment here, too?

Note: undue weight is a potential cause for libel. That is why articles which fail WP:NPOV fail WP:BLP.

CyberAnth 04:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:Undue weight talks about "viewpoints". As in "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."... it then goes on to talk about various viewpoints such as the view that the Earth is flat, and mentions that extreme minority viewpoint shsould no be covered. Now... what viepoint is it you feel is not represented here? The viewpoint that the various cited incidents involving Jimmy Swaggart did not occur? I'm sorry, thats a very extreme minority viewpoint indeed.
As for "undue weight is a potential cause for libel." - how on earth could that possibly apply here?
You seem to feel that the article is unbalanced because some notable aspects of Jimmy Swaggarts life have not been covered - what exactly are they? Or are we to play guessing games with you? Artw 05:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
And a further quote from WP:NPOV: We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."
Where do you see a violation of this policy? Artw 05:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I have already clearly described answers to all your questions. For further things to read that would enable a fair bio, see this. Swaggart himself has published extensive viewpoints of himself, as have others published about him. CyberAnth 05:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you could repeat the part of the conversation where you tell me which of the portions of the page you are removing are not "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."? Is the answer "none of them"? Artw 06:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Just read the arguments. It is all very clear. CyberAnth 06:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not very clear to me at all. Are any portions of the 05:53, 27 January 2007 version of the article not "pieces of information about which there is no serious dispute"? If your answer is "No" then how is WP:NPOV not met? If WP:NPOV is met then what grounds are you stubbing the article on? You've mentioned it could be better and more complete as an article -are you stubing it on those grounds? Yes or no answers without evasion would be appreciated Artw 06:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The sum total of WP:NPOV as relates to WP:BLP concerns is not satisfied by simple adherence to WP:CITE. You seem to think they are as indicated by your non-removal of <!-- Please cite any new material before adding it, as this subject is likely to be highly controversial. See WP:BLP and WP:CITE for more information. --> , which someone inserted into the article after you de-stubbed it and continued to de-stub it. CyberAnth 06:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Either it meets WP:NPOV or it doesn't - please explain how it fails WP:NPOV, given that it consists entirely of "pieces of information about which there is no serious dispute." backed by cites. Artw 06:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I have already explained it and will not re-write things, making this harder for others to come along and follow the flow. My view is summarized in my post just above this one. And in "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." Perhaps you missed the point about Swaggart having published extensive viewpoints of himself (see for starters his publications list and autobiography) - covering from his childhood to the recent present - including writing a whole book about the controversies (also this one). If you do not have a mind to do the studying required to write a responsible, fair biography of this living person, fine. Just leave it stubbed until someone else comes along who is. CyberAnth 06:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
We're talking policies here, not opinions. To be precise we're talking about the policies that you are using to justify your stubbing of the 05:53, 27 January 2007 version of the article - WP:NPOV and by extension of that WP:BLP, as well as WP:Undue weight. Your opinion that a better biograhy could be written and that Jimmy Swaggarts autobiography would be a starting point is irrelevant to those policies, unless the autobiography contradicted anything in the article. I don't have a copy, so I have no way of knowing, and I see no reason to assume that it does.
Your previous answer - saying that cites alone arn't enough to meet WP:NPOV, is misleading. It meets WP:V due to the cites, it meets WP:NPOV because it consists of "pieces of information about which there is no serious dispute". You've yet to identify anything in the article as something that anyone would dispute.
WP:Undue weight deals with viewpoints and opinions. Again, the article consists of "pieces of information about which there is no serious dispute" - not viewpoints, unless you can demonstrate anyone holds the a point of view that the facts in the article are wrong. Does Swaggart? If so where? We cannot just assume he does, we need verified sources.
So... If WP:NPOV and WP:Undue weight are met then where is the WP:BLP violation?
So let me ask, which policy are you reverting the article under? And if you are not verting it under any policy then what justification do you have? Artw 07:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, refer to everything above starting at Talk:Jimmy_Swaggart#Cleanup.3F_NPOV.3F_How_about_WP:BLP.21. The reasons are all clearly stated. Perhaps you just do not want to hear them. CyberAnth 07:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Repeatedly stating you have answered the poinst I've raised is not the same as answering them. At this point do you have anything left but evasion and repeated assertation? and again where is the NPOV violation. SHOW ME THE BODY. Or are you concedeing that there is no NPOV violation? Artw 07:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Repeatedly refusing to re-answer questions already answered is not the same as not answering them. It is not re-answering them. Are you conceding you are POV pushing? CyberAnth 07:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
WHAT POV? Artw 07:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
That your version of the article - the non-stubbed article - fully meets WP:BLP and all policies appertaining. CyberAnth 08:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Tell you what, I'll revert it, you tell me what policy it's breaking. I think we've established it isn't WP:NPOV or WP:Undue weight by the simple method of actually reading them. Artw 08:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I see. You don't actually have a reason. Very interesting. Artw 08:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The interesting thing is you appear to refuse to see the clearly given reasons. CyberAnth 08:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen them, I've read the relevant polices, and your reasons don;t match the policies. I've asked you about this and you've refused to answer. And then you've claimed that you've already answered. As I see it basically you're a liar Artw 08:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually I take that back - it's entirely posible that in the heat of the moment you've simply failed to read my comments on your interpretation of WP:NPOV and WP:Undue weight. Better to assume hotheadedness than shadyness. Howabout we make things nice and clear and you answer my simple yes or no question: Given the portions of WP:NPOV and WP:Undue weight I've quoted do you still consider them to be reasons for reverting the article? Artw 08:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, hey. Let's cool it down. Once we get to the stage of namecalling, we're not really having a productive discussion. I entirely agree with CyberAnth here. This article should not be expanded solely with material that is negative. Buy the guy's autobio, do some research, write a proper article. If you're not willing to do those things but simply want to add all the shit things you can about him, you're going to meet resistance. No one is trying to whitewash this guy. But neither is it right to make his article all about the controversies about him. Grace Note 08:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I have to ask you the same question as I asked CyberAnth - is there a WP:NPOV or a WP:Undue weight issue with the 05:53, 27 January 2007 version of the article? If so where? And if there isn't why is WP:BLP being invoked? Artw 08:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
You really need ot cool it with the reverts. What the hell was that lats one about? Other than "people other than CyberAnth have edited the article"?
Also I really would like your input on where these supposed WP:NPOV bans are occuring.
BTW, it seems that CyberAnth has recently been blocked for abusing Wikipedia policies. I would contend that what we have here is a similar abuse of policy. Artw 06:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it was deemed that I was blocked by a person abusing WP policies. CyberAnth 08:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not read the entire discussion above, but I will say that I accessed the Wikipedia article looking for biographical information on Jimmy Swaggart, and found very little information -- only extensive references to the scandals, about which I was already aware, having read the newspapers at the time they happened. I am a Catholic Christian, and as such not particularly favorable towards Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, but I would expect to see some normal biographical information balancing out the scandal references. This man had a large successful ministry for many years before the scandals occurred, and there is very little information on it. C. Mac Kirnan, 28 January 2007.

[edit] "Revelation of the Cross"

Anyone got a short explanation of what is meant by that (preferably with cite)? I'm pretty sure it isn't the Revelation of the Cross, as linked. Artw 05:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There is nothing neutral about this article (taking from article, mistakenly placed by noob)

There's nothing neutral about this page.

While doing some research I stumbled upon this Wikipedia page. I must say that Jimmy Swaggart is an amateur hypocrite compared to some of the contributors on this page. Everybody over 10 years old knows that Swaggart was a jerk more than once years ago but this page is positive proof that at this Wikipedia website, credability is a farce and falsely advertises itself for being legitimate resource material. The dullest light bulb in the pack would be able to see the lack of objectivity in this article. Does this site have an editor?

<redacted>

04:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)pappillon45

It's a pity this guy didn't put his efforts into something usuable for the article. I'll put a sentence or two in the media section noting that Swaggart has produced a number of Gospel albulms - It would be nice to get a cite for it though, and moire concrete information in general ("at least 38" doesn't really work for me). A link to a full discography would be excellent. I did a some casual Googling on this and didn't come up with much. Artw
Wow, cutting and pasting that song list, song description and all, was a bad idea. The real problem with this page isn't NPOV. From what I see there are negative things, but they seem to be written in a neutral way. And it's all in the right place. You simply can't delete things cause they don't reflect well on someone. Otherwise the hitler articles would have to leave off the haulocast thing, and the clinton article would have to leave off Monica Lewinski. Anyhow, it's hard to find usable background info on Jimmy. Even Charisma person who made the last topic didn't have anything to add to the article. I searched Jimmy Swaggarts article and he didn't bother posting background info. And a quick google search didn't give me much of anything either otherwise i would of loved to add stuff myself.--Iamstillhiro1112 23:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It's a little frustrating that every so often we get someone complaining that there's all this great stuff on Swaggart we're not using, and that the article concentrates on the scandal and very little else, but then they add nothing themselves. Weirdly the last two people to do that were an anonymous IP thats barely been used and a user who apparently signed up, made that comment and has done nothing since. Artw 23:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps they've read the record here and are contemplating legal action instead.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.114.81.208 (talk • contribs).
I hope that that is speculation and not a legal threat. JoshuaZ 01:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
More likely a troll. Artw 17:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not complaining, but I tried looking for stuff on Swaggart and didn't find anything immediately. And I guess the problem with Swaggart being a religious figure is that his page can't be filled with boasting, so it won't tell his history and stuff. I try to add to wikipedia when I can.--Iamstillhiro1112 04:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
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