Talk:Jewish feminism

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Contents 1 First-Wave Jewish Feminism? 2 Introduction 3 Feminism + Liberalism + Jewish people = stereotype! 4 Does Jewish feminism really exist? 4.1 User:SlimVirgin's question 5 No halakhic support for egalitarian innovations in Orthodoxy 6 Jewish views of Feminism

[edit] First-Wave Jewish Feminism?

The current article begins with second-wave Jewish Feminism in the early 1970s. I'm not much of an historian and believe someone more expert should be involved, but something should be said about the first-wave Jewish feminism that preceeded it. --Shirahadasha 07:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Shira, all of the articles I have about this begin their discussion of it in the 70s. If you have material on the first wave that would be great.

I'm wondering about the identification of the group called "Ezrat Nashim" as Conversative. Do we know that they all were, or was this just an early feminist effort in general? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Suggest using more inclusive language in the introduction, which currently (as the citation notes) reflects Judith Plaskow's perspective. Suggest that the intro address e.g. a general interest in improving the religious status and experience of women over a broad range of theories, tactics, and orientations. For example, Orthodox feminist Tamar Ross, a leading theoretician of Orthodox feminist theory, advises against using the sort of "protest" and "oppression" language and tactics favored by folks further to the religious left. This language can come back in as appropriate when subsections on specific movements, groups, and figures are further developed. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feminism + Liberalism + Jewish people = stereotype!

I want to make it clear on a popular anti-Semitic joke of Jewish women are leaders of both liberal (socialist), communist (or "politically correct") and feminist (or lesbian) movements, possibly invented by far right and neo-fascist groups in the 1970's. As well these stereotypes are said aloud in standup comedy circles about how "Jewish women" who happen to be registered Democrats "from New York" or live in the "left coast", are over-represented in women's rights groups. I detest ethnic and religious, as well sexist and homophobic statements (the "masculine" women participate in feminist or lesbian rallies) to make Jewish women a negative pariah or scapegoat for why American women in particular are "liberated" by feminists whom the political fringe insisted on they belonged to Judaism, socialism and the Democrat party. It may be the most prejudicial claim ever made to use religious hatred, racism/ethnic bias (anti-Semitism) and homophobic sexism into one "conspiracy" group. Because a few notable Jewish women in politics: Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Gloria Steinem, Barbara Walters, Barbra Streisand and Nancy Pelosi (I don't know she's Jewish or not), are depicted in a manner to promote a kind of hatred or stereotypes against Jewish women and anything liberal or involved in women's rights causes. + 63.3.14.1 00:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello. This article is specifically on feminist viewpoints and developments within Judaism, the Jewish religion. Wikipedia seems to be lacking in an article on Jewish Feminists (or Feminist Jews) regarding Jews who were influential within the general feminist movement. Perhaps you could help address this lack. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Gloria Steinem is feminist and of Jewish descent, but not a member in the Jewish faith. In terms of ethnicity, but please do not include Steinem if her cause in feminism and women's rights wasn't related to Jewish religious principles and beliefs. Also don't try to stir hatred of any kind in here, wikipedia does not tolerate it and to link women, Jewish people by religion or ethnicity, and homosexuals is a very explosive comment. I urge you come back, apologize in case anyone was offended and delete your bogus comments. 63.3.14.129 08:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does Jewish feminism really exist?

Let's talk: Does Jewish feminism exist objectively either as part of Judaism or as part of being Jewish?

The name of this article Jewish feminism is a neologism and thus violates WP:NEO. With regards to the best title for the subject of this article I have tried to make it Jewish views of feminism (as in Jewish views of religious pluralism; Jewish views of marriage; Jewish views of astrology, see [1]) so that it not claim for itself to be a source for a "definitive" definition of this notion of "Jewish feminism" and thus violate the basic rule of WP:OR (but my move was reversed [2] by User:SlimVirgin.) And so here is a simple question: Who says that "Jewish feminism" exists in the first place as part of Judaism at all? Who are the "Jews" who say it exists? On what basis and supported by which authorities? Can feminism become "Jewish" like metaphorical gentile Swedish blonds who want to be called "Jewish Swedish blonds" simply because they find some writers who say that Swedish blonds have every right to be "Jewish" even if they are not truly Jewish? So far, the only people cited in this article are a random selection of female academics who have pontificated on the subject of feminism and its relationship to Jews (their credentials as reliable scholars of Judaism is dubious for those who know the difference between a true Jewish scholar steeped in Torah scholarship, meaning a true posek who can issue lasting rulings on these matters, and a university graduate with a PhD.) If this article is left in its present form, then how about creating a list of all the New Age things and connecting them with the word "Jewish" like Jewish liberalism and Jewish homosexuality or Jewish nudity or Jewish free love or Jewish pot smoking? and the list could go on and on... The bottom line is that a serious analysis is required of this article, it cannot stand in its present form with its present presumptious name and confused subject matter that does not do justice to either Judaism or feminism, and on the contrary, in its anxiety to please itself, it falls flat on its face revealing the shallowness of its sources, direction and significance. IZAK 11:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree. Jewish views of feminism is much more NPOV. as it stands now haredi views are treated as a side "opposition" and given little attention besides its existence. If the article was Jewish views of feminism it would be presented with equal weight as another Jewish view on the subject. Jon513 12:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

IZAK, why do you say there's no such thing as Jewish feminism? It gets 42,000 hits on Google, and appears in several book titles, such as Yentl's Revenge: The Next Wave of Jewish Feminism edited by Danya Ruttenberg; Jewish Feminism in Israel by Kalpana Misra and Melanie Rich; and Homelands of the mind: Jewish feminism and identity politics by Jenny Bourne, published in 1987. The writers aren't talking about feminism and its relationship to Jews, as you said, but about Jewish feminism specifically. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that there are legitimate Jewish views that feminism is incompatible with Judaism. The way the article is presented now these views are pushed to the side as an anomaly. Furthermore, the sources for Jewish feminism are academic scholar not halachic posekim and there is a significant orthodox viewpoint which does not view modern academic feminist writing as reflective of Judaism. Jon513 10:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Would it not be fair to characterize that viewpoint — that feminism is necessarily incompatible with Judaism — as a minority viewpoint, even a tiny-minority one? It can certainly be included in the article if properly sourced, but it's not clear to me that the viewpoint is so significant that the article should be renamed because of it. There used to be people who believed the words "women" and "suffrage" were incompatible, but that wouldn't have stopped a Wikipedia of 150 years ago from having an article called "women's suffrage." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No, the viewpoint — that feminism is necessarily incompatible with Judaism &mdash is not a minority viewpoint; It is the majority orthodox viewpoint. In general "Jewish feminism" seeks to correct Jewish Law to conform with feminist ideals. For Orthodoxly Jewish Law always trumps any secular idea. While feminist may "seek to improve the position of women in Jewish law" if that law is viewed as God-given everyone's position it exactly where it should be. In general the orthodox reaction to feminism is to explain that while women have a different role than men in Judaism, it does not mean that they are less important or not respected. Jon513 13:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Jon, with respect, this article can't be written from an Orthodox viewpoint, and bear in mind that there are Orthodox Jewish feminists. The point is that we have lots of articles on Wikipedia about issues some people say are non-existent. New antisemitism and Animal rights are two I work on a lot. Both are constantly being attacked by people who say the first doesn't exist and the second is ridiculous. We don't change the titles because of those opinions, because there is a body of literature about both subjects, just as there is about Jewish feminism, and it's that body of literature we try to reflect. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 11:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

There is documentary evidence that there is a stream of thought amongst Jewish women that is self-identified as "Jewish feminism". Just ask Shirahadasha (talk • contribs), one of our respected Wikiproject "Judaism" editors. Perhaps there should be multiple articles, one about the movement that self-identifies as such, and one about broader perspectives on the place of feminism in/with Judaism.

It is easy to mark the distinctions. There are feminist trends in Judaism which merely seek to give Jewish women a Jewish female identity. There are ample examples of relevant "traditional" role models (the Matriarchs, Miriam, Deborah, Abigail, all the way through history to Sarah Shenirer). I cannot see how any Jewish authority could disagree with this approach. There are, however, other approaches that may clash with Jewish law, tradition or cultural perceptions. These may not necessarily be endorsed my rabbis or communities, and some are in obvious disagreement with accepted interpretations of Jewish law (e.g. Jewish women singing in public - it is obvious that any attempt to legitimise this will require the reinterpretation of source all the way from the Talmud onward).

The most important thing here is to stick to reliable sources and adequate attribution. All else is vain. JFW | T@lk 13:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm JFW, being equivocal is a nice gesture, but nothing you state here so far speaks to what this article is about (in its present form.) You seem to miss the point that "Jewish feminist" don't give a hoot about the Biblical matriarchs or other such (to their way of venting) bubbe meises (also a good pun for an article about women.) If the people referred to in this article as "Jewish feminists" saw things the way you just described them, then they would probably be on the road to becoming Baalas teshuvas and/or be flocking to Bais Yaakov-type schools -- but they are not doing that and instead they continue with the mentality of their famous slogan BURN THE BRA ! but now couched in academese, books printed by nobodies to make a buck off this issue, "PhD talk" and a media that loves talking heads firmly planted in the world of Victimology that go on and on... blablabla & yackaty-yack-yack-yack ... about all their woes at the hands of men: "(as they shed crocodile tears): oh us poor little hurt girls being abused by those bad men and their archaic rabbis who hate us poor little suffering angels...sniff, sniff (and behind your back: giggle, giggle!!)" Oh, and let's not forget that a lot of this is also part of the push and thrust (good pun, but in the female sense) of legitimizing Lesbianism (and no doubt we shall soon have an article about Jewish lesbianism -- and then how will you explain things, that Judaism wants all people, even women with women to literally "[make] love [to] thy neighbor" or some such distortion of "sources" that misses what is happening here entirely?) So let's face it, while what you say may be nice words (perhaps just a placebo to make some people feel better about themslves, when Judaism really cannot help them if they persist in destroying Judaism itself), they do not reflect the raw confrontationalism, radicalism, and plain chutzpah of these frustrated females and their questionable male backers. You need to read and understand that their starting point is first and foremost the notion of SECULAR Feminism which is their only starting point and premise. Thus, as User:Jon513 correctly points out, this has nothing to do with Judaism and is no different to any other modern -isms and should be presented accordingly. Fudging and equivocating will not help, one needs to aspire to accuracy, clarity, and what the facts really are. IZAK 09:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:SlimVirgin's question

I am reposting User:SlimVirgin's above response here so that I can respond more fullyIZAK:

IZAK, why do you say there's no such thing as Jewish feminism? It gets 42,000 hits on Google, and appears in several book titles, such as Yentl's Revenge: The Next Wave of Jewish Feminism edited by Danya Ruttenberg; Jewish Feminism in Israel by Kalpana Misra and Melanie Rich; and Homelands of the mind: Jewish feminism and identity politics by Jenny Bourne, published in 1987. The writers aren't talking about feminism and its relationship to Jews, as you said, but about Jewish feminism specifically. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• Hi SlimVirgin: I seem to be having this kind of discussion more frequently lately and I think it relates to reality testing. Let's get this straight, Google and books on it do not get to decide what Judaism is or is not, and they do not get to define what is "Jewish" and what is not. Now while that statement should be self-evident, many people who surf the web, and especially Wikipedia editors lured into the alternate reality world of "WP:RULES" who forget that the "real world" and certainly the "real world of Judaism" has absolutely NO connection with what goes on on Google or what is said in any secular institution or medium and certainly nothing that is said on Wikipedia has any connection with, or bearing on, our REAL JEWISH world. Google and Wikipedia are just artificial cyberworlds, nothing more and nothing less. Taking it a step further, most often, the material one finds on Google is usually not a good way to really understand the subject itself and certainly not to become an expert in it. By way of example, would you trust even the most brilliant person who told you that he/she is a "qualified" medical doctor but has never gone to medical school, has never been in a hospital with sick patients, and has never spoken face to face with other real-life doctors but "knew it all" from the web and sources cooked up by Google? Obviously that person would not even be part of a beginners discussion, and probably would be regarded as insane, but on Wikipedia these type of arguments hold water, for better or worse. Or would one rely on the "sources" Google provided on a subject one knew little about more than by speaking with real-life people known to be qualified experts in that field? Obviously one needs to proceed with great caution or else fall into some serious traps and suffer self-inflicted (intellectual) wounds. So much for the "hits" and "quotes" from "sources" that are totally meaningless when dealing with matters of great gravity. Everyone knows that Feminism is a hot topic. And everyone knows that "Jews are news" -- always, so that if the topic of Feminism is combined with Jews one get a "winner", right? Actually wrong, what one gets is a sick radioactive bastardization of two opposites that's really "too hot to handle." Let me explain. People often make the mistake of saying that "Jews say this" or "Jews do that" but what they don't get is that what Jews do or do not say or do does NOT make anything Jewish! What makes something "Jewish" is what JUDAISM teaches and says about it. Now here is a key point: According to classical Judaism and according to Orthodox Judaism, Judaism is defined by what it says in the Torah which is viewed as literally being God-given. The non-Orthodox view, be it secular, Reform, Conservative, whatever, and sadly often even some extreme Modern Orthodox views which takes positions against classical Orthodox Judaism, is that Judaism is a "man-made" religion and innovation is not only ok, it is encouraged. So what you have is on the one hand, a school of thought that says that the Torah is Divine and PERFECT, meaning God-given and cannot EVER be changed by humans to suit themselves, and on the other hand there is a very modern school of iconoclastic thought that claims that the Torah is "man-made" and that it can be changed by human fiat and it is that which is what makes "Judaism Jewish". And there is essentially no bridging this divide. So one needs to decide which viewpoints to adopt. If it's going to be from a secular or non-Orthodox POV only then this article cannot claim for itseelf the name of "Jewish" anything simply because there is absolutely NO unanimity about what is "Jewish" about ANYTHING, feminism included. Indeed according to all of Orthodox Judaism what is key is what Judaism teaches and not what "this or that Jew" says, (and by now the people at JOFA are just ranting like the frustrated Reform rabbis did 200 years ago in Germany when they did not like much of Orthodoxy and started their innovations which led to their splitting off from normative Orthodoxy.) The classical rabbis are looked up to not because they are simply wise men, but because they are inherently capable of teaching what Judaism is or is not, and that will also mean that from that will flow definitions of what is and is not Jewish in all situations, as well as, for example, who is and is not a Jew in the first place. Classical Orthodoxy will say that just as one cannot have Jewish communism or Jewish fascism or Jewish liberalism or for that matter that one cannot claim that there can be such a creature as "Messianic Judaism" because "a thing and its opposite" is just that: a thing and its opposite. Thus according to the Orthodox perspective Judaism is a perfect religion and way of life, and just as it does not need help from Communism or Liberalism or Humanitarianism or whatever -- because it is a perfect religion and system of thought and much more that stands strongly and fiercely on its own -- so it thus does not need help from Feminism either in any way. On the other hand, those who have cast off the classical requirements of Judaism, have long ago latched on to following whatever trends are in vogue, be it becoming Socialists (as happened in Eastern Europe) or totally assimilating and becoming Westernized to the point of becoming Jews in apostasy and outright Christians as happened in Western Europe and is happening in the United States. But all this notwithstanding, to claim as you do above, that because the majority of Jews do not follow the traditional views so it's ok to be loose with terminology, or to re-adapt it to new circumstances and changing times, does not hold water because if 90% of an army deserts its positions it does not make them "right" and certainly if their views are based not on classical Judaism but on various shallow teachings derived from dubious outside sources. Unfortunately many of those same people you hold up as some sort of lead to follow also eat pork, marry gentiles, do not keep the Sabbath and Jewish holidays, and do not know or observe Jewish law at all so that if some of them want to subscribe to feminism that would make it no different to them wanting to subcribe to "Gay Judaism" or "Jewish liberationism" or "Jewish materialism" or "Jewish capitalism" etc and that again leads you into the logical fallacies and the problems of "a thing and its opposite." Bottom line, in terms of classical Judaism there can be no such "animal" as feminism, as understood by modern-day feminists, simply because it runs counter to Judaism itself and hence is not just not needed but is to be entirely rejected. I hope that I have conveyed some deeper insight/s here. Feel free to follow up... Shabbat Shalom! IZAK 11:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

IZAK, that is all very well and good for the "Classical Orthodox" perspective, which even then isn't accurate as it masks the fact that there are women who identify as Orthodox Jews and feminists, but I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the article. The simple declaration of such a identity of "Jewish" and "feminist," from a socio-cultural perspective, does make Jewish feminism a reality, and a social force that deserves treatment because of the impact on Judaism and Jewish Studies. Whether or not you think it "exists" does not change the fact that many people regard it as an operable framework within Jewish communities. Knittatron 22:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No halakhic support for egalitarian innovations in Orthodoxy

Centralized discussion at Talk:Partnership minyan#No halakhic support for egalitarian innovations in Orthodoxy. Thank you, IZAK 10:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish views of Feminism

are there any objection to JFW idea of having two articles. One for the movement of Jewish feminism and another for Jewish views of feminism. This is simmalar to how there is Noahide Laws for the laws themselves and another article for the movement itself. Jon513 16:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder whether it makes much sense to speak of "Jewish" views of feminism, given that that would cross the entire spectrum of possible views. You could discuss Judaism and feminism, perhaps, and give the views of the different denominations, though that might end up being very similar to what this article could include. But by all means give it a shot. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be a good idea to create a tentative article, possibly in userspace, so that we can have something in hand in determining whether what's involved is a different subject from this article or not. There may be some danger of creating a WP:POVFORK, with this Jewish Feminism article describing things from the point of view of advocates and the other article describing things from, or slanted towards, the point of view of opponents. This article doesn't contain much in the way of criticism of Jewish feminism. Perhaps it should -- there has been criticism of some kind or other in virtually every denomination. I'm not convinced there should be two separate articles, but I'm willing to look at a proposal with an open mind. Best, --Shirahadasha 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)