Talk:Jennifer Government: NationStates

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This article was nominated for deletion on February 20, 2007. The result of the discussion was speedy keep due to withdrawn nomination.

Contents 1 Main 2 Regional Forums 3 Opinions 4 Edits 5 Clean-up? 6 Empire of Attica 6.1 VfD:Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Empire_of_Attica 7 NSEconomy 8 ES/PF edits 9 criticism 10 Recent controversy section 11 Removal of Wikiperiands who play NationStates category 12 KKK / Neo-Nazi Recruitment? 13 External Links 14 MMOG 15 Referencing 16 Information deleted by Chacor: variables, government departments, and industry types 16.1 Variables 16.2 Government departments 16.3 Industry types 17 "See Also" links

[edit] Main

The bloody UN classifications link is down again. Anyone got a mirror? --Myrth

http://ns.goobergunch.net/nsmap.jpg has the image portion - don't know where we can get the textual portion. --Goobergunch 20:59, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the text portion of the image is lost to the sands of time. I found Distributed Thought's original thread, but I'm not seeing anything about the text that went with the image. IIRC, however, losing the text isn't a big loss as it was a numerical break-down of each style, which is woefully out of date now (thread's from May 11th, 2003). I'll include a link to the thread anyway: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=274695&page=1&pp=20 -tMGH August 6th, 2005

[edit] Regional Forums

Should there really be links to regional forums here? There are so many regions in NationStates that if we start linking regional forums, there's really no point at which we'd stop. --Goobergunch 18:31, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

............................... Hey, please dont delete this article! Im a dedicated nationstateser, but my stupid computer can only access it thru the links on the article, for some reason. If this article goes, I CANT ACCESS NS! So please dont delete it, ok?

SUAR, February 19th ................................

Personally, I'm opposed to including regional forums here, but at the same time, I would like to advertise them somehow. GulDan 21:27, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

I think that, at least Europe and the Meritocracy (and possibly the Heartland) are worth mentioning, due to the amount of dedication and effort put there, which surpasses any other regions. I'm an Europe player, so I added European Affairs. I was going to add the Meritocracy, but didn't know if I needed any special authorization or not. I don't want to have copyright or licence problems.MiguelFC 22:12, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a link to my thread in Gameplay with all the links to the regional forums? Would save cluttering up this page with external links. Myrth 02:39, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301112 List of Regional Websites/Forums] sounds good to me, but I'd like to see it updated with all of the links currently on there so people can't whine about their links being lost. --Goobergunch 18:59, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll update that thread then we can start a policy of clearing them off as we see them. --Myrth 00:34, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've cleared the ASE and TPC links because it's IMHO rather silly to include links to NationStates region pages under "External Links". I have added an RLA link, mainly to avoid EuroSoviets and Blackbird from smiting me.  ;)  :In the League of NationStates which I'm setting up, I'm going to post a very long and comprehensive list of regional forums and websites that hopefully we can just link to and remove the ever-growing list of websites under "External Links". --Goobergunch 23:42, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Opinions

NationStates players -- please don't post your opinions about the NationStates UN or other aspects of the game in the entry. Thanks.

[edit] Edits

• I've added to the page. William S. 00:34, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• I moved the paragraph about joining the UN up before the stuff about the invaders/defenders to make the description more logical of the game.-A
• I added two more links on Economy and Civil Rights to a dictionary site, overkill but it'll let you looked more informed (Maxen)

[edit] Clean-up?

• I think this article is in need of a bit of a clean-up. For one, the layout is rather ugly and it just looks like a huge essay. It should probably be broken up a bit. Second thing is there is quite a few unnecessary references to in-game groups that aren't particularly consequential to the article. I'm really not any sort of wiki-veteran, but I thought I'd throw this out for discussion.

Nah, I like it, maybe I'm already a little biased since I play it, maybe some more pictures, but it's really nice and straight-forward, which really repiclates the game a lot, if you want some more in depth visit NS's Wiki.

[edit] Empire of Attica

[edit] VfD:Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Empire_of_Attica

Well-written article - however, it's about a nation in the NationStates online game. A single nation in the NationStates game is not notable, especially given the VfD precedent of Europe. I've copied the article to NSwiki. --Goobergunch 01:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Agree, Delete. Impressively written but the precedent speaks for itself. Ian Pugh 02:32, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge and redirect. I suspect the latter is more effort than our friendly volunteers would like to give, so I'm left with delete. By now everyone probably knows how I feel about breakouts of things not known outside of their master topos. Geogre 04:23, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Created by the same editor responsible for Imperial Republic of America and American Imperial Party - both also on VfD. 'nuff said. Delete.--Gene_poole 05:53, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Only of any relevance whatsoever within the NationStates game. Average Earthman 08:51, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Move to JnanaBase. Npc 12:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Fancruft. --Improv 15:39, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. NeoJustin 15:52, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. More NationStates nonsense. Should I write an article about MY NationStates nation? RickK 19:13, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. It's a grand effort, but I'm going to have to go with Ian on this one, too. Inky 02:05, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Nonsense--[[User:Plato|Comrade Nick @)---^--]] 06:16, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Merge into NationStates and redirect there. probably need to cut it down to size 132.205.15.4 22:57, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. I agree with Ian Pugh. --queso man 01:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NSEconomy

I would say that the NSEconomy link is somewhat unnecessary, and shows a specific bias. All of the other links are either directly affiliated with Nationstates, or are providing a service that does not exist anywhere else. NSEconomy not only does not fill a niche, the formulas behind it were plagiarized. I do not ask for that work to be linked to, only that this nonessential, and biased(however unintentional) link should be removed.

While it may or may not be removed, I've added a small bit about the taking of code for NSEconomy from The Meritocracy.

Have removed it, considering it really has no place in the article's external links - which should only link to NationStates and related stuff (wiki, forums)... -- NSLE | Talk 09:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ES/PF edits

The paragraphs ES/PF are adding read as follows:

A further controversy entails some of the bans that have been carried out by the moderators. Some are seen as biased and unfair, and many view the life banning of Eire Shamrock/Prodigal Fenian as a prime example of this. The moderators, much like the war criminals at Nuremberg, claim they were just doing their job. On the other hand, popular sentiment around the Nationstates world see Eire Shamrock/Prodigal Fenian as a legend and one of the most, if not the most, colorful folk hero type players in the games history.

Several mass petitions asking for a general amnesty of banned users has been met with silence by the moderators, prompting criticism that their approach to justice is exceedingly harsh.

The general commentary I get from NationStates players when discussing this are loud groans. The "popular sentiment" in the NS world is just not there, as most people believe that ES/PF is just generally annoying. I've never seen these alleged mass petitions either. --Goobergunch|? 23:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Ahem, first of all, it's clear that Goobergunch has a problem with ES/PF. I'm a longtime friend and ally of PF, and please check the NSwiki discussion for ES/PF. Goobergunch is deeply personally involved with ES/PF as can be seen by all of his comments. There are three of more of us that edit PF/ES pages. Why? Because we are all in the same boat as he is.

The "general commentary" remark by Goobergunch, as well as his other remarks show his deep POV in the issue, and has also on the NSWiki ES/PF discussion site shown that he is not impartial when it comes to this matter.

One check of the many threads on the NS forums about the ES/PF deletions show it is controversial. Shame on you Goobergunch, stop the vendetta now. You are being shabby on this issue, and it hurts your fine reputation on wikipedia with other subjects. Celtic1

Celtic, I'm sorry, but number of threads has no indication on importance. Now, the simple fact is, ES/PF has never attained the significance of say, an Amerigo, whose name echoes two years after the Amerigan Slaver War. Now, there are a lot of "controversial" things, most of which are much more controversial than this ES/PF thing that I, and in essence, everyone I have dealt with thus far in NS have heard of. Now, everyone I have dealt with is quite a lot, so unless you really show me numbers of significance- and I mean several tens of thousands- then I do not believe this has any merit on the actual Wikipedia. If it's so important to you, take it to NSWiki: most people on Wiki proper don't really give a damn about one nation out of 110,000 on NationStates. No matter what. -Tib/USF

That's not true Tib, ES/PF's name still resounds in NS, just look up the forums! People are still talking about his deletion.

Most people in NS that have played the game for a long time have heard of ES/PF. All one needs to do is a search of Eire Shamrock, ES/pf, or whatever on the Nationstates forum to see the controversy is huge, and there are hundreds of posts about it. There are more recent posts about ES/PF than Amerigo as well! I did not say Amerigo should not be included -- he should as well, so get to it! As for your final comment, shows you have a personal bias. Of course people care about nations such as ES/PF, Franco's Spain, and Amerigo. Celtic1

Look, I have no bias. I have no idea who you are. All I'm asking for is a list of support of 10% of the nations of NS. If it's important enough to be posted here, it should at least affect that many people- if not more. -Tib/USF

Problem solved -- I understand your point, and saw the error. I've posted this under a seperate heading, that hopefully others will expand on. Users like yourself can include Amerigo and others that have had controversy with the mods. I see your point now on how this one nation should not be under the same controversy umbrella as the ADL and others. That was a good call Tib, thanks for explaining it rationally. It's a great idea to have a seperate category for moderation controversy as its an important subject with many interesting stories to be told. cheers, :) Celtic1

I'm not seeing any threads on the NS forums concerning ES/PF. From what I've seen on this and in other places, ES/PF and his supporters just keep putting this sort of thing up wherever there's any mention of NS and generally cause nothing but grief to everyone. Besides, Celtic1, your NPOV is obvious from comparing moderators to Nuremberg defendants. War crimes and the deletion of ES/PF's (your?) nations are hardly comparable. I'm editing out the ES/PF reference (apparently again) because the ES/PF banning was no more important in the larger scheme of things than the banning of any other user and Wikipedia does not exist for the extention of personal vendettas. --165.134.195.86 00:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

First, you were brought in by Goobergunch, as he stated he would bring a mod here from NS to back his biased vendetta. Second, all you need to do is a simple search of the NS forums and there are loads of ES/PF discussions there.

I am putting back in the ES/PF reference as it is an example -- and you can put in whomever else you feel, like the Unironed Shirt and others. Or the Reichsprotektor scandal in Germany, Amerigo, or whatever you feel like. As for the nuremberg comment, it was not a comparison, but a point of reference as the mods have the same answer as those in the Nuremberg trials -- ie. they were following orders and doing things by the book without taking into account many other human factors. Many people on the forums support the mods, you are correct, because they want to make friends with the mods and hopefully be one someday. Celtic1

I distinctly recall getting a telegram in December 2003 informing me that I would never become a NationStates moderator. I don't think that's changed. More when it's not 12:22 AM. --Goobergunch|? 07:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

That's an interesting telegram to get -- so a mod told you that you would NEVER be a mod? Under what circumstances? Wow! Celtic1

Celtic1, regarding your above comments... that's not what I said. What I was saying is that the ES/PF thing doesn't belong on Wikipedia because it does not affect the majority of gamers as a whole. Because this is Wikipedia and not NSWiki, the space should be used in a much more conservative fashion. If this controversy is really as big as you claim it to be, keep it as a major article on NSWiki. Do whatever you want, really- just not here. -Tib/USF

Hmmm, has he been blocked yet ? This United State 07:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] criticism

what about adding to the criticism section the "alledged" moderator corruption? --Phil 13:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

"Moderator corruption"? What on earth is that? I've never come across such allegations in the fora. --Aridd 14 November 2005

Of course you haven't read about it in the fora, as the mods delete and censor all those that bring their abuses to light. There are thousands of tales of moderator misdeeds and violations. That is the main problem with the game for most people, the insane mods! --anon

I must agree. talk to any member secretly and they'll most likely confide that there is indeed an abuse of powers. --Phil 08:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding new section "Moderator Abuses": As an admin of NationStates, I've seen perhaps two dozen allegations of moderator abuse out of a playerbase of 1.5 million accounts over three years. I think it's quite mischevious to say "many players" think there's abuse. Especially since this section is largely non-factual: it doesn't say who these players are or reference even one specific incident, nor am I aware of "many... spinoff forums of ex-players" generated by "moderator abuse;" I can think of only two that might be considered in that category, each with only a handful of ex-players. --violetine 17 December 2005.

Hi [violet], I do have one request of you, could you sign your talk posts with four tildes (~~~~)? ;) Cheers. NSLE _(T+C+CVU) 07:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent controversy section

I'm removing the section "Recent Controversy" because it's neither recent nor controversial. It was a one-man online campaign of the kind that NationStates cops every couple of months from politically-motivated players. I can understand if this was a more general discussion of NationStates criticisms, but as it stands it's nothing more than an attempt to manufacture an issue out of nothing. --violetine 13 December 2005.

I approve. The section was apparently written by a biased party, with weasel wording and lack of citations masking the manufactured story; I would have removed it myself but I'm not active in NS anymore and didn't have any firsthand knowledge of the current situation. --DDerby-(talk) 07:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Wikiperiands who play NationStates category

Did anyone else have a problem with this article also being in Category:Wikipedians who play NationStates? As the point of the category is to populate it, the best place to begin is to put the main article in the category.

Any problems with that?

Lady Aleena 20:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

"NationStates" can hardly be described as a Wikipedian, given that it's hard for a website to be a Wikipedia user. I would oppose placing articles in categories aimed at the User namespace. --Goobergunch|? 21:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Goobergunch. You can mention the article on the category page, and perhaps place a notice at the top of this talk page regarding the category. But the article does not belong in a category of Wikipedians. — Knowledge Seeker দ 22:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I did what you suggested Knowledge Seeker. What do you think? Lady Aleena 22:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I touched it up a bit. Feel free to revert it or further modify it if you like. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KKK / Neo-Nazi Recruitment?

A citation is needed on the statement regarding this game and KKK/Neo-Nazi recruitment. -- MisterHand 15:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed the whole 'controversy' section, since there's no evidence presented that there is any more significant controvesy than you'd find as background noise in any other website. Or, for that matter, any sources whatsoever. The KKK section has already been removed at least once before[1] and see "criticism" above for a response by one of the Nationstates admins.Hrimfaxi 08:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You can accuse any medium of promoting XXX recruitment. Mathiastck 16:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Not to be elitist, but is a link to a wiki with a single page (for a single nation) really a valid use of the External Links section? The NSWiki has numerous articles and lots of information. At the moment, WikiStates is empty. I've removed the link pending discussion. GulDan 02:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Support and agree. – Chacor 08:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MMOG

Shouldn't this be listed as a massively multiplayer game in category? Lord of Light 21:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, probably. CP/M ^comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 10:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Referencing

Until this afternoon, the page was listed in the "Articles lacking citation" (or whatever it's called) category... I threw in a rather large amount of citations to the news page on NS, the Jolt forums, and NSWiki, and also updated some of the information. If anyone adds anything to the page, please remember to use the <ref>Reference tags</ref> so we don't get shoved in there again. 'Tis rather embarrassing. On a similar topic, if anyone knows of any other places to reference the information we've got on here, add that in too - half of the citations I added are going to the News Archive on NS itself, it'd be good if we could get some third party info in there if possible. Hersfold 03:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I only found one neutral news source on Nationstates: http://www.straight.com/article-68225/winds-snow-lead-to-perfect-storm-of-sites It mentions Nationstates in the second to last paragraph. Don't know if you want to use it.

[edit] Information deleted by Chacor: variables, government departments, and industry types

Chacor deleted the following information that I added to the article:

[edit] Variables

A nation has many different variables that describe it, which are not chosen directly by the player (in contrast with the nation name, national motto, national currency, and national animal). A person's decisions on the issues effect most of those variables. There are the variables of population and size, which are not effected by the player's decisions on the issues, but are only the result of the passage of time. The variables that are effected by the player's decisions on the issues are: civil rights, economy, political freedoms, crime, government corruption, social equality, income tax percentage (ranges from 'unheard of' to 100%), type of income tax percentage (flat or graded), strength of 16 different industries, and funding for 10 different government departments. The first 3 of those variables determine the country's UN classification as 1 of 27 government types. (source = dozens of nation profiles, and daily nation rankings based upon variables)

[edit] Government departments

There are many different government departments, and a nation can specialize in funding up to 3 of them. What government departments a country specializes in is not decided directly by the player, but is determined by hidden variables in the game's program, but the effect of one's decisions on the government departments is relatively obvious. There are 10 government departments total, which are: Law & Order, Defense, Commerce, Environment, Public Transport, Education, Social Welfare, Healthcare, Social Equality, and Religion & Spirituality. (source = dozens of nation profiles)

[edit] Industry types

In Nation States, there are many different private industries, and a country may specialize in up to 3 of them, although very socialist countries have none. What industries a country specializes in is not decided by the player, but is determined by hidden variables in the game's program. The industries range from serious to comically trivial or primitive. There are 16 total, which are: automobile manufacturing, arms manufacturing, uranium mining, information technology, trout farming, beef-based agriculture, retail, book publishing, soda sales, pizza delivery, basket weaving, furniture restoration, cheese exports, woodchip exports, door-to-door insurance sales, and gambling. (source = dozens of nation profiles)

Chacor deleted that information on the grounds that it is not attributed to the word of a specific person or persons. The information is certainly important. If anyone can find attribution for this information, then please restore it to the article.

MitchConnor1 04:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The onus is on YOU to find the attribution, not anyone else. Do not re-add this info without sources. – Chacor 05:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You can prove this info if you play the game yourself. I don't think there's any other way to prove. Canadianshoper 05:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do play it, and have been since January 2003. However, Wikipedia policy would require reliable sources to back this up, so it cannot be added unless it's cited. – Chacor 05:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we would need to cite the game itself. Whee else would this be. Canadianshoper 06:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "See Also" links

Is there a reason for having a link to Micronation in the See Also section? It seems completely unrelated to me... Please comment. --Woodgreener 20:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)