User talk:JereKrischel

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[edit] Calling programmers

We need coders for the WikiProject Disambigation fixer. We need to make a program to make faster and easier the fixing of links. We will be happy if you could check the project. You can Help! --Neo139 09:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your opinion may be needed

Hello there JereKrischel. You may want (or not want to) opine at the recent AfD nomination for the Francisco Gil-White article. Just thought I'd bring it up.--Ramdrake 02:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I may need you to weigh in again

At Talk:Race_and_intelligence, on the subject of whether or not absence of criticism of the PF in academic journals should be taken to mean anything. If you have the time and inclination, your opinion would be appreciated.--Ramdrake 01:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep up the good work

JK, we are finding ourselves on different sides of the fence on some issues regarding R&I. That's a bit of a shame since I like your contributions to this topic a lot. So let me take this opportunity to thank your for your very sensible collaboration on the article, it has improved a lot because of your good work. I hope your stay on board. Arbor 09:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC

Hi JereKirschel, can you let me know if you've already covered your points or wish to write another response? (Your response is already 1/3 longer than my comments.)--Nectar 08:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


OK good, and thanks for your good faith.--Nectar 06:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello again JereKrischel. Please take a look at the official RC that Nectarflowed created (Listed). The question he asks is this: Is there a categorical distinction between general journals and specialist journals? which I find doesn't represent the debate appropriately. I'd like to know your opinion.--Ramdrake 22:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know I took the libery to very slightly edit your clarification to the RfC question, hoping very much you don't mind too much.--Ramdrake 23:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Glad you appreciated my edit. I was worried you'd object to me changing your prose. Merci Beaucoup!--Ramdrake 01:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Race and intelligence

I award this barnstar to you in appreciation of the great work you are doing on race and intelligence, in addition to your many other fine contributions. --Jokestress 05:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I award this barnstar to you in appreciation of the great work you are doing on race and intelligence, in addition to your many other fine contributions. --Jokestress 05:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello JereKrischel. Just wanted to bring to your attention the following article: [1], a full-text article which discusses in depth several of Rushton's positions (including the one on the brain size-race correlation), and includes in appendices about ten or so comments from different scientists, including Rushton himself. I am trying to read the article in its entirety, as it establishes several point which we have been challenged to try and establish in the past months while trying to edit the article. Hope it is as useful to you as I think it will be to me. Regards,--Ramdrake 20:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Glad I could be of assistance. I think this article, along with its references can help significantly towards restoring some degree of NPOV to the R&I article on Wikipedia.--Ramdrake 22:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Hawaii

Kane, Herb Kawainui -- Ancient Hawaii link is the one that's commercial my edit is exacly what it say, another resource, and in no way commercial. Thanks

[edit] the power of the archive

You are welcome. I know Race and IQ is among the most controversial topics period, and thus the article needs to be very sophisticated and that often requires a lot of discussion. Believe me, I hate archiving recent, thoughtful discussion. I will make a perhaps pointless comment on the article talk page, but believe me, I respect the work you are putting into the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Conclusion"?

What "conclusion" regarding PF did you arrive at and/or what did you want to discuss? You shouldn't delete discussions from the discussion page. Think At Least Twice 04:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

JK, this is Zen-master. --Rikurzhen 06:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You have severely misrepresented my position, whether the Pioneer Fund is "evil" or not is an entirely separate concern from whether they fund and encourage scientific racism. Given that many sources have alleged the latter Wikipedia should report on it. Think At Least Twice 09:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for admin attention

I'm requesting some Wikipedia administrators to communicate with a user, Aeusoes1, who is causing some problems for the Hawaiian phonology article. Please look at the article's talk page, section "Edits by AEuSoes1", especially "Edit 3". If it's appropriate, in your opinion, please consider a temporary block for that user. Otherwise, perhaps you can reason with him. Thanks. Agent X 16:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What on Earth is happening?

Hello JK. Just noticed that Rikurzhen has requested (and obtained) deletion of his own userpage. Has he left WP or what? Have you heard anything? Please let me know. I just hope it's not that anon (whom I'm suspecting greatly is ZenMaster) who slapped a "db" on both the article and Rikurzhen's page. Right now, I have no clue... totally in the dark.--Ramdrake 18:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC) Thanks for the reply and for following up with him. I just hope he hasn't given up on WP.--Ramdrake 19:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

nothing untoward. i'm going to be unavailable for a while. --Rikurzhen 20:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello again JK. Now that Rikurzhen seems to have announced his intention to stop editing the R&I article for the most part (see the R&I talk page), do you still want to work on it, to give yourself a break, or have you too given up on editing this paper? Please let me know.--Ramdrake 16:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawai'i History & Hawai'i Kingdom Overthrow

Hello there, thank you for sending the note (rather than reverting seven times). Gladly, I will slow the editing down and work on one paragraph at a time. I was simply surprised and dismayed to find that most of my changes from a few months ago had been wiped out without much comment. I put a note on the talk page as well. Huangdi 02:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi JereKrischel, thanks for holding the line on the sentence we hammered out together on the 1993 controversial resolution regarding the overthrow. Noticed it's been changed a few times but you catch it and revert it back, congrats! I still think it's a good sentence and a great compromise between our two very different philosphies. Shows the pen (or keyboard) IS mightier than the sword! (By the way, had to create this new User name, that's why you may not recognize it.) Mahalo!!! Kaihoku 4 December 2006

[edit] Merci beaucoup

For your extremely appropriate intervention on the talk page of Race and Intelligence yesterday. I didn't realize until too late that Rikurzhen was getting me to stray from what I think is the important point of having both explanations (race vs latitude) side by side. Many thanks to you for succintly pointing out its vital importance in the debate.--Ramdrake 15:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI on J. Philippe Rushton

Just to let you know it seems the editor or editors which were trying to make this article into a piece of apology for Rushton seem to be back. As far as I can tell, they don't seem to be interested in discussing their changes so far, just in reverting back whoever reverts them. I'm keeping an eye on it for the moment, but I figured I'd let you know this is happening. Regards,--Ramdrake 00:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bayonet Constitution

JK, though it's softer in tone than what I wrote, your wording is OK with me -- still NPOV. Being a fairly subtle change, though, I'm curious as to what you feel is important about the distinction. Cheers. Arjuna 02:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] J. Philippe Rushton again

Hello, me again. You may want to go take a look-see at [2] where they're talking about you (and me). The anon there has some choice words for us:

2 editors named Ramdrake and JereKrischel dominate this article and have removed all encyclopedic content from this article and have used selective quotes to try to portray a qualified and objective academic as an incompetent racist. This type of libel goes against wikipedia's rules for biographies on living persons. Also, people researching Rushton do so to learn about the theories for which he is best known, not to read a list of selectively chosen quotes trashing the man. I find this article very biased, one sided, boring, and libelous. Now that the article is semi-protected against new users like me, I encourage anyone concerned with the rules of living persons articles to revert back to my version of the article. 205.211.50.10 02:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC). I figured maybe you'd want to add your opinion... Have a good day nevertheless!--Ramdrake 12:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Tried to explain as best as I could. Hope I get through to them. At least, you got them talking rather than reverting tit for tat. That's good. Thanks!--Ramdrake 22:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to bring your attention that I'm heavily suspecting Liketoread, Minorcorrections and the 205.xxx anon are all socks of the same physical person. How would we go about finding out?--Ramdrake 03:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
¸Actually, I misspoke myself: I meant users: Minorcorrections, Finalnow, Centrum99 and anons: 205.211.50.10 and 205.211.52.10. All that maybe besides the point, but looking through their contributions (especially the anons) is an education, I'll let you figure out in what... wouldn't want them to acccuse me of personal attack. Never mind. Have a good day!--Ramdrake 14:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they must be just the same person! There can't be so many ugly racists in the world! The planet would be otherwise uninhabitable! 82.100.61.114 07:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rushton article

create another article about people who criticise race as provide a brief link on the rushton book page but don't clutter Rushton's article with criticism of race in general, because that takes away room for all the criticism specific to his book. Minorcorrections 03:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Look you are edit warring with me for nothing. I'm not against there being massive detailed criticism, but keep it specific to Rushton's work, not a general criticim of race or IQ because such articles already exist and can be easily linked to. Also I don't like your version of the summary. The previous version was much better so can you please leave it as it is or discuss what your problem with it is, because to me it looks good. Also the penis criticism seems really inappropriate. Rushton looks at dozens and dozens of variables, so why a whole section just devoted to penis size, and just one specific penis size study. Much better to criticise his methods in general than blow one specific area out of proportion, especially one as trivial as penis size. If you just trust me and cooperate with me, I have sources that can add a lot more criticism to balance the article that is specifically directed at Rushton, but the criticism you're adding is too broad (criticising race in general) or too specific to warrant a section (penis size). Let's just take it slow, because an edit war is only going to stress us both out. Some of the criticism I can cite even criticises the concept of race, but does so in a way that's specific Rushton's theory. Minorcorrections 03:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the key to working together is editing slowly. I think we should both oppose anyone who tries to change too much too quickly, regardless of whether they agree with you or me. I still have a lot of problems with your version of the article but I will not revert back. I will simply make one small change a day (at the most), so you'll know exactly what I have a problem with and why, and we'll have plenty of time to slowly go over everything point by point. Minorcorrections 04:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] I think we're finally getting somewhere

If you take a look at Talk:Race and intelligence (Explanations), I think we're close to a possible solution with Rik on working in the same direction. At least, his last post seems promising. I have suggested that instead of focusing the debate on whether or not there is a genetic component to BW IQ differences, we instead focus on how much of a genetic influence there is. That way, no strawman of 0% genetic and no partly-genetic theory which turns out to be mostly-genetic. I think we can all work with that.--Ramdrake 23:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need your help at Intelligence quotient

Somebody keeps removing two valuable links (one ot general intelligence, one to "g"). If you could just drop by the page and make your voice heard as well, maybe this individual would understand he is going against consensus and stop this persistent reversion. Thanks!--Ramdrake 14:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contribution to "menehunes" deleted

I hope I'm doing this correctly being a new user to Wikipedia. If I'm not, please correct me. I made a contribution to the Menehune page which included that of a heiau (temple) on the island of Kauai, the construction of which was attributed to the menehune by local legend. Editor Zora deleted the additions with the comment that it was "woo-woo speculation" or something to that affect. Not sure if I understand all the Wikipedia jargon yet, but I assume that means it was deleted because the building of the heiau by the menehune is legend, but the menehune themselves are legend so that would stand to reason. Not quite sure why the other structures (Alekoko fishpond, Kikiaola ditch) would be listed but the Malae Heiau would be eliminated. Thank you.

First off, you should probably create your own user name, and then "sign" each comment on a talk page by putting four tildes (~) at the end (eg. "Arjuna 03:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)"). It's also better to discuss this on the talk page for the article in question. As for the substance of the edit, my two cents is that although not a subscriber of menehune-as-real-historical-being theory, within the parameter of the article which discusses them as legend, I see no harm. Arjuna 03:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaii etymology

I think I used about 10 different websites, each of which had a slightly different translation. That is why I asked for a Hawaiian language expert or fluent speaker to check it. Do we have at least one of those at English Wikipedia? Badagnani 20:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

How wonderful; I didn't know such a degree was possible. I did add references, as you had asked for them, much earlier this day. Badagnani 03:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if Agent X will respond as he seems to have stopped editing some months ago. I did leave a question at the Hawaiian language Wikipedia as well but haven't checked back to see if anyone has answered. Badagnani 05:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Paulet text

I trust you on the new Paulet text. Badagnani 05:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stub tags

Hi, I've noticed you've created a number of stub articles recently. It's more helpful if you can tag an article with a specific stub tag, such as {{party-stub}} - a full list can be found here.

[edit] Hawaii history

Good, I think multiple perspectives help make the best article for everyone. Those who are close to the subject (as you are clearly closer than I am) have a perspective may leave out "givens" that everyone there seems already to know. I'm reminded of the "Happy Days" episode in which Fonzie becomes impatient when teaching automobile repair to a novice. It isn't because he doesn't know the subject because he was an expert, but in fact the problem was that he was so good at it that he just couldn't explain it on a beginners' level. I agree that the background shouldn't be oversimplified and should be factual, and also that we should remain above the various debates over sovereignty, presenting the context and relevant issues with a dispassionate eye. I think you and the other Hawaii experts have done a good job hammering these things out in the various pages and think it's great you're improving them (with exceptions pointed out on the Hawaii talk page for removed passages that I didn't feel were adequately substituted). If the Hawaii article is too long, I agree that sections could be split off. In looking at individual U.S. state articles I see that some don't include a history section at all--all of the text is in a separate article. I don't think such an extreme solution is warranted in the Hawaii article, but probably some text could be split out into the branch articles. Thanks again for your note. Badagnani 13:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fyi - wdhamilton

FYI - in order to simply my WP time, I've decided to switch user names from User:Rikurzhen to W. D. Hamilton.

[edit] r and i

Yeah, I'm mainly editing it to test the validity of my own ideas on the subject. I was raised to believe that education, culture, nutrition, and racism explain the black-white gap, and I hold that view to this day. I want to make sure my views are authentic, and scientific, and not based on peer pressure or wishful thinking. So I'm putting it all up to a test.

One thing I haven't seen addressed in any of the R&I articles on wikipedia is the fact that intra and inter group racism in the development of IQ are an impossible variable to control for. I plan on adding studies in this regard when we finish dealing with the stuff on the talk page.--Urthogie 21:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Just another note of thanks for your efforts on this topic. I have argued for a long time (see the spring 2005 archives) that the meta-analysis done to create various graphs in the articles constitutes original research, especially because the sample sizes vary widely and the data are not all collected from one source. If someone else has published the meta-analysis, we can report on that, but editors here should not be be interpreting data and compiling it for use in original works, in this case graphs. These graphs are powerful persuaders, which is why they appeal to those who wish to have them prominently featured. Many readers will only read the intro, the images, and the captions. That's why I fought so hard on getting the intro balanced, but I never had luck with the graphs. Keep up the great work! Jokestress 20:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Race and intelligence

Well said in your introduction/disclaimer to the appendix. Thanks! --Kevin Murray 10:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


You're doing a great job helping to sort things out at this article. Thanks! futurebird 20:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] deleting other people's copmments

re: race and intelligence talk page. As a rule, you should never delete other people's comments on talk pages (or their own user page). Even if you think the comments are irrelevant, unless it is clearly vandalism it is not your right to delete what other people write on a talk page. If you think the talk page is turning into a blog, my advice is this: type this at the bottom of the discussion you feel is off-topic:

Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement only, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake.
Do not use this page as a discussion forum.
See talk page guidelines.

and then encourage contribuotrs to take the discussion to their own personal talk pages. This is the polite thing to do. If there is a LOT of blog-like discussion, then I suggest you archive it. But please do not delete what others write. I ask you to restore what you deleted. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 12:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome - I hope you will find that this is a more respectful but ver effective way of handling the problem you are (quite reasonably) concerned with, best, SR —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slrubenstein (talk • contribs) 09:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Hi there

Sorry for being absent from R&I discussion for so long, but I went through some health problems, then got sidetracked into a couple of discussions about whether cats could be owned and whether foie gras was an evil food (both with the same editor, mind you!). Hope everything is well in Hawaii. Temperature here dropped to sub-zero about ten days ago. Winter is here at last. Have a good one!--Ramdrake 22:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that slight mistake, but I was definitely under the impression you lived in Hawaii. 74 here would be an all-time heat record, although we hit 50 (Fahrenheit) the week of the New Year - and that's frighteningly hot for the Montreal area this time of year. And if you care to take my word for it, WD Hamilton is a very logical, reasonable fellow compared to one particular editor (and associated sockpuppets) I've dealt with recently. Do you know how familiar he is with the anthropological side of the story (Lieberman, Beals, and al.)? And, while this has no bearing on anything at all, my kittening season just began this week! (From a proud cat breeder). Best regards, Ramdrake 23:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hey!

I think you are doing a great job. This kind of thing makes me far too angry to keep it up for long without getting sarcastic and short. I thought all such brands of nonsense were put to rest at least five years ago, seriously. Guess the wikipedia's catching up! Wow. You have more patience than I could care to dream of. But, don't lose sight of the big picture, make sure every question that you ask receives an answer. I'll be around. futurebird 05:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] race

FYI: http://www.understandingrace.org/ Slrubenstein | Talk 17:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It has a HUGE section of history... futurebird 06:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] This weekend

JK, can you help me find the study with the data you posted. I want to work on a graph. This page just gets longer and longer-- what I think we need to do is ignore the arguments and work section by section creating a new article that makes some kind of sense. Are you with me? I'm going to set up a sub-page for this purpose. futurebird 22:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New intro page

Talk:Race and intelligence/new intro feb 07

Let me know what you think. I need this to be super sourced I'm talking like every friggin' word. I think I'm being more than fair... your feedback and or support would be most welcome. futurebird 03:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rushton

Hi. Can you please actually read the changes I made to the article before reverting it. I'm not POV pushing, I'm just trying to make the article more complete and fill in minor gaps. Saturdayseven

How can you call it original research to cite valid studies claiming the existence of genetic clusters which perfectly match the 3 main races Rushton explicitly defines in his book. How can you claim that the 2 predictions Rushton made is a trivial detail? It's the measure by which history will judge his theory and the article is incomplete without it. And the praise of Rushton is related to his work. As for the Native American thing, the whole section is unsourced, I'm just trying to give it some context. There's no cited review of the book that mentions Native Americans or the Flynn Effect so remove those entire sections if you want, but don't revert the changes I make to them. Saturdayseven

I think you are too strict in how you apply wikipedia's original research policy and such rigidity could hurt the article. Rushton asserts the existence of 3 biological groups, the first defined by East Asian ancestry, the second defined by European, Middle Eastern, and South Asian ancestry, and the third defined by sub-Saharan ancestry. Is it really original research to cite 2 independent studies confirming that these are indeed valid biological categories? Don't you think that's a relevant thing to point out?

And I do have a source confirming the 2 predictions Rushton made which I can add to the article. Saturdayseven

[edit] Race and Intelligence

Thanks for clearing up my confusion with Futurebird. I think you have a valid point, but I think it is wrong and unconstructive to say RIK is copping out. Please stop (this goes to RIK too) looking at this as a battle between two POVs and instead look at it solely' as a problem of good style. There is an argument, and there are critiques of that argument, and there is a defense of that argument. RIK instists that the first and third be provided, you insist that the second, and you are both right. The question is, with a complex argument, how best to represent this clearly without mischaracterizing any of the argument. I am not sure what the best way to go is but I urge you to address RIK and say "Look, let's pick this one argument and wort out a text that accurately and fairly represents it, without excluding anything form a verifiable source that is part of the argument, and let's just try to figure out how to write it up clearly. Do this not for the whole article but for one small part of it, and you will make progress. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You have been blocked for 24 hours

For a 3 revert rule violation on Race, Evolution and Behavior. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 08:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello again

Saw what happened on REB. Just wanted to say your honesty is as impressive as your determination. :)--Ramdrake 13:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Ramdrake! I wish mediawiki had a plugin to warn you when you've done 3-reverts, so that before I get carried away with the fourth one, I had a big STOP sign at the top of the page :). I guess what happens is that as I'm reverting, I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, I'm just reverting vandalism, since this n00b isn't listening to me...if I just revert ONE more time, I'm sure they'll start listening!" I guess I should probably follow SLR's lead - he often leaves messages for people, asking them to self-revert changes...seems like a good approach tactic I should try and emulate.
Anyway, I'll be back in the discussion on R&I after the block is over...I think if I can focus the conversation on what kind of changes would be acceptable to WRN, we can at least start moving forward a small bit at a time. I'm still guessing that the proper way to proceed is to work on organization, and then on details, but I'm willing to try either way. Something tells me that the difference between Race and intelligence and Race and intelligence (Research) is going to be critical in any final solution. --JereKrischel 18:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
From what I can perceive, he would be much more approachable starting with the details (rewriting of the material already in there to NPOVise). Although, I've seen additions by FB that are starting to address just this point. We may get somewhere if we can just all agree on what to start working on first. But eventually, we need to NPOVise, to rewrite the outline, and to rewrite the intro. Doesn't matter in which order.--Ramdrake 18:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW, you may want to take a look-see here [3]. Un homme averti en vaut deux.--Ramdrake 01:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FYI

http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/

Nice source... futurebird 22:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Thanks

Race and intelligence (Media portrayal) looks better than ever! futurebird 13:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Life history

The point was Rushton pioneered the application of life-history theory to explain variation among humans, or at least specifically among races. Are you saying those people applied life-history to explain human variation or specifically racial variation? If so, in what way? Saturdayseven

[edit] Race and intelligence (Media portrayal)

Wow! You and futurebird have done a great job making this article better. The sections are just what it needed. I'll see what I can do to expand each of these sections. Thank you!JJJamal 17:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] WD has almost agreed to change the first sentence

I want to know what you think about this, besides I don't think we'll be able to make any change unless you support it.

[4]

It is not perfect, and it may need to be changed again later, but I think it is an improvement... maybe... This process is so painful. Sometimes I just want to give up. futurebird 23:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] race and intelligence

I have semi-protected the Race and intelligence article so you can now edit it. If you do not mind, I would like to give you some advice that I believe is important if you want your improvements to the article to last, and that will protect you from unfair conflicts.

  1. Accept RIK's tremendous, if partial, knowledge. He is almost always rigorously careful about adhering to WP:V. I ask you to keep in the front of your mind the Wikipedia dictum that we are about "verifiability, not truth." It does not matter whether whether an edit by RIK is true or not. What matters is that it be verifiable and in my experience, RIK's edits always are.
  2. RIK like all editors (including you) must comply with WP:NPOV. ALL "facts," no matter how verifiable, no matter how many sources can be used to support them, reflect some point of view. The safest way to protect your own additions is to be clear about the POV (from a scholar? What field? Natural science? Social science? Humanities? Or a journalist? What credentials? Or a politician? Or a civil-rights leader? What organization do they represent). If you ever feel RIK is unclear about the POV of his edits, politely insist that he make the POV explicit.
  3. Beyond the above two points, here is my really BIG piece of advice: as long as RIK provides his sources do not delete or even bother to edit what he writes. I do not mean forever. i just mean for now. My advice is strategic, i want to suggest to you what would be a more constructive path at least for the time being, which is:
  4. my other really BIG piece of advice which is to instead focus on adding what you think the article lacks. Let RIK add his stuff. Of course it is biased. All facts are biased. And his bias will always be a part of the article. WP:NPOV however demands, that other POVs be included too. My advice is, for NOW, focus on making sure those other POVs get in.
  5. You MUST be rigorous in complying with NPOV (see above)
  6. You MUST be rigorous in complying with WP:Verifiability - always provide a credible source. Credible does not mean correct, truthful or articulate or eloquent. It means someone that even your oponents must accept as an authority on the topic - some part of the topic, and in some way. A professor of journalism or political science writing in a book published by University of Chicago Press is a good example. A stanford University psychologist publishing in a peer-reviewed journal is another.
  7. I URGE you to restrict the sources you rely on to those that explicitly address the relationship between race and intelligence. I realize you believe you have a reasonable argument for including material from sources specifically on "race" that do not explicitly address race&intelligence, and maybe your case really is reasonable. But I am trying to be practical. If you use a source that is not clearly about race and intelligence, some others can accuse you of violating WP:NOR which prohibits us from making our own generalizations or synthetic claims. So if you use such a source you are inviting a conflict. No, it does not matter who is at fault or who is right. What matters is making edits that are unassailable and will not be deleted or, if someone deletes them, you can with confidence revert the deletion. This will ensure your edits stick. I am advising that this - making edits that stick - be your priority.
  8. My final and really really really important BIG piece of advice: If you add content that is accurate and relevant, from a verifiable source, that in no way comes close to even kinda sorta violating NOR (because you are not making ANY synthetic or general claims, only citing a verifiable source that does and that is directly about race and intelligence), and you are painstakingly careful to comply with NPOV, and if another editor deletes what you added, then make a record of that editor's deletion immediately. Also, document any violation of the three-revert rule (and be sure you never violate it ever ever). And document any personal attacks. Just keep a record, keep it to yourself.
  9. If after two weeks you can document a pattern in which your fully NPOV/NOR/V compliant edits are consistently deleted (whereas you have not been deleting that person's stuff), and someone else has violated 3RR (and you have not), and someone else is guilty of personal attacks (and you are not) ... you then would have a very strong case to take to ArbCom. Very strong. Use the record you have been keeping.

I apologize if any of this sounds patronizing. And if you question my motives all I can say is I really am trying to be practical and strategic. I think if you do not follow this advice no sustainable progress will be made in the article. If you do follow this advice, I think the article really will get better, even if at a slower rate than you'd like. I am sharing this with JK; please share this advice with anyone else you closely collaborate with. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Outside efforts

Jere, I've been emailing everyone I know in academia about this article. I'm trying to get some experts in here. This is the email I sent out-- do you know any people?

I have noticed a disturbing trend on the wikipedia. Articles on the topic "race and Intelligence" contain lopsided information and occasionally racist information mostly from researchers such as Arthur Jensen, Charles Murray and Richard Lynn (Richard Lynn wrote a book called "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" that tries to prove that people are poor in places around the world because they are genetically inferior...)

All of the work looks, on first glance, to be very scholarly, there are numerous citations and lots of flashy graphs, but fundamentally, the historical context is missing and the cultural context is missing. Because of this the information is highly misleading.

I have undertaken a project of revising these articles (I've rewritten portions of these articles, using the work of Gardner, Gould, Etienne Wenger, Robert Serpell as my sources) but I am in over my head. I'm really just a high school math teacher. I'm not an expert on intelligence. I need the help of smart dedicated editors who can help bring some balance to these articles.

I see the impact allegations of inferiority can have on young people in the classroom all of the time. I felt it growing up as a minority student during The Bell Curve controversy. I think that improving these articles is important work, and I hope you can help me find the right people to work with me on this project. Here is a link to the main article. I encourage you to take a look at it and forward this email to anyone you know who can help.

-Susan Murray

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

In addition to this I'm working on improving the bio-pages for researchers who aren't on the Pioneer Fun Roll. I think it makes it seem like all the work in on this topic has come from Rushton and Jenson or something, when in fact they are just minor players.

Here's my to-do list in that area:

Bios

[edit] Things are going great

Since the page has been unlocked. I like you new outline feel free to ax Race and intelligence (test data) this if it gets in the way. futurebird 06:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] This is a cool source futurebird emailed to me

[5] you should check it out. FB, is way to nice about this stuff IMHO. She knows I think that and I don't care if she reads this. You take a hard line and someone has got to do that, you know? JJJamal 02:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Jamal, get your but over here --> Race and intelligence (Research)‎ and help with this intro. NOW. (how's that for 'soft' :P) futurebird 04:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can you help me with the intro I just wrote?

Race and intelligence (Research)‎

It's a mess, but it's also a start. futurebird 04:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

JK, based on this please submit a request for formal mediation if you're up to it. List you me and the others as appropriate. I suggest that organization is the central issue to be resolved and whatever flows from that. I ask you because I'm ill. --W.R.N. 01:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] request

JK, based on this please submit a request for formal mediation if you're up to it. List you me and the others as appropriate. I suggest that organization is the central issue to be resolved and whatever flows from that. I ask you because I'm ill. --W.R.N. 01:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Two Curve Bell.jpg

Please weigh in on this IfD [6] futurebird 05:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] race and intelligence (explanations)

My goof. You should be edited now. As to your conflicts with WRN, I am not going to get involved. I urge you to follow my 9 pieces of advice (above). Be sure to comply with all policies and rules yourself, to protect yourself. And you keep your own careful record of anything WRN does that you think reflects bad faith, or ownership of the article, or violates 3RR, or violates any of our core policies, or is uncivil to you ... and when you feel too frustrated to go on insist on formal mediation following the appropriate links to the proper page to make such a request, or file an ArbCom case if you feel it is justified. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rfm

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Race and intelligence, and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.

according to the rfm rules, you're not supposed to change the "Issues to be mediated" that I wrote. if you want to add you own issues, they're supposed to be listed under "Additional issues to be mediated". see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Guide to filing a Request for Mediation: Do not, under any circumstances, edit the "Issues to mediate" section unless you are the party who filed the request. --W.R.N. 22:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

i appreciate the offer, but right now I'm trying to minimize the amount of time that WP takes in my day. i'll try to rate-limit myself in the future, and i'll register this account with a "E-mail this user" if you want to send me anything privately. --W.R.N. 22:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, we may be able to minimize the amount of time WP takes up for both of us if we have a communication channel that's more effective than edit...refresh...refresh...refresh...edit...refresh... Feel free to make a throwaway yahoo IM account called WRN or something and contact me if you are worried about privacy and anonymity. --JereKrischel 22:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What do you think about this?

[7]

futurebird 01:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Kevin and WD reverted everything

It's back the way it was when the page was locked. I just don't understand how they can do this? The article was finally starting to improve. All of the work has been lost. Now they page is "locked for mediation" or something. This isn't fair. futurebird 04:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Race and intelligence.
For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk)
This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to open new mediation cases. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.
This message delivered: 06:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC).


Hey, you need to watchlist this page. There is no guarantee someone will actuall step up and mediate, so you need to watch that page to see if someone does. For more information, read this. Good luck, Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] your email

Check it :P futurebird 22:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] about to archive

JK, before I archive it, will you make sure there is nothing here or in the following section - chock full of citations - that you want to put in one of the pages you are working on, but have not yet? best, Slrubenstein | Talk 17:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1887 Constitution of the Kingdom of Hawai'i -- POV Push

JK, you're by far one of the most controversial contributors to Wikipedia, and you have an obvious bias against the Hawaiian monarchy. This was evident when I last dealt with you last year over the section in Hawai'i about the Overthrow. Fine, you believe that the Overthrow was justified and legal, but unfortunately everything you write is subtly but painfully POV. I don't know if it's intentional or if you believe so strongly in your view that you just don't realize it. Then you tell me that I have a POV push? Hardly, I simply want you to include a more balanced view, if not a completely NPOV or nuetral article. While reading your work, I've been shaking my head in disbelief so much that it gives me a headache.

This is hardly an exhaustive list, but to start:

RE: The Queen's poll, you say she "claimed" she had support. "Claimed" implies she was less than truthful. We have no real way to know if she was truthful or not. "Concluded" is far less inflammatory.

RE: The Queen's "overthrow". Nope, more correctly it was an attempt to RESTORE her power.

RE: Minister Stevens, you're implying that his actions had the support of the United States government, when many believe he overstepped his limits, including Grover Cleveland. Therefore, "The United States Government, through its..." should be left out.

RE: Political unrest. Many believe that Stevens used the situation to his advantage, so my change to "what he saw as" pol unrest is far more nuetral than stating he "reacted" to the pol unrest.

RE: Landing of the Marines. The addition of "obstensibly" to this sentence allows for different opinions on whether the action was valid or not.

RE: Grover Cleveland's message to Congress. This is an essential part of the story and further illustrates the difference of opinions.

RE: The Provisional Government "quickly" gaining recognition. This is a matter of opinion and also has a subtle POV push. "Eventually" is far more nuetral and in my opinion, far more truthful given the intrigue surrounding the overthrow.

You still have MANY pro-Republic POV sentences in this article that convey your POV. If you need examples of these, I'll be glad to list them tomorrow. For now, I need to get to bed.

Kaihoku 11:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


JK, I appreciate the changes that you have initiated. Most of them I think are appropriate. Some need a little work...

I also appreciate the refresher on some historical details I had forgotten.

BUT FIRST, it occurs to me that we need to examine why this section and the following section are even IN this article. This is about the 1887 Constitution, not the 1893. There's already an article on the 1893 Const. not to mention the article covering the Overthrow. This doesn't belong here.

MAYBE we keep a modified version the first paragraph, with a link the 1893 Const. and Overthrow articles? I PROPOSE WE DO THIS!

BUT IF WE DO DECIDE TO KEEP IT...

Why did you add the phrase about "eliminating suffrage from American and European residents"? I've read the 1893 Constitution, and Article 62 states the qualifications for voting. There's nothing in there that would specifically eliminate suffrage as you contend.

Also, upon further review I find the phrase "threatened to impose" a bit strong and definitely POV. I've changed it to "proclaimed that she would promulgate".

Right before the sentence about the Queen's poll, I've also added "The queen had been presented with petitions for a new constitution, signed by an estimated two-thirds of the kingdom's voters." I feel that this historical note shows the diverse opinions at the time regarding the 1887 Const.

Moving over to the Morgan Report, your section on "Contradicted by the A.R. " falls under the Controversy headline. Should there not be both sides of the controversy represented? It's not a rebuttal, it simply states the opposite view. How can you expect to throw up your POV without the opposing POV represented?

More tomorrow. Mahalo for your laulima...

Kaihoku 10:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Was hoping to see your reasons for the recent changes under the Talk page, but there was nothing? I still think it shoud be deleted altogether... Kaihoku 11:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] mediation

fyi - i think you put your comment under the wrong heading. --W.R.N. 18:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No, its under the correct heading for what was posted. JereKrischel is the only editor to have added a position to What should the organization of the main article be? and Kevin Murray , Furutrebird and yourself (WRN) have added your positions to What should the organization structure/relationships of the many articles be?. We will need something from all editors in both of those sections before mediation is over. I failed to update the beginning comment, that What should the organization structure/relationships of the many articles be? was also open for discussion - my opening comments only mention What should the organization of the main article be?. This was my error, and I apologise. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Race and intelligence (explanations)‎

I really need some help with this article. I've added a ton of evidence against the genetic explanation, but now WRN is trying to frame the whole thing in terms of "well you never know it might be genetics!" --It's the idea that no matter what you do, I mean, even if there was no test score gap, until you have proven there is NO genetic link you ought to assume that there is one. He's invoking Occam's razor and I think that's ABSURD. Occam's razor says choose the obvious cause: RACISM. duh duh duh. I've just about had it with this article. How many years will it be before people simply realise that (a) Jensen is a nut (b) we ought to have been spending all this time and research money trying to help people live better lives rather than trying to prove that people are inferior because of some 19th century vendetta in some circles of the academic community against Africa.

I'm just really angry and sick of going in circles. I need some help. I don't want to just give up and watch as all of my hard work is slowly obliterated. futurebird 05:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

FB, you need to remember the difference between what editors think and what published sources report. Jensen's argument is that Factor X is a violation of Occam's razor. As it turns out, Flynn agrees with him, and offers a model that avoids a Factor X. --W.R.N. 05:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
You changed it while I was writing my angry note. It's not as bad as before but it's too heavy on jargon that's too much for the intro.
  • social multiplier
  • g factor
  • Factor X (Can we just call this "racism"? Of course there are "there are environmental factors that have effects between groups but not within groups" I see them in action every single day. I need to go read Flynn and see what he had to say about this...) futurebird 05:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
You probably want to take that question to the article talk page. Factor X has to not differ within groups. It has to affect the most affluent and the least affluent relatively equally. Flynn rejects "racism" as a non-explanation because it's a Factor X (see the 2006 Flynn and Murray debate). --W.R.N. 07:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hawaii

  • Just wanted to drop a note of thanks for helping to clean up List of famous people from Hawaii. It's an easy target for self-promotion and vanity, and I haven't had a chance to clean it up as often as I would like, so thank you. --Santaduck 23:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaii article revisions

Hi JK, I only had time to look at a couple of your response edits so far. Many I still find problematic, but in regards to "race", "ethnicity", and your suggestion of "ancestry": better, more accurate -- kudos. I'm heading into a huge round of external stuff, and won't be likely to do anything in the next few weeks, so unless someone else comes in, your edits are likely to stick until I am back in action and we have a chance to find compromises. In the meantime, aloha... Arjuna 20:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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