Template talk:Jew list

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I'm not terribly comfortable with the name of this template. It does sound terribly like the sort of language used by anti-semites. What about Lists of Jews? Am I being over-sensitive? RachelBrown 09:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, yes. After all, I named it, and I'm pretty obviously Jewish. It was named to be "short and sweet". It does plausibly sound like something antisemites would say, but I doubt this kind of list is the sort of thing they'd have in mind when they said it. :-p Template:JewHist-stub exists, why not Template:Jew list? Tomer ^TALK 18:20, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Infobox? 2 Less intrusive 3 Purpose 4 TfD debate 5 Who is a Jew?

[edit] Infobox?

I think this template is very useful, but I think it is somewhat disruptive to the flow of the pages it is on. For example, on List of Jewish superheroes, unless a user edits the page, the reader doesn't know that it is boilerplate. Would anybody have an objection if I converted it into more of an infobox format (not changing any of the text)? --Arcadian 20:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I have made this update. --Arcadian 20:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Less intrusive

This infobox is really overpowering in some articles where I have seen it. For some short article, the disclaimer/explanation is practically as long as that article itself... that's probably an overstatement, but since the box is at the top, it seems that way. FWIW, the content itself seems fine to me.

Do editors here think there's any chance of working out something more visually discrete? Maybe a box that is just a couple lines, but that links to a full explanation similar to what is in this template? Or possibly a sidebar with all the words, but that doesn't prevent readers from starting to read the text at the top, while still noting the details of the meanings of "jewish" in the right margin? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Interesting concept. Got some visual aids?  ;-) Tomer^TALK 04:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. — Phil Welch Katefan's ridiculous poll 09:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Purpose

What is the purpose of this template? Can you provide examples of use? Sorgor 14:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

If you go back to the template page you can click on "what links here" to see a list of articles which use the template. -Willmcw 16:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

wow, so many articles! I smell antisemitism... Sorgor 17:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] TfD debate

This template survived a debate at TfD. The discussion can be found here. -Splash^talk 01:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Who is a Jew?

The template says: "For more on who is considered Jewish, see Who is a Jew?" But in the article Who is a Jew?, there are many possible definitions of Jews and it seems that even the Jews themselves are not entirely clear who they are. Moreover, some of these definitions are religious definitions, derived from halakha, therefore worthless for NPOV encyclopedia. I think that the template should be rewritten and define the Jews clearly - like other nations and/or religions - from the secular point of view (basically, Jews are people who say that they are Jews). I agree with the link to the article, but as a basis for inclusion in lists, the definition here should be crystal clear and without religious POV.--Ioannes Pragensis 09:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Although sources are certainly needed for all these lists, you've made this template ungainly and inappropriate for pages (it goes into the article itself, not the talk page, so giving instructions on it isn't appropriate). WP:BLP refers to negative unsourced material about living persons, or, at worst, any unsourced material about living persons. I can't see how it has application to the ethnicity lists beyond the need for them to be sourced. So, unless you plan to put a similar template at, say, List of Italian-Americans and so on... Anyway, at the moment, I'm reverting the template to its original version, for the reasons above. The template that should be used on unsourced lists is the "unsourced" template (i.e. see List of Italian-Americans above). As for definition or criteria for inclusion, the only one you can have is WP:V, i.e. having a reliable source that says someone is Jewish (see that mentioned or outlined at the top of Talk:List of British Jews) Mad Jack 18:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, regarding the current version, I think it should be changed to "Who can be considered Jewish" as opposed to "Who is considered Jewish", to match the Who is a Jew? page it links to Mad Jack 18:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

1) There is no corresponding template List of Italian-Americans. 2) Your example about Italian-Americans is not entirely correct, because "Jewish" means not only a nation, but also a religion. And one can change a religion quickly. So you find a two years old source stating that somebody is Jew - and in fact he is an atheist today. 3) Moreover there is no significant ideology stating that Italian-Americans are much more important than other people, and no significant ideology stating that they are much worse than other people. Both is true for Jews. therefore I think that me must pay much more attention to this lists than to other list of people by nation. 4) Given the present state of some of the lists of Jews (I checked the List of LGBT Jews recently), such information is very much needed. About 75% of the names of living persons in the first two paragraphs which I checked were unsourced. I am concerned by the situation and fear that it can sometimes lead to problems for Wikipedia and - even worse - for people on the lists.--Ioannes Pragensis 21:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

So what if that person is an atheist today? See Atheist Jew, Secular Jew, etc. Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a religion, so Jewish-American is about as valid as Italian-American. #4 is a very valid point, however, sources are definitely required. I suggest we come up with a template for the talk pages of all lists of living people out there - from Jews to atheists to teetolars - similar to the BLP template on living people talk pages. Something like "All names of living people on this list must have reliable sources that back up their placement on this list". Placing a tag in the article itself, on the other hand, is inconsistant with the other uses of BLP tags - i.e. they always go on the talk page, not the article. How about it? Mad Jack 22:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, if the person is an atheist today and has other than Jewish ethnicity, thes (s)he is definitely not Jewish, but Czech, American, whatever... Of course it is well possible to be a Jew in the ethnic sense while being atheist or buddhist. - Regarding your suggested template, I am OK with it. Greetings, --Ioannes Pragensis 22:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, Template:BLP actually reads like it would cover a list of living people pretty well - so a new template isn't required. This template as is should be placed on all talk pages of lists involving BLPS. Mad Jack 22:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)