Talk:Jedwabne pogrom

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Contents 1 What happened to the page? 2 Miscellaneous 3 the movies 4 Categories 5 Requested move 6 Some explanations 7 Missing points 8 Germans were then totally uninterested in inciting, let alone supervising pogroms 9 Non-Jewish Poles? 10 'Directly'?

[edit] What happened to the page?

It could be just me, but when I click on the link for the article it says that Wikipedia has no page for it, even though its history, its talk page and even all its revisions have remained, and you can even "restore" the article by clicking the "start the Jedwabne Pogrom article" link. I think there may be a glitch in the database.-RomeW 08:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I used to have the same problem. I took the last version of the article, pressed "save", and here it is. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't do anything because I worried, "what if it was deleted"? -RomeW 09:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous

Please do not remove external links before discussing the reasons here. --Ttyre 14:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What should be linked to

  1. Official sites should be added to the page of any organization, person, or other entity that has an official site.
  2. Sites that have been cited or used as references in the creation of a text. 
  3. If a book or other text that is the subject of an article exists somewhere on the Internet it should be linked to.
  4. On articles with multiple Points of View, a link to sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. 
  5. High content pages that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. 

So which is it? --Denis Diderot 16:09, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How about #4? --Ttyre 19:23, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. The main POVs discussed in the text are those of Gross, Strzembosz and the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej. Including Finkelstein in the main text doesn't work either. He is hardly notable on this topic. (He is a political theorist mainly known for his controversial opinions about some Jewish organizations.) Finally, under #4 there must be balance and all links should be explained with the POV indicated. --Denis Diderot 20:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, I have moved Finkelstein comment on Gross' book to his page. Other ext. link The Jedwabne Tragedy already contains article in question. --Ttyre 20:47, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, good solution, no information lost --Denis Diderot 11:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the main article the following is untrue: For many years, it was assumed that the atrocity had been committed by German Einzatsgruppen, but in 2001 the Polish-American historian Jan Tomasz Gross published a detailed study of the event, Neighbors, where he described it as a pogrom. In fact, the alleged collaboration of a number of Polish citizens with Germans and their complicity in the Jedwabne massacre was investigated more than half century before Gross made his "discovery". The investigation was started on Feb. 24th 1948, and in January 1949 arrests and interrogations begun. Subsequently, 21 people were charged and a number of them were convicted (May 17th 1949, one death sentence, later commuted, and a number of long prison terms). The IPN (Institute of National Rememberance) report, in Polish: http://www.ipn.gov.pl/jedwabne_postanowienie.pdf The IPN investigation, prompted by the publication of Jan Gross' Neighbors, and concluded in 2003, has not resulted with charging any other suspects. IMO this fact downgrades the Gross' book from a major, drastic discovery, to merely a politically motivated hype. Of course, this is just my private opinion. Gumisie 28 Aug 2005

• Gross actually refers to documentation of possible Polish investigation of atrocities committed by Poles against Jews shortly after the end of the war, but points out that these crimes were quickly covered up or ignored in trials.
  • I don't think so. The communists had no interest in covering up the jedwabne massacre, but they did not have any interest in making it remembered either. There were a lot of trials during the time of stalinist regime in Poland and it is quiet plausible that the trials of the murderers from Jedwabne were quickly forgotten. Mieciu K 16:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the movies

"For many years, it was assumed that the atrocity had been committed by German Einzatsgruppen, but in 2001 the Polish-American historian Jan Tomasz Gross published a detailed study of the event, where he described it as a typical pogrom. Gross concluded that the approximately 1,600 jews in the village were clubbed, drowned, gutted, and burned to death by their Polish neighbors without any assistance from the Germans." - is seems that Gross was not the one who revailed the truth about Jedwabne - according to Agnieszka Arnold, who (in 1997) had been working on a documentary about the atrocity ("Where is my older brother Cain?"; "Neighbors") the inhibitants of Jedwabne wanted to tell the truth and told her the truth about the massacre; cf. an interview with Arnold, "Liczenie szkieletów", in Polish only, unfortunately.

• Only some of the inhabitants of Jedwabne wanted to tell the truth. You have to remember that this is the only known case of mass murder commited by the "free" (and not communists) poles in modern history. The release of this information was a big problem for the polish right-wing parties which based on the presumtion of a "black and white world" and "Polish innocence". So the people who tried to make this information public were publicly, intensivly and aggresivly critisised by the polish right-wingers. That is why the movies by Agnieszka Arnold were held back (probably by the makers themselves) for fear of problems. Mieciu K 14:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

This article is over-categorised. It's under Holocaust, which is under WWII/WWII Crimes/Genocides. This article should not be under those three categories. --CDN99 15:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Why is it at Jedwabne Pogrom and not Jedwabne pogrom? Is the capital letter really necessary? Halibutt 23:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks nicer with both words capitalized than just the first one.-RomeW 00:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the event does not seem to fit into any of the categories listed at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters). Halibutt 01:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say we don't need it capitalized. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 12:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some explanations

Official statements of Polish IPN (Institute for National Remembrance) tell about 300 killed Jews and 40 Poles taking part in the massacre inspired and led by German soldiers.

The facts are: Germans were then totally uninterested in inciting, let alone supervising pogroms (massacres of Jews). In '41 the Holocaust hadn't really begun but there were many incidents of Germans killing Jews in Poland. The Germans never needed or wished Polish help other than turning hiding Jews to the SS.

There were more than 1600 Jews then in Jedwabne, most of them disappeared that day, yet IPN claims that only about 300 were killed. What happened to others? If 1300 people fled that day from Jedwabne at least some of them should have survived or at least left some traces of their later lives, but no.

And the most important - it is obvious that 40 well trained people equipped with guns can force 300 people into a barn but it is just impossible that 40 peasants and craftsmen armed with axes, sledgehammers or knives could do the same. But the Poles of Jedwabne were peasants and craftsmen indeed and by no means trained to control crowds. So it's just incredible that there were only 40 people doing the killing.

> some of them did survived. You should read a little more than wikipage. "It should be noted that before the people were taken away from the market, individual murders had been committed. These killings were mentioned, among others, by the victim, Awigdor Kochaw, who at that time was at the market place."

• Explanation to what happened with Jedwabne Jews not killed on July 10, 1941 could be found in Marek Jan Chodakiewicz book The Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941 Before, During and After. The following is an exempt from the book's review [[1]]: Some time ago Jan Tomasz Gross wrote that the one, who claims that in that crime "only" 300-400 Jews were murdered, would have to explain what happened to all other Jews from Jedwabne. Given Chodakiewicz's work Gross's postulate can be met. The author cites demographic data from the pre-war period and the time of Soviet occupation. He established that during the thirties the population of Jedwabne was 2,500, including about 1,200 Jews. In 1939 this number fell to about 1,000. From the census carried out by the Soviets in September 1940 follows that during that time 562 Jews lived in Jedwabne. The reason for the decrease in the number of Jewish inhabitants can be explained by migration (the escape from the Germans of about one hundred Jews in September 1939, the migration of 200 to Bialystok, the deportation of 10 to Soviet gulags and the possible incorporation of about 100 into the Red Army). In addition, according to the testimony of Rywka Fogel, about 150 Jews managed to avoid the massacre of July 10th, 1941; those Jews later returned to Jedwabne and lived in the local ghetto (they were saved only temporarily - until the liquidation of the ghetto); some of the saved managed to hide. --Ttyre 13:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing points

• Many (all living now) criminals were imprisoned, interrogated (beating was a standard procedure at that time), sentenced and served their terms. The leader perished during the war, his wife has been probably murdered. There are two questions:
  • they were punished as collaborators, not as murderers - it was typical for that time;
  • was the punishment just - comparing to sentences in Germany - yes.

• The documents were known to many historians, including the Jewish Historical Institute and Gross himself. The history of Łomża region wasn't an important subject in Poland. Prof. Tomasz Strzembosz visited the region frequently but asked about anti-Soviet resistance. He probably admitted shortly before his death, that he shouldn't had believed the local people.

• The number 1600 of Jews in Jedwabne in 1941 is higly unprobable. Some Jews (Beker) emigrated shortly before the war. There was the September 1939 campaign, during which many Jewish soldiers died. Many people emigrated or were deported to the "real" Soviet Union 1939-1941. Even if there were 1600 Jews, many of them survived the pogrom in or outside Jedwabne and were murdered by the Germans. It would be good to reconstruct the list of all Jedwabne Jews. As far as I know the existing list is very short. If you have a better one...

• Did't Gross in his book take statment from a woman from Jedwabne ? How is this possible if everyone was killed during this pogrom ? [Comment made by 85.222.21.109]

• The crime was one of the series from Latvia to Moldova. I have the impression that Jedwabne is more "cool", that the other places. Why? Because Poland was the only anti-German state in the region?

• Some people ask - where were the local priests during the pogrom. I know a partial answer - the junior one (pl. wikary) has been imprisoned and murdered by the Soviets.

Xx236 09:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice please read these and assess whether there are any similarities to what occured in Jedwabne, particularly how people were killed, by whom and why.

[edit] Germans were then totally uninterested in inciting, let alone supervising pogroms

The "Warsaw Voice" claims someting other: http://www.warsawvoice.pl/archiwum.phtml/1583/ Xx236 09:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Jewish Poles?

In the lead, there is an accusation that Volksdeutsche, and Non-Jewish Poles were mostly (sic) responsible for this atrocity. I'm not sure which is the bigger joke, that German settlers were responsible, or that Jews were not responsible. What German settlers? Dr. Dan 19:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I intend to delete the incorrect information concerning "Non-Jewish Poles" and Volksdeutsche, unless this can be substantiated. Dr. Dan 17:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Where do you see "German settlers" there ? --Lysy^talk 13:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Forgetting the semantics of what Volksdeutsche means, what is the basis for trying to pin the Jedwabne Massacre on Volksdeutsche and "non-Jewish Poles". Does anyone think "Jewish" Poles might have been the perpetrators? What's the basis for adding Volksdeutsche, other than to take the blame off of those who perpetrated the deed? Dr. Dan 14:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I cannot see how Volksdeutsche could make sense here. Whoever added this, maybe this was a result of semantic misunderstanding, as in Polish "Volksdeutsch" is nearly synonymous to "Nazi collaborationist". But was the Volksliste even implemented there in July 1941 ? (I don't know). I've checked both Gross and IPN and they both agree that the murderers were Poles, possibly with some assistance of Germans. Did not find any source mentioning Volksdeutsche. As for gentile Poles, I don't quite get your point. The mob consisted of gentiles as far as I know, and the article also agrees that these were "non-Jewish Poles", I don't see any contradiction here. --Lysy^talk 19:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not a matter of a contradiction or not. They murderers were Poles, and the issue is not if they were "non-Jewish" Poles, because no one thinks that the massacre was perpetrated by Jewish Poles. Nor does one expect to distinguish between Jewish Poles and non-Jewish Poles whenever the subject of Poles comes up, whether they are doing good things or bad things. Hopefully you now get the point. Dr. Dan 18:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Directly'?

I have removed the word 'directly' in the text "Although long assumed to have been a Nazi Einsatzgruppen operation, it is now known that the massacre was directly executed by a group of non-Jewish Poles in the area. Whether and how far the occupying German forces were involved remains the subject of dispute among historians.". Obviously, it is possible or even likely that the pogrom was directly executed by Poles - meaning that there was no German initiative whatsoever - but this is not known for a fact, as it is disputed by historians. The word 'directly' is at odds with the next sentence, which leaves the possibility of German involvement or initiative open. Including 'directly' does not add information but may lead to an inconsequence in the text, so I have removed it. Mcouzijn 10:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)