Talk:Jerusalem

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Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3

Contents 1 History of Jerusalem 2 Capital of Israel 2.1 Largest and most populous city in Israel 3 NPOV: Who's trying to deislamize and dearabize Jerusalem by usinmg the sand box? 3.1 Sources (January 2007) 3.2 Capital, "largest city" out of intro 3.3 A new proposal 4 Infobox 5 Born in Jerusalem 6 Galleries Galore 7 Arabic name 8 To-do list 9 Perhaps someone who could provide a truly neutral point of view would edit this artical? 10 RfC 11 Origin of the name 12 Orginal Seal 13 Deleting a site for art, music and culture in Jerusalem?! 14 Please don't remove any references

[edit] History of Jerusalem

Šachar 'Dawn' and Šalim 'Sunset/Dusk' in Canaanite (Ugaritic) religion they were twin Gods, the first, if not only, pair of gracious gods of peace, the children and cleavers of the sea. They were born of El and Athirat or her female companion. The new family builds a sanctuary in the desert and lives there for eight years. According to Isaiah 14:12, Šachar was the father of Helel or Lucifer, the 'light-bringer', usually taken to mean the morning-star.

Given that during the "Canaanite period, Jerusalem had the name Urušalim, meaning 'the city of peace'" could not his equally have meant "City of Shalim, i.e. the Sunset", and be the site referred to where the sanctuary to peace (The temple of Solomon) was built? Especially since (Hebrew: שְׁלֹמֹה, (Shelomo) Standard Šəlomo Tiberian Šəlōmōh; Arabic: سليمان, Sulayman; all essentially meaning "peace"), and according to Israel Finkelstein's archaeological research, the Solomonic Empire as it was supposed to exist cannot be found. The name Shalim is also found in the names of Assyrian monarchs such as Shalmaneser (Shulmanu-asharidu). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John D. Croft (talk • contribs) 00:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Capital of Israel

Since Jerusalem is not considered part of, or capital of Israel, except by USA and Israel itself, the first paragraph is misleading. I have tried to include this fact in the text several times, but it was deleted. Obviously this article cannot be considered to be written from a NPOV. --Gerash77 22:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, looking at famous Encyclopedia articles on this city, and compare it to the wiki one, makes this POV more clear:

BRITANNICA © :

Jerusalem Hebrew Jerushalayim, Arabic Bayt al-Muqaddas or Al-Quds ancient city of the Middle East that since 1967 has been wholly in the possession of Israel. In 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel. Jerusalem plays a central role in the spiritual and emotional perspective of the three major monotheistic religions. For Jews throughout the world, it is the focus of age-old yearnings, a living proof ofancient grandeur and independence and a centre of national renaissance;for Christians, it is the scene of their Saviour's agony and triumph; for Muslims, it is the goal of the Prophet Muhammad's mystic night journey and the site of one ofIslam's most sacred shrines. For all three faiths it is a centre of pilgrimage—the Holy City, the earthly prototype of the heavenly Jerusalem.

ENCARTA © :

Jerusalem (Hebrew Yerushalayim; Arabic Al Quds), city lying at the intersection of Israel and the West Bank, located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, about 50 km (about 30 mi) southeast of the Israeli city of Tel Aviv-Yafo. Jerusalem is composed of two distinct sections: West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem, which is inhabited almost entirely by Jews, has been part of Israel since Israel was established in 1948. East Jerusalem, which has a large Palestinian Arab population and recently constructed Jewish areas, was held by Jordan between 1949 and the Six-Day War of 1967. During the war, East Jerusalem was captured by Israel, which has administered it since. Israel claims that Jerusalem is its capital, but Palestinians dispute the claim and the United Nations has not recognized it as such. Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider Jerusalem a holy city, and it contains sites sacred to all three religions.

--Gerash77 22:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

We've had this discussion too many times, and it always amounts to this:

1. Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel, by law.
2. Jerusalem serves as capital for the citizens of Israel, holding the parliament, government offices, supreme court, official quarters of the PM and president, etc.

These facts make it capital, and the status of a city as capital has nothing to do with international recognition. okedem 07:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, the tag doesn't belong in the top because of one issue like explained in my revert reason. Cheers. Amoruso 09:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless 2, the Britannica reference is a pretty bad one for your argument because it says : "in 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel" and doesn't say it's disputed, so I'm not sure what you were getting at. It even says that whole Jerusalem is in possession of Israel (!) if you don't know, possession implies legality in law, it doesn't say occupation. I think this wikipedia article is much more WP:NPOV or WP:POV AGAINST Israel as you can see in the section Jerusalem#Jerusalem as the capital of Israel which is basically an attack on Israel so I'm not sure what bothered you in terms of POV actually. Amoruso 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Possession implies legality in law... Which law are you talking about? FrancescoMazzucotelli 15:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The argument about how to handle the "capital" issue is one of longest running in all of Wikipedia and it got real boring round about 3 years ago. Anyway, I just want to point out that the Britannica wording shows that they have the same problem and chose their words real carefully to avoid saying either that Jerusalem is sovereign Israel or not, or whether it is the capital or not. Btw, it is true that I possess the things I own, but the word "possession" certainly does not imply ownership. See possession of stolen goods. --Zero^talk 11:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's be clear here: the sovereignty of Jerusalem is what's disputed, not Israel's right to establish a capital on its sovereign soil. The legal status of Jerusalem is very complex, but I think the correct way to think of it is that Israel has established its capital in Jerusalem, but the international community does not universally accept Israel's sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem in which governmental offices are established. If the international community disputes Israel's right to determine where its capital should be, we are dealing with discrimination that is probably without parallel in human history. --Leifern 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"...sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem in which governmental offices are established" - The governmental offices, the parliament, the supreme court, etc., are all located in West Jerusalem, which has been under Israel control since 1948/9. That part of Jerusalem is just as Israeli as any other part of the country, in its 1967 borders. So there's no point in arguing over "parts of Jerusalem". okedem 20:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, okedem, you actually edit-conflicted me out from asking that question, because what you say is what I have understood from past discussions. The structures that make Jerusalem the capital have always been in Israel. As I also understand, it is the Israeli declaration that the "complete and undivided Jerusalem" is its capital that the UN and most nations cited in their various protests. So unless one believes that all of Jerusalem was "stolen" by Israel, there is no allegation that Israel's capital is on stolen land. The protest is against Israel's occupation and later annexation of eastern Jerusalem, having nothing to do with where the capital is actually located. It is all symbolic and meaningless. 6SJ7 21:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Leifern is correct in that the issue is sovereignty. The dispute about the capital would immediately vanish if Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem was confirmed by the international community. The counter-argument about West versus East Jerusalem doesn't work for several reasons. A legal reason is that the UN has never accepted Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem (the SC resolutions denouncing the annexation of West Jerusalem were never repealed). That's why no nations agreed to treat Jerusalem as the capital from 1948 to 1967. A more important reason today is that Israel is adamant that the whole of Jerusalem is the capital. This means that other nations cannot accept the Israeli declaration without in effect acceding to the annexation of East Jerusalem. That's why they don't accept it. If Israel announced tomorrow that only West Jerusalem was the capital, probably lots of nations would accept it. That won't happen though. --Zero^talk 09:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The international recognition is irrelevant. Jerusalem is Israel's capital, whether other nations accept it or not. That's just the fact of the matter. The sovereignty issue is dealt with in the lead itself, and that's why the "neutrality" tag should be removed.

The UN's issue with west Jerusalem stems from the partition plan of 1947, which called for the internationalization of Jerusalem. Unfortunately, that plan was rejected by the Arab leadership, and so was not implemented. Other parts of the country, like some of the Galilee, were supposed to be a part of the Arab state, however, those are internationally recognized as legally as part of Israel. The partition plan is now long defunct, and so is the internationalization idea.

And as a city, it's the largest in Israel - it has the most residents, and is under complete Israeli control. okedem 18:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest quite NPOV change in the lead: "... is de facto capital of ...". --Magabund 22:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I see it now. Thats exactly what it is, all these goyims attacking Israel on their biased media.--Gerash77 04:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Goyims"? You didn't even bother to learn some Hebrew grammar before using a Jewish language to attack the Jews. Beit Or 08:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Largest and most populous city in Israel

Even if we accept the claim over "capital of Israel", the article claims it is the "largest city of Israel", with the population including the occupied territories. Unless there is a consensus on this, the sentence will remain disputed, and any removal of the tag is vandalism and will be reverted.--Gerash77 22:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"And as a city, it's the largest in Israel - it has the most residents, and is under complete Israeli control. " - Okedem

No, the fact that it is occupied by Israel, doesn't make it the largest city in Israel. Israel also occupies many cities in the west bank, but that doesn't mean they are cities of Israel. You are trying so hard to show that your statement is neutral, but it is not logical anyway you look at it.--Gerash77 19:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The cities is the west bank aren't under Israeli law, aren't filled with Israeli citizens, and aren't governed by Israeli municipal authorities. I know Jerusalem has a special status, but it's still an Israeli city, even if you (or anyone else) thinks it shouldn't be. okedem 20:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Since, "me and anyone else" including United Nations say otherwise, it is obviously not an statement without dispute. Hence the tag should remain. I understand this is an emotional issue for Jews, which is why I think its better to keep the sentence, and not to go for an edit war. Nevertheless, the least we could say is that it is a disputed statement, (if not totally false).--Gerash77 20:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The status of Jerusalem is dealt with in the lead. The tag needs to go. okedem 21:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

One more time: The tagged sentence is not neutral.--Gerash77 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll make it clearer - the "neutrality" tag is a terrible thing to use - it adds no data for the reader, only confuses him:

a. The first part of the sentence states that its Israel's capital. There's no neutrality issue here, it is the capital.

b. The second part says it's the largest. If you think that's not neutral, suggest ways to fix it. Don't use the tag, it doesn't help anyone!

Anyway, sometimes we have to use statements that may seem less than ideal. That's reality. That's also why we can address these issues in another sentence, as the lead does, which solves the NPOV issue. okedem 21:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You could write "Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and its proclaimed capital. It is cosidered the largest city in Israel, though Israel's sovereignty over the city is disputed." This is a pretty accurate description of the current situation in the city. It is worth while to point out that En-Wikipedia uses terms like "Republic of China" rather than "Chinese Taipei" and "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" rather than "Turkish occupation in northern Cyprus", so apparently we do value self-proclamation more than we value international resolutions. drork 22:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point drork, but the problem is not only in lead. There is quite scarce information about Jerusalem's international status in article. For example "...during which time West Jerusalem was part of Israel and East Jerusalem was part of Jordan" would sound more NPOV when construed like "...during which time West Jerusalem was under the control of Israel and East Jerusalem under Jordanian control". --Magabund 22:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact the Jerusalem is the seat of government of the state of Israel is not disputed; nor is that fact that it is the proclaimed capital. Only the legitmacy of its sovereignty is disputed. As other have pointed out, why can't we just use language that indiciates such? "The proclaimed capital and seat of government is in Jerusalem; however, Israel's sovereignty over Eastern Jerusalem is not internationally recognized." Anything along those lines should resolve most of the problem, though the exact language will need tweaking.Zalotiye 23:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC) And for Gerash77, goyim is already plural. The singular is goy; goyim is plural.

Long ago it was decided not to include the sovereignty issue of Jerusalem into the first paragraph. In fact, now that I've rechecked the history of the article, it seems the capital/largest city issue was unilaterally added to the article by User:Amoruso in early September.

Before:

Jerusalem ([[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Greek: Ιεροσόλυμα, Ierosólyma or Ιερουσαλήμ, Ierousalēm; Latin: Hierosolyma; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds; official Arabic in Israel: أورشليم القدس, Urshalim-Al-Quds) is an ancient Middle Eastern city on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea at an elevation of 650-840 metres (about 2000-2500 feet). Jerusalem is Israel's official capital, although Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem is not widely recognised by the international community (see Positions on Jerusalem).

After his/her edits, the second sentence in the paragraph became grammatically incorrect, which to this date remains so! Hence, I think a reversion of the first paragraph will solve the issue. --Gerash77 01:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was better worded and more neutral before. Let's put it back. --Zero^talk 02:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What does unilaterly added mean  ? the changes were largely accepted by many users at the time Amoruso 07:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You have managed to do it again. Wait for a consensus before going to an edit war. If you read your edits for late August and early September, you will see that you only succeeded to add the changes after persistent edit war. Even now that you have managed to keep the statement there, you can't accept that there is a dispute regarding to the statement. I will keep an eye on the article from now on, please stop your vandalism.--Gerash77 23:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't accuse others of bad faith or vandalism when it's essentially the only thing you've contributed to this article. If you wanted to maintain some credibility, you would atleast have contributed to the article in a positive way like I and the other users have done instead of rv'ing and generic tags for your POV purposes. You obviously have no knowledge or interest of Jerusalem and your only motive seems to be to remove any mention of "capital" in Jerusalem article. That's disruptive behaviour and you should leave the article to those people knowledgable or interested about Jerusalem. This article is not a place to politically war edit like you've done. You'd notice that in contrast to you I also made considerable actual non political edits to this article and therefore it's you who is suspiciouslly acting of bad faith. Please refer to articles in your actual interest and expertise. Amoruso 09:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV: Who's trying to deislamize and dearabize Jerusalem by usinmg the sand box?

Robin Hood 1212 13:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about that user's edits, but that's exactly what I thought when reading the current intro. I am neither Arab nor Muslim, by the way, and I have a lot of sympathy for Israel, compared with for my own country (the US). However, regardless of that, this introduction is ridiculously poor. Not only is it offensively biased in one direction (and I'm not just talking about the capital dispute that is swept under the rug, but the wording of the whole intro). Aside from POV concerns, it has ridiculous facts (if the Old City of Jerusalem's claim to fame is Good Morning America stating it's a wonder of the world, then maybe this really shouldn't be mentioned at all. just silly), lots of over-specific information about land areas, and the citations are even MORE ridiculous- about 10 citations for the claim that Israel has the largest population in Israel. THIS IS NOT WHAT IS DISPUTED. Besides, all the citations basically say the same exact thing, and the ones from fringe news sources such as The Washington Times could certainly be removed in favor of the more credible sources, if a neutrality dispute was the reason for all those citations.

But anyway, whether Israel controls Jerusalem is not disputed. Whether Jerusalem is Israel's own official capital in all senses is not disputed. What is disputed is whether Israel has a right to ALL of Jerusalem as its "eternal capital", because that is the all or nothing choice they have given the international community. I am not trying to argue that Israel does not have this right, but the point is, in this case the vast majority of the world weighs it against the apparent right of others that Israel's right appears to be infringing upon and sides against Israel's determination that Jerusalem is its capital in the sense that Israel means (i.e. ALL of Jerusalem, NOT NEGOTIABLE).

It becomes problematic if a Wikipedia article exists to further the ideological agenda of a particular government or people, even though in many cases, and apparently here, it is naturally those exact people at the center of the issue who are most enthusiastic about contributing to the article and determining its slant. Now, the rest of the article appears great. But when it comes time to summarize it up at the top, the summary only reflects facts that paint the situation in a way favorable to one side, with meager token inclusions for "objectivity", and certain key facts being left out in favor of nebulous assertions and lots of utter trivia. Other even more key general facts about Jerusalem's various religious heritages and status as a holy city are also poorly expressed or shortchanged, out of incompetent editing rather than POV, I assume, while at the same time overly specific information about styles of Jewish and Muslim prayers somehow qualified for inclusion in the intro.

The point is, leaving a claim that Israel is Jerusalem's eternal capital unchallenged until the very end of the intro, is only the beginning. The intro is about as blatantly awful as anything I have seen in such a major wiki article- just compare this to the painstakingly worded God or Jesus or September 11 or whatever huge and contentious article may be out there. I expected this would be one of those, that I wouldn't even think of touching, and I was shocked that I obviously knew more about the subject than some of the people who have been editing this, even though I wouldn't claim to know very much. Oh yes, I did try to change it, but apparently it became too objective (or too long) for some people. But I looked in the history though a bit, and I saw that any changes to the pro-Israel bias in the intro seem to get magically reverted over time, as it seesaws back from accuracy to its natural biased state.

This is simply a POV intro would be immediately laughed off the page if it were submitted to a "proper" encyclopedia (from the US or anywhere, certainly even in Israel). I guess this is one case where the article (intro) will never be able to meet standards due to the emotional feelings involved and people's (mostly pro-Israel in this case it appears) inability to see things outside their own little framework. That is sad, but I suppose it pales in comparison with the sadness of the real life situations that would inspire such an inability to be objective.

It's still very surprising there isn't more dispute over this current intro (basically none for months, it seems) but I guess all the Arabs or Muslims, or Europeans, or basically anyone who isn't either a hardcore settler or an American ignorant of the whole conflict and just sticking up for their little friends who do their dirty work... I guess they must have given up when they realized the pro-Israeli contributors are greater in number on English Wikipedia and will determine the bias of this article. Good job with your little club and consensus, guys. 172.144.0.252 03:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to comment about everything, but just this one thing - obviously, you haven't been working on Israel related articles for very long, otherwise you'd know - everything is in dispute. The population, for instance, is also problematic - something like half of the populous live in East Jerusalem - so can we include them in Israel's figures?

However, if there are several good sources, we can remove fringe ones. Anyway, please discuss changes before making them, otherwise things can get pretty heated around here... okedem 04:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me respond to some of these things.

• First, about the capital; it's potentially problematic for the first sentence of an article. I feel a better wording would be Israel's seat of government as that is certainly undisputed. For someone who does not know the whole story, saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel without qualification in the first sentence is confusing. I understand what it means and I'd even be inclined to say it's correct, but it's nevertheless confusing.
• Yes, there are clearly some trivial facts in the intro. The Good Morning America item is one; the number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in certain books is another. Feel free to remove them now, but I'm personally going to work on the rest of the article first before tackling the creation of a spectacular intro. If an intro is supposed to sum up an article, I feel the article should be written first.
• I have no idea why the size of Jerusalem needs so many references either.

Still, I would request that you not attack writers of the article. You raised some very good points in your comment, but there is no need to fling insults at those doing their best to improve it. Those insults – particularly in the last 2.5 paragraphs – doesn't help you one bit. -- tariqabjotu 04:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, on the capital thing. Find me a definition for capital according to which Jerusalem isn't Israel's capital. I truly tire of this. It's the capital. It doesn't need international recognition, nor does the location of embassies mean anything.

The dispute should be mentioned, certainly, but for all intents and purposes, it is the capital.

Please don't remove references. At most - place them in hidden comments, without changes their location. Saves trouble later on. okedem 18:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Um... were you responding to me? If so, let me point out that I said that I agree that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but just think saying that upfront is misleading (whereas instead saying seat of government unqualified is perfectly fine). I'm not really a fan of the we've talked about this before, so don't challenge it approach, especially when that before is nearly three years ago.

About the last part, I have not removed any references from the article, but I don't see why that would be a problem. We do not need eight references for the largest city item. I'm not sure what trouble commenting out the references will save later on. -- tariqabjotu 21:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

First off, saying it's "the seat of government" sounds like an evasion, and is really incomplete - it's also the seat of parliament, supreme court, presidents quarters, etc. The word for its function is capital, nothing else.

I did not make myself clear, I'm afraid. I'm not saying "don't challenge it", not at all. I'm just saying I tire of it, because this argument repeats itself on a monthly basis (forget the link on the top - go through the archives of this talk page, and Israel's talk page).

Refs - unless it's a really fringe source - we shouldn't delete it. Some sources might be challenged, others might go offline. If someone went to the trouble of finding sources, it's best to keep them. okedem 17:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is a new replacement intro. Tell me if it is not more properly NPOV than what we had.

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))^[1] is an ancient Middle Eastern city that is Israel's national capital^[2] and has pivotal importance to the world's major Abrahamic religions, among them Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel,^[3] with a population of 724,000 (as of May 24, 2006^[4]). Jerusalem is landlocked, on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, residing at elevations between 650 and 840 metres (approximately 2000-2500 feet) and on a total area of 123 km² (47 mi²).^[5] The city is situated southeast of Tel Aviv, south of Ramallah, southwest of Jericho, and north of Bethlehem. Politically, Jerusalem neighbours the Palestinian Territories of the West Bank, which Israelis know as Judea and Samaria, a disputed region under Israeli control since 1967.

Since approximately the 10th century BCE, Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual homeland of the Jewish people, appearing at least 700 times in the Hebrew Bible.^[6] According to the Gospels and the New Testament, Jesus died, rose from the dead and will return again to Jerusalem, giving the city great importance to many denominations of Christianity. Jerusalem is generally regarded as the third holiest site in Islam, and it is narrated in orthodox Muslim sources to be the destination of Muhammad's miraculous journey, as well as the original qibla (direction of prayer) for Muslims. Historically, Crusades have been fought between Christians and Muslims for control of the city and the surrounding "Holy Land", and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is said to commemorate the site of Jesus' crucifixion. Today, Jerusalem's most important and contested landmarks are the Western Wall (Wailing Wall) of the Temple Mount for Jews, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock for Muslims.

Jerusalem currently has a large Jewish majority, but the city represents a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups. The section called the Old City is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.^[7] Barely one kilometer square,^[8] it is surrounded by walls and consists of four quarters: the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters. Surrounding the Old City are modern areas. The civic and cultural centre of modern Israel in western Jerusalem stretches toward the country's other urban areas to the west, while Palestinian areas dominate to the north, east and south of the Old City, with many citizens of Israel as well. However, despite or because of the diverse population, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighbourhoods known as East Jerusalem is particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state. Thus, the status of united Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal capital" is not widely recognised by the international community, and most countries locate their embassies in Tel Aviv.

The current mayor of Jerusalem is Uri Lupolianski, the first Haredi Jew ever to hold this position.

Here is the OLD one for comparison:

it's this version

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jerusalem&oldid=102474689

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))^[9] is Israel's largest city^[10] and national capital, with a population of 724,000 (as of May 24, 2006^[4]). An ancient Middle Eastern city on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem resides at elevations between 650 and 840 metres (approximately 2000-2500 feet) and on a total area of 123 km² (47 mi²).^[11] The city is situated southeast of Tel Aviv, south of Ramallah, southwest of Jericho, and north of Bethlehem.

Jerusalem has a large Jewish majority, but the city still represents a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism (and has been since approximately the 10th century BCE) and some denominations of Christianity (since the 5th century CE). Jewish religious law holds that prayers should be conducted facing the direction of the city and specifically in the direction of the Temple Mount.^[12] Jerusalem is generally revered by Muslims as the location of al-Aqsa Mosque, generally regarded as the "third holiest site in Islam", and the original qibla (direction of prayer), prior to Mecca. Jerusalem appears in the Hebrew Bible 669 times, while "Zion" (which usually means Jerusalem, although sometimes the Land of Israel) appears 154 times.^[13] Alternatively, the New Testament mentions "Jerusalem" 154 times and "Zion" seven times. No reference to the city is found in the Qur'an.

The section called the Old City (barely one square kilometer^[14]) is surrounded by walls and consists of four quarters: the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters. The Old City was named by the American television show Good Morning America and newspaper USA Today as one of the "New Seven Wonders of the World" in 2006.^[15] However, despite the diverse, heterogeneous presence, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The status of united Jerusalem as Israel's capital is not universally recognised by the international community and Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is particularly controversial. East Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the desired capital for a future Palestinian state.

The current Israeli mayor of Jerusalem is Uri Lupolianski, the first Haredi Jew ever to hold this position.

172.144.0.252 15:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with your suggestion. One point - I don't know if most countries base their embassies in Tel Aviv. Many have embassies in other cities, like Herzlia. Unless we can find a source, we'd better just say - "...in other cities, like Tel Aviv." okedem 21:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've taken out some of the unnecessary wordiness, unsourced, POV, and circumlocutions, as well as political discussions that weren't actually about Jerusalem. By the way, if both the New York Times and Microsoft Encarta can call Jerusalem "Israel's largest city", then so can we. If you don't like my cleanup, we can certainly return to the original consensus introduction instead. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Um, was that directed at me? Because I never took out anything about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city, I just put it in the second sentence to focus the first one on it being Israel's capital, and on the religious significance, both of which I think we could all agree are the most important facts about Jerusalem- and having the three religions mentioned in the first sentence, plus calling it "a Middle Eastern city which is Israel's capital", seems like it may help to keep a feeling of objectivity without seeming to privilege one side. Maybe. and then of course the special Jewish significance must be noted first, in the next para that talks about the significance to religions.

No one can deny that it is Israel's capital, as your side keeps pointing out. In the same way no one can deny the West Bank is under Israeli control. Whether you choose to say Jerusalem is "the largest city IN ISRAEL", or that "Palestinian territories are under Israeli OCCUPATION"... those words are slightly inflammatory despite in both cases being quite true on their face, so it's a different story depending on viewpoint. I just found out in researching this that the government of Israel has refused to ever specify the borders of Jerusalem! So there is not even any way for someone to object to the borders. they are also intentionally being ambiguous with the "security barrier"/"apartheid wall" and where they choose to construct that, whether in or out of the "green line".

so to say Jerusalem is "in" Israel in the very first sentence intro==could appear to be pushing a certain idea, that whatever idea anyone has about Jerusalem, the absolute most important thing is that it (by extension, all of it, however the Israeli government chooses to define it, if ever) is "in" Israel. this would certainly be highly POV and unlikely to find agreement by the vast majority of earth's population.

It also seemed slightly like the population stuff, along with the reference to how many times Jerusalem is named in various religions' holy books, had a strong bias with the way whoever wrote the previous version had been presenting it (with the punchline being that Jerusalem is never in the Quran- hmm, so why mention it?). But no, I didn't delete the population thing. The population and the fact that it's the largest city in Israel is still duly noted in the second line. The only sources I deleted were for things that already had 10 OTHER MORE REPUTABLE SOURCES cited saying the same thing. Whoever made these sources was actually very clever. I think they were trying not to find real sources for contentious stuff but to make the intro so unwieldy and unreadable to an editor that they would not be able to figure out how to remove the POV assertions in it, and they succeeded... for a while.

And whatever "consensus" resulted in that atrocity of a former introduction I posted for comparison, was probably the consensus of the few biased people who hadn't given up on the article. If you want to revert it, maybe you should go back much further in time. But I see it's still the same version, so I don't know if your owrk was reverted or what. 172.144.0.252 00:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a "side", the writing is better in this version, the sources say it's Israel's largest city, this article is about Jerusalem not the status of the West Bank (and people know what the West Bank is anyway), the religious stuff should not be mentioned twice in the same lead, and you messed up the grammar around the quarters. The next time I go back to the consensus version. I'm willing to compromise, but you can't keep POVing this intro. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the second paragraph could really do better in the Religious significance section, which is really struggling at the moment. -- tariqabjotu 02:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources (January 2007)

I removed three more sources – the ones that were other encyclopedias. They are, for the most part, doing the same thing we are (compiling information) so, although they are correct, it would be better to use other sources, if possible. Three sources still exist so I thought removing the encyclopedia sources was fine; others could also easily be found if there is a dire need for more. In regards to the footnote I added, I simply copied what was stated in the footnote in the Israel article; I assumed that wording got consensus there at some point. Either way, in my opinion, it summarizes the situation well while not dodging the word capital which seems to be a non-negotiable. -- tariqabjotu 04:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Please don't remove sources; in contentious articles more sources are always required, never fewer. Contrary to the suspicions of the IP editor above, extra sources are always needed for this kind of thing because otherwise people start removing simple facts from articles because they contradict their own political biases. I've allowed a couple of sources to be deleted, but that's the limit. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

But encyclopedias are tertiary sources. Tertiary sources can be used for names, spellings, locations, dates and dimensions. Articles signed by experts should be regarded as more reliable than unsigned articles. Unsigned articles should not be used to support any controversial or complex points. Secondary sources should be given priority over tertiary ones. So, essentially we're using three tertiary sources to help support a controversial point, even though there are more than enough secondary sources available. If you want six sources, get six good sources; resorting to three encyclopedias suggests we were having trouble finding enough sources to back our point. Please also respond to my comment about the footnote that you removed. -- tariqabjotu 05:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but that wording was changed, and not by consensus, less that two weeks ago. Before then it never said anything about unsigned articles not being "used to support any controversial or complex points", and specifically mentioned Encylopedia Brittanica as a reliable source. I've restored the original wording. If you want to add the other footnote, please feel free to, but please don't combine it with a complex edit removing other footnotes. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

If you want to say I didn't mean to remove that part, just say that. Don't make it sound as if there was some ulterior motive in making more than one change at a time. And don't make it sound as if it's a federal crime to revert only part of an edit. Sheesh. -- tariqabjotu 00:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capital, "largest city" out of intro

The question of which city is Israel's largest is, imo, spectacularly uninteresting. However, a google search for "largest city Tel-Aviv" (including the quotes) will find a large number of contrary claims, many satisfying the usual criteria for "reliable source". The point is that the number of citations is not the issue. Rather than citing a long list of sources that could easily be countered by an equally long list of disagreeing sources, the footnote should clearly state what definition of "largest" is being used and link to the official statistics that establish it. --Zero^talk 06:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Zero0000's comment, though I would add that a claim so obviously questionable and so unessential to the definition and introduction of Jerusalem probably should not be part of the first sentence of the article. Palmiro | Talk 19:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you find some reliable, non-partisan sources that say that some other city is actually Israel's largest city? Then we can talk. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Source [2] To Rule Jerusalem by Richard D. Hecht, Roger Friedland , 2000, University of California Press

In 1967, Tel Aviv was the largest city in Israel. By 1987, more Jews lived in Jerusalem than the toral population of Tel Aviv. Jerusalem had become Israel's premier city.

The Arab population of East Jerusalem, which had stagnated under Jordanian rule, doubleed during these first two decades of Israeli administration. Whereas the city's Jewish population is fed by continous streams of immigrants. Arab population growth has depended almost exclusively on natural increase. The Israeli goverment makes it very difficult for Palestinians who live on what most Israelis consider to be "occupied" territories, even if they own property in Jerusalem proper, to migrate into the city. According to Israeli law, a Palestinian from the West Bank is not allowed even to stay overnight in Jerusalem without formal permission. Despite this prohibition, the economic lure of Jerusalem-both jobs and health, insurance, and educational benefits that come with residence - has been such that thousands of West Bank Palestinians maintain an illegal residence in Jerusalem....

128.32.48.91 21:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the source you've quoted supports the point that Jerusalem is Israel's largest city, and has been so since 1987. Thank you. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome! :) 128.32.38.119 21:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm confused. First, the largest city fact is controversial so we need as many sources as possible. Now, it's completely uncontroversial so there's no need to move it out of the first sentence. Which is it? Would it be too much to reword the first paragraph to something along the lines of:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))^[16] is a landlocked Middle Eastern city located in an enclave of the West Bank between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is Israel's national capital,^[17] although its status as such has been disputed by the United Nations and much of the international community since the annexation of East Jerusalem into Israel. With a population of approximately 724,000^[4] and an area totaling 123 km² (47 mi²), Jerusalem is also Israel's largest city in both population and area.^[18]

(I omitted the information about elevation and proximity to other cities because that seems more relevant in the #Physical geography section). -- tariqabjotu 00:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You're misstating the issue; it is a simple fact that Jerusalem is Israel's largest city, as attested by many reliable sources. However, that doesn't mean that it still isn't controversial; indeed, even the simplest facts about Israel are contested by partisans on a daily basis. The statement that Jerusalem was Israel's largest city was originally simply in the article; then an IP editor started editing this and other articles solely for the purpose of insisting that Tel Aviv was Israel's largest city, not Jerusalem. This went on for weeks and weeks; thus, in the end, a large number of high-quality sources had to be brought to point out that amongst non-partisan reliable sources this was seen as a simple fact, regardless of the polemical political bias individual editors wished to insert into the subject. As for your intro, it is incorrect; Jerusalem has served as Israel's capital for much longer than that. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

As for your intro, it is incorrect; Jerusalem has served as Israel's capital for much longer than that. I know it has been the capital for over half a century, but I said the unified Jerusalem. Nevertheless, I have rephrased the sentence...

Jerusalem is Israel's national capital,^[19] although its status as such has been disputed by the United Nations and much of the international community since the annexation of East Jerusalem into Israel.

...to clarify what I meant (I think it sounds better this way anyway). Now, can you get around to addressing the concept of moving the capital and largest city facts out of the first sentence? -- tariqabjotu 03:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not irredeemable, but it seems that instead of addressing what are the typically most relevant facts about a city, instead it tries to push some political POV right up front. The article on Shanghai says Shanghai (Chinese: 上海; pinyin: Shànghǎi (help·info); Wu (Long-short): Zånhae; Shanghainese (IPA): [zɑ̃'he]), situated on the banks of the Yangtze River Delta in East China, is the largest city of the People's Republic of China and the eighth largest in the world. The article on Moscow says Moscow (Russian: Москва́, Romanized: Moskva, IPA: [mʌsk'va] (help·info)) is the capital of Russia and the country's principal political, economic, financial, educational, and transportation center, located on the Moskva River in the Central Federal District, in the European part of Russia. The name of the city is usually pronounced "Mos-koh" (rhyming with "toe") in British English and "Mos-kow" (rhyming with "now") in US English. The city's population of 10.4 million permanent inhabitants within the city boundaries [1] constitutes about 7% of the total Russian population. Likewise, it is the most populous city in Europe. New York City says New York City is the most populous city in the United States and one of the major global cities of the world. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

<-(removing indents) Would you accuse Encarta of pushing a political POV because they don't mention that it's the capital of Israel until the sixth sentence and even then, they note that Palestinians and the United Nations dispute the claim? Is Britannica pushing a political point-of-view as well because they neglect to mention the capital fact upfront? Do you also blame Britannica for noting that the annexation of East Jerusalem is what makes Jerusalem the largest city in Israel? I must have missed something in regards to your examples of Shanghai, Moscow, and New York. Has Moscow's status as the capital of Russia been rejected by the United Nations? Or has New York's position as the most populous city in the United States come under fire? We can still mention that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel without saying that in the first sentence (like it does in my example) and we call say that Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel (as it does in the example). However, we would be doing readers a great disservice if we forced them to look at the footnote or a couple paragraphs later for a fact that is just as important and relevant and very easy to note (that the annexation of East Jerusalem has caused the capital fact to be disputed and resulted in Jerusalem being Israel's largest city). And to be honest, relegating to a footnote or a subsequent paragraph a short mention of the dispute would be itself a push of a political point-of-view. -- tariqabjotu 14:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, Britannica Concise states Jerusalem is the capital of Israel right at the top of its article. Also, none of those encyclopedias seem to push the political controversy into the second sentence. In addition, it wasn't the annexation of East Jerusalem that cause Jerusalem to be the largest Israeli city, but rather the huge growth in the Jewish population there. And, while I recognize that there is a controversy about Jerusalem being Israel's capital, where is the "controversy" about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city, except in the minds of Wikipedia editors? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, Britannica Concise states Jerusalem is the capital of Israel right at the top of its article. And that makes perfect sense for an article that's barely a paragraph long. Nevertheless, it says (see below), an obvious allusion to the note about the controversy in the subsequent paragraph. If it weren't for East Jerusalem's population, Tel Aviv would be Israel's most populous city (and perhaps largest in area? unsure). And although Encarta does not mention the controversy in the second sentence, it is mentioned in the sixth – at the same time the capital designation is mentioned. The distance between our mention of the capital and the controversy is large and although it is mentioned in the footnote, it could very easily fit in the text like it was prior to September 2006. [W]here is the "controversy" about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city, except in the minds of Wikipedia editors? My guess comes in the fact that many do not see the annexation as legitimate, but this controversy is not as significant as the one in regards to the capital. -- tariqabjotu 19:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Tariqabjotu. I think your proposed intro there might be considered beyond the pale to most here because it relegates the Israeli-ness of Jerusalem to sounding like a secondary point. But I noticed the article has since been edited again, to remove the changes I made to be more objective, and is blatantly POV at the moment. Take a look at the current editor's efforts to establish the number of times "Jerusalem" and (!) "Zion" are mentioned in different Holy Books and how they're never mentioned in the Quran as a way of, well, de-Arabizing and de-Islamizing Jerusalem. Even the most hardcore pro-Israeli editors should notice this kind of stuff is ridiculous for an intro.

I am done here, it's too contentious and I wouldn't want to do much to articles like this without just an IP without signing-up. I think my intro was much better than what we have now, though, even if it could also have been improved.

I also think the solution to this "political" problem is to mention Jerusalem's "pivotally important" status for three major religions in the very first sentence, along with its status as Israel's capital, and then to put information about it being the largest city in Israel in the NEXT sentence. This dodges the question of West Bank/Palestinians/etc (which some feel is irrelevant, just like they feel the people are irrelevant) but does include Islam right there with Judaism and Xtianity, reducing the possibility of edit wars. It also makes sense for encylopedic grounds regardless of being politically correct, since the religious significance of Jerusalem is probably the MOST important thing about it from a WORLDWIDE VIEW. The fact that it's a capital is a fact that must be mentioned first (and qualified later, perhaps). But the info about the size of the city is not quite as important, unless someone has a certain interest in ramming the Israeli-ness of Jerusalem down people's throats in the first sentence. Not all Jews are Israelis either, so Jerusalem's status as an important city for Jews worldwide (not to mention Christians and Muslims) is also being sold short by not mentioning religion early. imo. The only reason Jerusalem is much of a city today at all is basically for religious reasons! That's why Zionists went there at first, even if they were secular and the importance was just symbolic. I am not a religious person though, it's just it seems that is the main way people view Jerusalem, including a lot of those who live there, and would be appropriate for line #1.

Keep up the watching of this page Tariqa to make sure the NPOV warning stays there until the intro changes please. 172.144.0.252 18:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A new proposal

I would still like to see the current controversy over the city put closer to the capital fact, but if the RfC consensus appears to go the other way, I'll live with it. In the event (wishful thinking?) this article becomes a featured article and gets set for an appearance on the Main Page, a different one-paragraph summary different from the first paragraph of the article can be used (one, I hope, mentions the current status of the city in some way). But that's for another day. Currently, there are seriously trivial facts that appear in the intro. As a result, here is a suggestion:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))^[20] is Israel's capital^[21] and largest city both in population^[22] and area, with a population of approximately 724,000 (as of 2006^[4]) and an area totaling 123 km² (47 mi²).^[23]

Located in an enclave of the West Bank between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem is considered a holy city in three major religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE. The city is often regarded as the third-holiest in Islam and it contains a number of significant and ancient Christian landmarks. Thus, while the city has a large Jewish majority, a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups are represented. The section called the Old City is a UNESCO World Heritage Site^[24] consisting of four ethnic and religious divisions – the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters. Barely one kilometer square,^[25] the Old City is home to several of Jerusalem's most important and contested religious sites, including the Western Wall and Temple Mount for Jews and the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque for Muslims.

Surrounding the Old City are more modern areas of Jerusalem. The civic and cultural centre of modern Israel in western Jerusalem stretches toward the country's other urban areas to the west, while majority Palestinian areas dominate the north, east and south of the Old City. Today, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict; Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighbourhoods known as East Jerusalem is particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state. Thus, the status of united Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal capital" is not widely recognised by the international community, and most countries locate their embassies in Tel Aviv.

Aside from the capital fact, there really is nothing controversial about this article. The vast majority of the article should be no problem. Once I get the time back, I'll continue adding references and improving the rest of the article. -- tariqabjotu 20:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I made a couple of changes for better wording and accuracy; it doesn't look bad now. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "enclave of the West Bank", the wording implies a relationship with the West Bank that is unjustified. The notion of a "West Bank" is recent, and Jerusalem was never considered part of it; see Image:1947PartitionPlan.PNG. And in any event, Jerusalem is unquestionably located on the Judean Mountains. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The word "enclave" is actually incorrect for two different reasons. In order for a place to be an "enclave", it must be a part of a larger political unit, and it must be physically separated from that larger unit by territory of another unit. (See Enclave and exclave; the issue of which of those two terms would properly apply here (or both) would be an interesting one, except that neither applies.) As Jay points out, Jerusalem is not part of a larger political entity, the West Bank. (And that is leaving aside the fact that it is really part of Israel, since Israel controls all of it, contains part of it within its "border" and has annexed the remainder of it; but since it is contiguous with Israel, it is not an enclave/exclave of Israel either.) Therefore it does not satisfy the "political" aspect of being an enclave/exclave. As for the "physical" aspect, since Jerusalem borders on the West Bank (wherever exactly that border may be), and therefore there is no physical separation, and therefore cannot be an enclave/exclave for that reason as well. 6SJ7 21:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

According to dictionary.com, an enclave is a country, or esp., an outlying portion of a country, entirely or mostly surrounded by the territory of another country. The first sentence of the enclave and exclave article reflects the use of the word mostly. If that was not intended (or water was meant as the remaining portion) the article should be clarified. Regardless, this is no longer relevant for this article; the use of the Judean Mountains to designate the location is sufficient for me as well and no one else has appeared to want to re-insert the enclave piece. -- tariqabjotu 22:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the only controversial issue is Jerusalem's status as capital. In archeological circles, the claim that Jerusalem has been the spiritual center of Judaism since the 10th century would be an extreme position at best. The 10th century date is a religious belief, and the references cited are religious, as one would expect. For example, To Rule Jerusalem was written by two Professors of Religous Studies.

The 10th century date is important, but in order to be NPOV, it must be mentioned in the correct context. For example, the sentence:

Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual center of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE.

could be rewritten as:

According to biblical sources, Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual center of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE.

EllenS 15:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No, that makes it seem as though the whole "holiest city" thing is only according to biblical sources. The sentence is fine the way it is, and there are enough references for that. The Jewish connection to Jerusalem is well documented in non-biblical sources, and the kingdom of Judah has some fine archaeological evidence. If we went by biblical sources alone, we'd say it was something like the 11th century BC (David). okedem 15:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The sentence is in no way fine the way it is. It is clearly POV and needs to be altered. If you have non-biblical sources, fine. But not one of the references used actually qualifies as NPOV. Outside of the Biblical sources, the one and only archeological find that even comes close is the Tel Dan Stele, which itself is controversial. And even for those of us who feel the stele is genuine, it fails to provide evidence that backs the claim that Jerusalem was the spiritual center of Judaism in the 10 century BC.

I would hate to tag an otherwise well done artical with a POV tag. However if the references to this claim are not qualified, I will have no choice. EllenS 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As noted below, I don't believe the large number of references is the appropriate remedy. Fewer supporting references and a note similar to the one under footnote 21 could suffice. -- tariqabjotu 16:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not the number of references, but their presentation as NPOV sources. They are largely religion based and all are POV. As long as the statements are qualified, I have no problem with the sources. EllenS 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

All sources are POV. The idea that there such a thing as an "NPOV" source isn't consistent with Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Wikipedia requires representing all significant points of view on the subject. If the issue is that an editor disagrees with the source it would be best to say so explicitly. In this case if we are asking if Jerusalem is the "holiest city", this is an essentially religious claim and I'm not sure if there could be any other reliable source then religious sources. If the question is whether it was the spiritual center of the Bible in the 10th century BCE, this is both a religious and an historical claim. "According to the Bible" could be used to present the religious POV involved. Best, --Shirahadasha 02:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Shirahadasha, for clarifying the point I was trying to express. It is the historical, not the religious aspect that is questionable. Again, with the proper qualification, there is nothing wrong with the references. EllenS 02:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What makes you think the sources in question are "largely religion based"? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added a footnote regarding the Biblical accounts (and I have also moved a few other non-references out of the References section as there was some complex linking that appeared to work better this way). I hope this is sufficient. -- tariqabjotu 05:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the changes are not sufficient. The statements which reference the 10th century date need to be qualified as both Shirahadasha and I have suggested.EllenS 13:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what more you're asking for; "according to the Bible" was added in the footnote. In the same manner we shouldn't add the lengthy capital footnote to the body of the article, we shouldn't be adding the footnote regarding Biblical sources to the article (as the time period is a generally-accepted historical fact). There's more detail under #History. I also believe the {{POV}} template for this one bit is, at best, an exaggeration. -- tariqabjotu 15:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Qualified in what way? Can you be explicit, and refer back to the sources in question for any claims you make? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I hope you all don't mind the changes I made to the infobox. Most notably, I used a different city photo since panoramic photos aren't infobox-friendly (due to their extra-wide proportions). Additionally, I added the flag of Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 04:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Born in Jerusalem

This edit made this section completely disappear while it was not yet decided whether its supposed to be in the article or not. If someone cares about this section, decide about its fate. Thanks. – Alensha ^talk 16:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Galleries Galore

I'm not really a fan of having galleries in articles that serve no purpose, and this article has three. In my opinion, I think we need to cut down on the astounding thirty-eight (38) images in the article. If people want to look at pictures of Jerusalem, they should head over to Wikimedia Commons (which is prominently linked from the bottom of the page). Instead of crowding the images with unnecessary images, we should be striving to only include images that relate to topics covered in the text. For example, the closeup image of Mount Olives (Jerusalem from mt olives.jpg) is not needed by the name section since it is not discussed. If there are images that are especially aesthetic but don't belong anywhere else, perhaps we could consider placing a couple next to the external links. -- tariqabjotu 16:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic name

Why is the Hebrew name for Jerusalem kept in the header, but the Arabic name bumped down to "Notes" [3]?Bless sins 20:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at how long the first sentence was originally. Additionally, the Hebrew name is more closely related to the most-common name of Jerusalem given the phonetic similarities. -- tariqabjotu 04:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Arabic is one of the two native languages, and an official language of Israel as well as the only language used by the PLO and State of Palestine, and I'm not aware that any other entities claim jurisdiction over Jerusalem. The Arabic clearly belongs in the lead, though I agree that the less common Arabic usages could be relegated to the footnote.

The claim that Al-Quds represents "Muslim Arabic" was incorrect. There is no such thing as Muslim or Christian Arabic in general, and certainly not in Palestine (in Baghdad I think there were formerly dialectical differences between the speech of Muslims and Christians, but that was quite unusual). In both modern standard Arabic and colloquial Palestinian Arabic, Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, universally refer to Jerusalem as "al-Quds". The misapprehension may have arisen from the use of "Urshalim" in the Bible and in Christian liturgical usage, but outside this confined sphere Christians use "al-Quds" just as Muslims do. Palmiro | Talk 20:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Although I agree with you, I must correct you on one count - there is no such entity as the "State of Palestine". There's only the Palestinian Authority. A Palestinian state is planned, for the future, but does not currently exist. okedem 21:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

See State of Palestine. The PNA has no jurisdiction in Jerusalem, which is why I didn't mention it - although it does have a Jerusalem Governorate, which as far as I know is a political fiction similar to the State of Palestine. Palmiro | Talk 21:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection with the way it is now; it's not taking up two lines anymore (at least at 1280px), so I'm satisfied. Good call on the Muslim / Christian Arabic part... that was a bit... odd. -- tariqabjotu 21:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Everybody in agreement? That can't be right... Ya Tariq, I completely agree with you about the undesirability of beginning articles with lengthy bracketed inclusions that the vast majority of readers can't even read. Unfortunately, there seems to be a considerable consensus in favour of it. Bratislava shows one reasonable way of getting around this, by the way. But here, I suppose having two names is bearable where having four certainly wasn't. Palmiro | Talk 22:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To-do list

As is probably obvious for those watching this article, I added a to-do list at the top of the page. I encourage everyone to add items to the list for things that need to be done as well encourage everyone to try and take care of some of the items. If you object to some of the points in the to-do list, please do not post your objections in the to-do list itself, but instead on this talk page (perhaps under this section). I will, hopefully, be putting a great deal of effort over the next few weeks into improving the article. -- tariqabjotu 05:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps someone who could provide a truly neutral point of view would edit this artical?

It's necessary. This is not the place for political struggles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.90.167.95 (talk) 23:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] RfC

Should the facts about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city and capital be moved out of the first sentence of the article and into later on in the first paragraph so that more detail can be added? (see #Capital, "largest city" out of intro) 14:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course not! Jerusalem IS mainly Israel's largest city and capital, crisis.

Maybe we'll declare Jerusalem as the capital of the state of palestine, nothing more and nothig less, and put it to an end??

This has become ridicules... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.90.167.95 (talk • contribs).

The placement is fine where it is. Blueboar 16:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

To 194.90.167.95 (talk • contribs), no one has suggested calling Jerusalem the capital of Palestine or even saying the facts are wrong. The reasoning behind the suggestion is to add some information currently only present in the footnotes without making the first sentence excessively long. For those of you (understandably) unwilling to look through the entire #Capital, "largest city" out of intro section, the only alternative to the current version put on the table thus far is:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))^[26] is a landlocked Middle Eastern city located in an enclave of the West Bank between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is Israel's national capital,^[27] although its status as such has been disputed by the United Nations and much of the international community since the annexation of East Jerusalem into Israel. With a population of approximately 724,000^[4] and an area totaling 123 km² (47 mi²), Jerusalem is also Israel's largest city in both population and area.^[28]

Nothing about Palestine, and the text says Jerusalem is Israel's national capital. For some arguments already presented for or against this type of rephrasing, see the whole talk page section. -- tariqabjotu 17:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at articles on other capital cities (see: London, Washington D.C., Amman, and Cairo just to name a few) a statement that the city in question is the capital of its country seems to always come in the first sentence. Thus, I see no need to change the placement in this article. Blueboar 18:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

But Jerusalem is unique in that its status as capital is rejected by much of the international community. -- tariqabjotu 19:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

To me that does not affect the placement of the sentence. The convention is that such information goes in the first sentence. I suppose if one had to get ultra picky and ultra NPOV, you could say something along the line of: "Jerusalem is Israel's capital city, although that status is questioned by [names of specific countries or groups that question its status]. It is Israel's largest city both in ...." Out of curiosity... What city does this "much of the international community" say IS the capital of Israel? (and what constitues "much"). Blueboar 02:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You're saying "much of the international community" as if this is a spurious claim. By much of the international community, it is meant the majority of countries; that [names of specific countries or groups that question its status] piece would get quite long. Nearly every country has complied with United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 as no country currently has an embassy in Jerusalem (most have been moved to Tel Aviv). However, there is no way really to force Israel to stop using Jerusalem as its capital so it still is so; the status as such has just been rejected. Take a look at the last sentence of the current intro. This is not something I just made up as you make it sound; that kind of language has existed in the intro for awhile, just in a different location. See also: Positions on Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 03:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to fuel the fire, but the UN also calls the entire Middle East "Southwest Asia", which no one uses popularly. I also would venture to say that none of the natives of the region would consider themselves Asian, either. In the same vein, it might be better to encompass all the POVs, popular, official and otherwise, but do it in two sentences, not one. It's clearly Israel's largest city. Set that on its own, and then address the capital issue in the next sentence. MSJapan 04:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Tariqabjotu - I am sure you know the details about Jerusalem's status far better than I... and I don't really want to debate the issue with you. I came here because you posted a RFC. I am sorry that my comments do not fit the answer you obviously wanted to hear.

From your comments, it seems that the real issue here is "Should the article say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?" This is a vastly different question, and not what was asked at the RfC. There, the assumption was that the statement was uncontested, and the only question was "Where should we put the statement". I gave you my opinion, and the reasoning behind it. Assuming that the article is going to continue to bluntly state "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", I feel that the statement should go in the first sentence... so that it conforms to other articles on capital cities. That's my opinion... Take it or leave it as you wish. Alternatives are: 1) Say that Jerusalem is the capital according to Israel, but not according to others (you can figure out the wording ... but I would still put that info in the first sentence) 2) DO NOT say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. 3) Delete the RfC and do what you want.

Please do not bother to reply, or to put additional comments on my talk page. I have given you my opinion and now I'm done. Good luck with this article. Blueboar 14:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to be very knowledgeable about the status of Jerusalem as the capital (and I really can't say the same), but your admission is precisely why I responded. I'm not trying to beat you into agreeing with me; I clearly said on your talk page that if you understood the question, there was no need to do anything. But you continued the discussion, which is entirely reasonable because RfCs are not just a solicitation of opinions without discussion. From your latest statement to which I replied, it seemed as if you were not aware of the controversy surrounding the city. So, why wouldn't I explain it to you? (It's in the article footnote #3 but, naturally, many people assume they're just references and nothing real important). In fact, you ended your comment with two questions. And so I answered your questions. I feel it is the obligation of anyone involved in this article to ensure that those responding to the RfC have some knowledge of the controversy surrounding the city. With any RfC in fact, it is expected that those responding either have some knowledge of the dispute or at least are willing to look at the appropriate section(s) (which was linked in the original question) to gather the requisite knowledge. If the opposition feels anyone was misinformed, they are free to chime in. And, no the question is not "Should the article say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?" as I tried to clarify when I responded to the IP; no one (at least recently) has suggested saying it's not. You say you weren't going to respond any more, but do whatever you please; this is a discussion and not a straw poll. -- tariqabjotu 16:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence absolutely should say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, because it is, and because it is one of the facts about the city that is so significant that it needs to be in the intro. (Or to paraphrase what someone else said, "convention" on Wikipedia is that the fact that a city is a national capital receives prominent mention in the intro.) The controversy over Jerusalem's status and the reaction of the UN and other countries is amply covered (perhaps more than amply covered) in this article and others. 6SJ7 20:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be mentioned earlier on that is not accepted de jure as the capital of Israel by most countries. As it is now, omitting this fact while rambling about stuff like "spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE." it just looks poor. Of course this stuff deserves a prominent place in the article, but the City's legal status in the eyes of the world is a hard fact and should be there already in the first paragraph. "The status of Jerusalem as capital of Israel is disputed by many countries." pertn 13:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I would have to agree with 6SJ7 on this point. Lets keep in mind that this formulation is the product of a long-argued discussion, and so we should not be so eager to overturn this consensus. Tewfik^Talk 17:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the name

According to Charles H. Miller, who authored the article on the city in the HarperCollins Bible Dictionary:

The earliest literary references to "Rushalimum" appear in Egyptian Execration Texts of the twentieth and nineteenth centuries BC The fourteenth-century BC Amarna Letters speak of "Urusalim." "Yerushalem" was probably the original pronunciation in Hebrew, later modified to the dual form "Yerushalayyim." The name seems to mean "Foundation of [the god] Shalem." Shalem and his twin, Shahar, are known from Ugaritic texts as the gods of twilight and dawn respectively. Scholarly opinion is divided over the identification of Melchizedek's "Salem" with Jerusalem. (In The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary, revised edition, ed. by Paul J. Achtemeier (HarperSanFrancisco, 1996).

How does this square with the current intro. text? Fishhead64 19:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

For more on this, see Zero0000's excellent discussion of the etymology of Jerusalem in his Temp page, which seems to be no longer updated: [4]. AbcXyz 11:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orginal Seal

Maybe on this article or something related to the history of jerusalem, someone should put something to the effect that the pentagram is the original seal of jerusalem(see pentagram for more details). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.208.78.62 (talk) 03:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

AFAIK, it is an image of an ancient coin rather than "the original seal of jerusalem". ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 07:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting a site for art, music and culture in Jerusalem?!

Moving this here from my talk page. I'd like to see input from other editors. If others feel that this ext.link does belong in the article in the ===Culture=== subsection, I won't object. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 07:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, A few days ago you deletd a site for art, music and culture in Jerusalem

www.jlm.israel.net

It is not a personal site, but an extensive site with the cultural events in Jerusalem. For four years, up until a few months ago a weekly paper with the weekly cultural events in Jerusalem was distributed in hundreds of copies, and today the site has over 1,000 visitors daily.

It is a much more extensive calendar than "Go Jerusalem", which is in the catergory of cultural external links.

Please put the link back.

Haketem 09:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is from my talk page: (Haketem 07:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

I have nothing against a website entitled "Messy.Boat.Bitch.On.Yacht" that meets a visitor with dog-barking, but it strikes me as unencyclopedic. Please see WP:EL. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Humus, The name of the site is derived from the Hebrew name "Messibot Bitchoniot" (Beet-Khon-Yot), which in Hebrew means both "for security reasons" (A common phrase in Israeli Hebrew) and "Security Parties". (Messibot = Parties, Meh=For, Sibot=Reasons). It used to be a weekly paper until a few months ago (For over four years), and might be published in the future. the site has been up since 2005 and is a main source of information with hundreds of cultural events in Jerusalem. It has almost all events in the alternative scene, though "mainstream" events (it is hard to say there is a main stream in Jerusalem, having so many cultures and no river to provide a stream) are also publicized. It does not focus on alternative cultural events, but it doesn't ignore them as the local media does.

The site is updated by dozens of Jerusalemite artists, organizations and places wanting to publicize their events. It does not have any advertizing and is updated and edited by the public (Does it remind of of a specific site you're surfing regularly?), unlike other sites which are linked to from the "Jerusalem" page.

As to being "unencyclopedic" - being encyclopedic or not is not a matter of form, it is a matter of function. The name "Wiki" and the logo of a ball puzzle with missing pieces might strike some people as "unencyclopedic", but it is the information it withholds, and the way it is used that makes it encyclopedic.

Please put the link back, so that people can have access to more information about the cultural events in Jerusalem. I'm sorry most of it is in Hebrew (Though the interface is in English), but being an open-source cultural events calendar people update it as they please - it can be Hebrew, English, Arabic, Russian or any other language UTF-8 can withstand - most people update it in Hebrew.

Haketem 00:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This is the article about it in Wikipedia in Hebrew

Here is the discussion about keeping it as an article in Wikipedia in Hebrew (right now there are 23 votes to keep the article, and 12 against. None of those against it specified why they are against)Haketem 07:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the link. All of the content seems to be in Hebrew, and there's no point in linking a Hebrew site here (oh, and it looks very silly - a barking dog? Messy.boat.bitch.on.yacht? It doesn't even sound the same as the name in Hebrew). okedem 10:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The platform of the site is in English, it is updated by people, artists and organizations and can update it in any language they please. Most are in Hebrew, but sometimes people update it in Engilsh, Arabic and Russian as well. If you find a better Calendar for Cultural Events in Jerusalem you're invited to add it, but right now it seems there isn't a better one.

The issue of appearing silly to you is not a factor, it's the content of the site that matters.

Haketem 11:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think a website entitled "Messy.boat.bitch.on.yacht" is encyclopedic enough to be linked from this article. Even looking through the content of the website, it does not look like the site is bringing anything new to the table. -- tariqabjotu 21:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If you can find a more extensive cultural events calendar maybe you should add it, but since there is one, and probably the only one, why not have it in the article?

Read the previous lines about being encyclopedic, it strikes me odd that wikipedians are dealing with design instead of content. Haketem 07:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've talked about the content - it's in Hebrew. I don't care whether anyone can update it in other languages - the vast majority of content is in Hebrew, and thus - has no interest for the English speaking public. okedem 08:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't remove any references

Please don't remove any references in contentious articles like this. Every claim made here is fought fiercely by partisans and propagandists; thus, if one wants to make a simple claim that Jerusalem is Israel's largest city, it takes two months of edit-warring and arguing, until finally a half-dozen impeccable references are provided, and then the edit-warring finally dies down. To have an editor come along a month later and delete all those references on grounds that are incomprehensible at best is rather disturbing. There is no good reason for removing good references. None. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, here's how it would work with the shortened footnote regarding Jerusalem being the spiritual center of the Jewish people for three millennia. You removed all the references except the one from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. First someone would come along and insist that, according to NPOV, the statement would have to say "according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs". Next, someone else would come along and insist that the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not a reliable source, and therefore delete the material altogether. Best not to go down that road at all. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if you could be a little less dogmatic in your position; it would go a heck of a long way.

I would like to first take issue that you have a half a dozen impeccable references, since you don't. We cite Encarta for the "largest city" statement, even though the following sentence in their article cites the Jewish Israeli - Palestinian Arab population split as being 73%-24% (when it's really closer to 65%-32%). That same article also mis-states the area of Jerusalem as 123 sq. km (even though it's really 126 sq. km). You cite an article from the Anti-Defamation League even though it clearly has an agenda (the page has a header that says "Advocating for Israel / An Activist's Guide / What You Need to Know to Fight for Israel's Security"). Hardly impeccable.

I'm unsure where you get the impression that the edit-warring has died down due to the flurry of references you have added and now are vehemently defending. The controversy regarding the 'largest city' fact, in so far as I can see, is that Jerusalem cannot be considered the largest city in Israel unless all of Jerusalem is considered part of Israel. With the exception of the Britannica source, none of your sources address this piece of the matter (and we really should shy away from using Britannica as a source). The Central Bureau of Statistics report could easily suffice as a reference so long as it's accompanied by a note saying that statistics refer to the unified Jerusalem; as of right now, that is the case.

As for the other lengthy reference (the one titled "10th century BCE"), I don't understand why this was added. You inexplicably added it last week, even though there had not been an ounce of controversy here regarding this fact. So... it's okay for you to unilaterally change something, but when I make a change contrary to yours, with agreement from another editor, it's suddenly incomprehensible and disturbing. Duly noted. Also, as I said a couple months ago, if you want to make a change, make that change. Don't simply revert good edits (removing a valid reference, re-adding a misquote, and duplicating a reference) because you feel it's too difficult to revert only part of an edit.

I'm not going to touch your "partisans and propagandists" statement with a ten-foot pole; it's so dismissive, it's not even worth a response (oh the irony; now I'm being dismissive). Your hypothetical situation in your secondary response is just that... a hypothetical situation; we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. I think you're exaggerating the controversial nature of this article, thinking that every man in the land has a desire to defame Israel and Jews. As you can plainly see by this talk page, things are relatively quiet. The same even goes for the archives, aside from the occasional (and I mean occasional) question about the status of Jerusalem in Israel (which, as I mentioned earlier, is almost entirely ignored by your flurry of references). -- tariqabjotu 20:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Folks - you're both great editors, who mean well. Please don't turn this into a fight. okedem 21:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Britannica is a perfectly good source, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with using it; if anything, we should try to use it wherever possible. Jerusalem is the largest city regardless of whether you include just West Jerusalem, or the united city; that point was made months ago. Also, please don't make straw man arguments; I certainly don't think "every man in the land has a desire to defame Israel and Jews". Regarding the rest of your comments, we're not just talking about any change, and I haven't reverted any of the dozens of other changes you've made to this article recently. However, when it comes to removing references, it is indeed incomprehensible and disturbing; there is no reason I can fathom which would indicate that removing good references makes an article any better. If you make controversial and bizarre edits like that combined with other edits, it's inevitable that you're going to lose them all. And finally, just because there isn't any argument now, it doesn't mean that it won't start up again in a week, as soon as people see that the references are gone. I've seen that before too. Just look at the Talk: pages for this article; the debate about Jerusalem being Israel's capital has been going on for three years. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I really don't think we should be using information from a recent edition of another encyclopedia, but that's a trivial point. I did not set up a straw man argument; I actually responded to what you said. If anything, I'm guilty of hyperbole saying that part. But that's another trivial point. Regarding the references themselves: how about we at least start by removing the Encarta and Anti-Defamation League references (per the reasons above) and add to the "largest city" footnote that the city is the largest even if just West Jerusalem is considered part of Israel. Additionally, you'll re-add the information that you inadvertently removed but agree with (which hopefully will be all the things I mentioned above).

Your statement that If you make controversial and bizarre edits like that combined with other edits, it's inevitable that you're going to lose them all. is ridiculous. Please don't make me explain why. -- tariqabjotu 01:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Please don't remove any of the references I have added, including the Encarta and ADL ones. I see absolutely no reason why they should be removed, and many reasons why they should be retained. They are considered reliable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia, and The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.Jayjg ^(talk) 03:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You are unbelieveable. I provided reasons above as to why those sources are bad, but the reasons for retaining the references essentially boils down to "because I put them there; now don't remove them" (given the title of this section and your oft-repeated phrase). WP:V is a guideline, not a suicide pact; there's a reason we have thinking human beings writing articles instead of a dozen robots in a room slavishly adhering to a set of guidelines. The guideline does not say "Don't use a bad source, when you have five or six better sources (and when even that is too many)", but we ought to be able to discern that ourselves. Additionally, as the recent discussion at #A new proposal demonstrates, simply adding a slew of sources does nothing to placate potential controversy. You have to address the points of conflict, not just shove redundant sources in people's faces and hope they'll be too inundated to question them.

Lastly, you still have not made an attempt to fix the mistake you made. Perhaps you could at least get to that... -- tariqabjotu 03:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:V is a fundamental Wikipedia policy, not a "guideline". Adding several references slows people down, at least, and makes them go to the Talk: page. My argument is "the references are good, and the more the better, because otherwise people remove verifiable material and because Wikipedia is not paper". As for the rest, I'm not sure what other changes you want to make to the article, so you should probably make them. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I did make them. Then you removed them. And how about the 10th century BCE item; are you willing to provide a rationale for why you added them? The Encarta and ADL reference are not good, as I said earlier. -- tariqabjotu 04:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You made them in conjunction with removing references; they are complex, and involved changing the names of references, including the ones I returned. I'm not sure exactly what you wanted to do with them, or how they were to be implemented, as they involved text changes, text moves, and references changes. It would be safest if you restored them, as I understand neither their rationale nor their effect. Regarding, the 10th century BCE, the claim was questioned in other articles, and the reference used was not a good one, so I added better ones. As questions have come up regarding the claim, it is obviously yet another contentious piece of information in this article, therefore they make eminent sense. Regarding Encarta and ADL, both sources are considered reliable for Wikipedia's purposes, so your question does not make any sense to me. I've already referred to the relevant part of WP:V. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't seem to think this is the type of situation where verifiability over truth applies. We already have verifiability through one or two reliable sources. The addition of questionable sources is poor form, not to mention unnecessary. But in the end, I'm not sure if this is worth arguing much further. I can only hope that if more people chime in to this debate contrary to your position (once someone comments on the FAC), you'll be willing to budge. And if it means anything, Hag Sameach. -- tariqabjotu 06:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind wishes, and the same to you. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The population of Jerusalem is not a humanities question, that would be answered by references to prose pieces. It's basically a scientific question; I don't see why we need anything other than the Israeli census. Now, if we also want to make the point that West Jerusalem even by itself would be Israel's largest city, that's fine — surely there would be census figures covering this topic as well.--Pharos 05:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

You might not see it, but others are adamant about these things. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, this is like quoting five different articles from popular science magazines to support the contention that the Earth is round. I think we have to look at this issue outside of the "controversy" context. There is no controversy among reasonable people on the population size of Jerusalem, only an unrelated dispute about who should control the city or this or that part of the city. As long as we note the territorial disputes, and carefully delineate the definition of Jerusalem as used in the Israeli census, the rest is superfluous.--Pharos 05:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

But there is a dispute about whether Jerusalem is Israel's largest city. In fact, there was a two-month dispute about it, in which an editor was constantly reverting any reference to this simple fact, so I'm not sure how you can claim there is "no dispute" about it. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. -- tariqabjotu 13:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It is beneficial, however, to retain whatever historical demographic fragments provided in lengthy and poorly-formatted references. We just need to be creative about reintegrating the information, with minimal verbose, merging or splitting the notes, etc. El_C 17:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand you. Could you rephrase your statement? -- tariqabjotu 17:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had bad experiences on other contentious articles that saw previously ironed-out POV issues surface again and again because of attempts to clean up the referencing. Tewfik^Talk 19:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, but I have to say I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of "defensive" footnotes, that exist only to ward off possible future editors with unreasonable arguments. Our primary goal should be maximum accuracy and comprehensibility for the ordinary reader, and over-referencing I think detracts from comprehensibility. If these notes are really necessary to iron out possible future arguments, couldn't we just keep them in some special place on the talk page?--Pharos 20:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

No, because people don't read Talk: pages. Witness the fact that the discussion about whether or not Jerusalem is Israel's capital has been debated for 3 solid years now, on these Talk: pages, each new discussion ignoring all previous discussions. As another example, look at the big pinkish/red box at the top of Talk:Antisemitism. Does that have any impact on people who make edits like this? No, it happens at least once a week. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)