Talk:Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation)

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The statement in the afd for True Torah Jews that "Three names keep popping up variously as "founders" of the group: Mark Elf, Tony Greenstein, and Roland Rance, basically bloggers with an anti-zionist slant. None of these three individuals appear to be religious Jews (which precludes them as representatives of Satmar), though there seems to be some possible loose association with the British Socialist Workers Party" is a complete misunderstanding.

The three, and others, are founders and activists in a secular anti-Zionist group Jews Against Zionism, which has absolutely NO connection with True Torah Jews. Further, the only connection with the SWP is that all three, and their group, are critical of the SWP for its connections with Gilad Atzmon. --RolandR 10:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. It did seem a little strange that the website jewsagainstzionism.com purported to be of a religious nature, while the little bit on the web about Jews Against Zionism seemed connected to secular founders (I'm assuming you're Roland Rance, one of the above mentioned founders). There's nothing to verify who the website belongs to, Neturei Karta has its own website at jewsnotzionists.org and some editors are claiming jewsagainstzionism.com is an official website of Satmar, but there's currently no reliable sources to verify it. It only appears to be the personal website of an anonymous person. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 06:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Jewsagainstzionism.org is the official website of the Natruna organization, which is supported by the Rabbis of Satmar, but the website is not the "official website of Satmar". It is a website made by an organization that is officially supported by Satmar, as well as other Haredi groups. Their purpose is to spread the view shared by Haredi Rabbis accross the Jewish spectrum against Zionism before the coming of the Messiah to the English speaking Jewish world. Therefore, the Rabbis of Satmar approved making a website in order to teach this view. Unlike the radical branch of Neturei Karta, they are not interested in reaching the non-Jewish world as much as the Jewish world. They say that Neturei Karta is making a mistake by focusing on alleged human rights violations of the State of Israel, because Haredi Judaism would be opposed to Zionism before the Messiah even if the State were religious and/or perfect in every way. They also say that pointing out any human rights violations to the enemies of the Jewish people is a violation of the Jewish law of Mesirah. Their only goal is to educate the world, mostly the Jewish world, of the belief based on the teachings of many prominent Rabbis that the Jewish people have to patiently wait for the Messiah and not take matters into their own hands in regard to making an independant Jewish state. They do not support the PLO or any non-Jewish organization. They also have a phone line (646) 278-1168 ext. 9. Their address is 183 Wilson St PMB 162 Brooklyn, NY 11211 - I'm sure if you write to them they will give you any information you want. Apparently, however, a Zionist hacker has brought their website down right now. Bobover1 22:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately there's nothing even verifiable about this "Natruna" organization. And even if there was, there's nothing to link it to this anonymous website. Even the address you give for Natruna is to a PMB (private mail box) so it's anonymous as well. We just don't put anonymous organizations (which can't even be verified to be real organizations) in Wikipedia. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 22:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the Yiddish Wikipedia, the Natruna organization is lead by Rabbi Yosha Katz. I'm sure if you contact him he will give you any information you need. Bobover1 22:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

There needs to be something public that can be verified. Anyone can set up a private mail box with a phone number, or an anonymously registered website, and claim it to be anything they want. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 22:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It is public knowledge in the Haredi community of Williamsburg, NY that this group exists and owns this website - ask anyone from the Satmar community of Williamsburg. Bobover1 00:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What some people assume is "public knowledge" isn't. Like I said, there needs to be something public that can be verified. Hearsay by a Wikipedian isn't verification, so merely asking some people in Williamsurg wouldn't cut it. As long as the website is anonymously registered, there's no way to verify who it belongs to. Not only that, the organization (Natruna?), if it even exists, is virtually unknown, and likely wouldn't pass any notability standard for inclusion in the encyclopedia anyway. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 00:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

it is much bigger than Neturei Karta - why do they have an article and Natruna doesnt? Bobover1 01:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Natruna apparently isn't big enough or notable enough for any sources to take note of them. Do you have any links to sources (other than themselves) that mention them? And again, there is nothing to verify that the anonymous website in question is even connected to them anyway. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 01:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note

jewsagainstzionism.org is registered to Roland Rance and is a small secular group. The registration gives a contact address in London. It redirects to Jews Against Zionism.

jewsagainstzionism.com is registered privately and anonymously via 3rd party GoDaddy.com and its ownership is therefore unknown and unverifiable.

--MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 17:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)