Talk:Jersey Girls

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I have removed They have each received millions of dollars in settlement moneys from the 9/11 survivors fund. If someone can cite a valid source for that information, I would be more than happy to reintroduce that sentence into the article. Thanks, Sango123 July 1, 2005 01:49 (UTC)

From a United States Department of Justice press release (11/25/2003):

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/November/03_civ_648.htm

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Claims for the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund must be filed by December 22, less than 4 weeks from now, Kenneth R. Feinberg, the Fund’s Special Master announced today. Those eligible include family members of the 2,976 who died and those individuals who were injured as a result of the terrorist attacks.

The Fund, enacted by Congress and signed into law by President Bush on September 24, 2001, has received to date more than 3,583 claims (including 1,876 claims received from families of deceased victims representing almost two-thirds of eligible claimants) and paid out more than $1.2 billion, Feinberg announced today. The Special Master anticipates that nearly 90% of the families who lost family members will file before December 22 with the Fund.

The average amount of compensation paid to date to the families of those who died on September 11 is $1.7 million. Individual compensation amounts have ranged from $250,000 to $6.9 million.

How come 3 of them have an article and 1 doesnt? --*kate 22:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You (or anyone) are free to start an article if you want, by editing this page: Mindy Kleinberg
George100 09:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Yea, but do the first three have some sort of superiority or signifigance to Kleinberg? I'm just not sure. --*kate 19:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it. --George100 05:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Instrumental claim

Cut from intro:

They were instrumental in the creation of the 9/11 Commission.

Who says? I found no reference to them in our 9/11 Commission article. --Uncle Ed 21:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Answering my own question:

  • Mindy Kleinberg, Kristen Breitweiser, Patty Casazza and Lori Van Auken were widowed by the September 11 terrorist attacks. The four came together as they sought answers and explanations for the tragedy. In their perseverance they helped push for the establishment of an independent commission to investigate 9/11, a request Congress fulfilled last fall. [1]

Okay, we got "helped push for" but does that mean "instrumental"? --Uncle Ed 21:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

We need a lot more information here. Right now the Ann Coulter section is the biggest part of the page! Without the Jersey girls, there likely would have been no 9/11 Commission; certainly not an independent one. They were definitely instrumental in Kissinger's decision not to head the Commission, which did wonders for its credibility. It's on my watchlist now; I'll get around to adding some research at some point soon. But it's pretty embarrassing to have the Coulter section be the main thing on this article.--csloat 22:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] question

are there more than four now?

[edit] Origin of name?

I don't know if anyone here was aware, but the term "Jersey Girl" can be considered a derogatory term (it carries connotations of overprivilege and arrogance). Wikipedia must not engage in structural bias by assisting efforts to apply negative terminology. I'm aware that the terminology is in widespread use. What is important is noting, preferably in the intro, that the terminology has been applied by others and is not an original invention of Wikipedia. Kasreyn 02:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have reworded the intro accordingly, to clarify that the terminology is in widespread use by the public, justifying its inclusion in this project. Kasreyn 02:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


--Jessn050 20:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)== I found where the term Jersey Girls came from. I found reference to the orgin of the name in an article titled, "9/11 Widows Skillfully Applied the Power of a Question: Why?" by Sheryl Gay Stolberg, and it apparently ran in the New York times on April 1, 2004.

They were originally known as "just four moms from New Jersey". Later their became known as The Jersey girls (the nickname, which distinguishes the women from their New York and Connecticut counterparts, was popularized in song by Bruce Springsteen). And personally, if your going to use quotes from Ann Coulter book, you ought to use it in context or at least in the same order they are stated in the book. I would think that at least then, it wouldn't seem to be against either side of 'political' debate. Just my unprovoked thoughts on that.:) Anyway, thank you for listening.

[edit] Not used as an insult?

Really? Guettarda 12:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it is not. An article (very sympathetic to them, I might add) on commondreams.org declares the women are referred to by that moniker in Washington, D.C., and uses it to identify them a few times. [2] If you can find any evidence to the contrary, do share. Lawyer2b 17:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
That could be. Or, it could be that commondreams has been suckered into a reframe. Both parties are constantly trying to bias discussion with politicized terminology which have the effect of biasing discussion in their favor. Depending on the origination of the term, it could be simply an innocent reference to the foursome's state of origin, or an attempt at a slur which commondreams either failed to recognize, or went along with in order to get more Google hits. Kasreyn 23:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
My response will only be to point to Occam's razor. Lawyer2b 04:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Just remember, that's merely axiomatic advice for constructing arguments... in the real world, sometimes the more complicated answer is true.  ;) Kasreyn 05:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too much Coulter?

This article has a LOT of words on Ann Coulter's criticism of the Jersey Girls. Many if not most of them are repeated in the article on Ann Coulter. IMHO, this article, the one on the Jersey Girls, should mention Coulter's criticism and possibly quote it, then refer people to the Ann Coulter article for more detail. Lou Sander 02:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree that there is too much Coulter. Almost half the article is made up of comments (and criticism of those comments) from one person outside the group that is the subject of the article. Rob Banzai 15:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I propose that we let a few days pass to see if there are any more comments. Then, if nobody has disagreed, let's make the Coulter section a lot smaller. Lou Sander 15:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If that's going to be removed, it needs a "see also" section header to direct to the Godless page. Note that the book signing incident is no longer in wikipedia. --George100 05:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Without Coulter, there would be no "Jersey Girls". Leave her words intact. --Kurrgo master of planet x 18:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by that. She would seem to be peripheral to the subject. Rob Banzai 15:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
That leads us to an even more important question: who first called them that, anyway? I think it would be very notable to mention whoever it was that gave birth to this gem of wit. *sarcasm* Was it a TV pundit, a newspaper, Coulter's Godless book, or what? Does anyone know? Kasreyn 03:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
They were called that long before that attention whore said a word about them. And they were well known by people following post 9/11 events closely. Anyone who thinks Coulter invented the Jersey Girls has not been paying attention. We definitely need more informaiton here, and if Coulter's comments are going to be here they should not be like this, with no discussion or critique. Her comments were by far the stupidest things ever said about the Jersey Girls yet there is not a single critique of her comments here; as if they were simple truths. Pretty wretched. As I said above, I'll do some research and try to address this in the coming weeks.--csloat 22:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This may be hard to imagine for some, but the name Ann Coulter hardly rings a bell to me -- but then, I'm Dutch. I wonder why her criticism should be part of the article at all, as it seems to consist solely of below-the-belt attacks and insinuations without a shred of evidence. Shouting down these widows just because they ask questions -- it's not a pretty sight. "She would seem to be peripheral to the subject," wrote Rob Banzai two months ago. This has not been seriously challenged, yet the Coulter section is still there. Why? GdB 22:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If the name "Ann Coulter" doesn't mean much to you, there's not much I can say, except this: I'm not going to determine which Dutch public figures are important, and which are not, since I'm not familiar with them. You might do likewise.
The fact is, the Coulter section has been cut down in size significantly, and should definitely stay where it is. -George100 09:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is about the Jersey Girls, not about Coulter. She has her own page and we can put that stuff there. I think a sentence mentioning that the Jersey Girls were attacked by Coulter and that some controversy resulted is fine, but an entire section? Come on. Especially the way it was stated as if Coulter's comments were true! The ensuing controversy was not about the Jersey Girls - who pretty much emerged unscathed by the attention - but rather about Coulter and how mean-spirited and sensationalistic she is. No question about it that her publicist played up that passage in the book in order to sell more of them. Anyway, I deleted the section; someone can replace it with a sentence that simply states that Coulter made unprecedented attacks on their character in her book and some controversy ensued.--csloat 01:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, Coulter's remarks are extremely pertinent to the Jersey Girls' notability. If I ever heard of the se people before by that name, I had totally forgotten before they were mentioned by Coulter. I just vaguely remember that there was a small vocal group of people using their victimhood to make political points. I don't want to get involved in editing this controversial article, but IMHO it's whitewashing their story to remove Coulter's bombastic but mostly accurate criticism of them. Maybe take out the bombast, but retain the criticisms. Lou Sander 11:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you weren't paying attention; they have been in the news long before coulter got to them. They were not "using their victimhood to make political points"; they were instrumental in getting the 9/11 Commission off the ground. Because of them, Henry Kissinger was not the head of that Commission. There is nothing at all "accurate" about Coulter's criticism; it is a hysterical personal attack. But that is neither here nor there - I am fine keeping a line about Coulter in here, but an entire section, with the full quote, and stated as if it were truth, is absolutely ludicrous and POV-pushing.--csloat 18:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey George, can we hear your comments on the Coulter edits here? I have explained my position above and you have not responded. It was removed because it is an unnecessary diatribe. Please see WP:BLP regarding the items that belong on this page. Coulter's comments are a vicious personal attack. I don't have a problem with it being mentioned here, as I have said, so please do not continue to accuse me of "censorship" (how one can "censor" comments that have already so much airplay is beyond me). I don't have a problem with a couple sentences noting that Coulter launched a hysterical attack on the Jersey Girls because her publicist thought it might sell more books. But we need not quote every single word she has uttered about them here, especially not without some response. As it is, the section seems to have been inserted purely to turn this article into a hit piece against its subject. That is specifically disallowed under WP:BLP, even when the comments are properly sourced. So, you think Coulter should be mentioned here, no problem; take a few minutes and write a couple sentences indicating that Coulter made these comments and mentioning the controversy the comments drew. Another sentence quoting someone responding to the comments would help the NPOV issue as well.--csloat 06:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion vote / film featuring Jersey Girls

Please vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/9/11: Press for Truth. Badagnani 21:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Truth" Movement template

The {{911tm}} template seems inappropriate. I'm personally not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, but the article strongly implies they were pursuing the actual truth, not the conspiracy theory misinformation. Peter Grey 23:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree - that template is bogus. The "truth movement" should not be collapsed with the conspiracy theories like that; this has nothing to do with controlled demolition of bldg 7 or with "in plane sight" or any of that other crap. I'll remove the template for now; someone should separate it into different templates and then it might perhaps be relevant.--csloat 19:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This question has been brought up on the Template:911tm talk page; if a connection cannot be verified the template will be amended, and excluded from this article. Peter Grey 04:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
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