Talk:Jedediah Smith

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Contents

[edit] Alternative Dates of Birth

I have seen the following alternative dates of birth:

  • 24 Jan 1798
  • 24 Jun 1798
  • 6 Jan 1799
  • 16 Jan 1799.

Does anybody know for certain which (if any) of these is correct? Cheers JackofOz 06:13, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

The point about spelling seems silly. Was spelling regularized/standardized at this time? (65.80.50.227 07:39, 13 December 2005)

Spelling, not to mention literacy, was pretty haphazard. Even still, Jedediah is not only an accepted spelling, it is the most common spelling. It's not terribly relevant, however, since: a. the Hebrew Bible was written in Biblical Hebrew, with scant use of vowels (and no e's or i's to be found); b. Smith wasn't "named after Solomon's religious nickname" anyway — he was named after his father, Jedediah Smith, Sr.[1]; and c. who cares? I'll take it out. Squib 22:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Major problem

Under early life, it says "Cows are sweet" and later says "Girls Girls Girls"—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.50.221.230 (talk • contribs).

Good looking out, ese. I took it out, and if these were real sections, they were removed a long time ago. So if somebody finds them, please put them back.--Rockero 08:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The page is pure nonsense

75% of the info is a joke please fix! The article talks about wizards and hot pockets, I think it should be erased and restarted but some dont. Needs alot of fixing. 68.207.117.147 04:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] don't know who wrote this, but it's not very good

there is a lot wrong with this article. it's messy, it's vague, and it doesn't appear to be 100% accurate. I agree we should scrap this article and commission an expert to write a new one. Dia duit 19:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs info about Oregon

Though it shows on the map, there is no discussion about Smith's exploration of Oregon. http://www.endoftheoregontrail.org/oregontrails/jedsmith.html Katr67 05:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where Jedediah Smith died

All the online referenced links/bios indicate as per the article that Smith was killed either enroute to Santa Fe, NM or along the Santa Fe Trail. All agree that his death happened along the Cimarron River. None mention Kansas.

The Cimarron River originates in New Mexico. The Santa Fe Trail travels from St. Louis to New Mexico.

The main reference states that on May 27, 1831 left his party to find water The Mountain Man Jedediah Strong Smith. If he was following the Santa Fe Trail from St. Louis, he would have probably been in the states of Colorado, Oklahoma or New Mexico at the time of his attack (Kansas is ruled out by logic because it is not mentioned in the two online articles and would be in the wrong direction of travel if his goods were sold in Santa Fe, NM).

More than likely as per the article's description of his party finding some of Smith's article for sale in Santa Fe, NM places his death closer to either Santa Fe or the headwaters of the Cinnamon River.

Upon this basis, I will revert back to the original place of death listed before tonight's unsourced edit. Ronbo76 04:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm not certain where you get your information. The Santa Fe Trail did not follow along the Cimarron River in New Mexico. It left the Cimarron shortly after the trail from Kansas entered what is now the Oklahoma Panhandle and it entered New Mexico close to Clayton.[2][3] Also, Jedediah Smith left the wagon train he was leading westward somewhere on the Jornada de Muerte[4], which was the arid part of the Cimarron Cutoff in Kansas between the Arkansas River and the Cimarron. The Kansas State Historical Society has a marker at Wagon Bed Spring (Kansas) stating that "Near here in 1831 the noted western explorer and fur trader Jedediah Smith, lost four days without water, was killed by Comanches just as he reached the river [Cimarron River]."[5] Most off-line sources say much the same. BlackMesaMan 05:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I would highly discount your first two sources as they come from the same person who wrote it in the first person and speaks about "Then it was the Ed Towler Ranch, who was my Granddad." Sounds like he was trying to make a claim for fame. The last reference is a little better but conflicts with the original two in the article before your edit.
There also is the issue of how his goods ended up ahead of Smiths party in Santa Fe which was their intended destination. By even the last account, Smith was west of the party which would place him closer to Santa Fe.
This leads me to believe firmly that the original person who wrote that article portion got it correctly. Ronbo76 05:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The first source was written by the National Park Service's Santa Fe National Historic Trail site [6] and the second source was written by the Cimarron Heritage Center in Boise City.[7]. The third source, as you say, is written in the first person; however, it is an analysis of David Lavender's book, Bent's Fort (University of Nebraska Press, 1972, ISBN 0803257538 ) which states that Smith was killed after leaving his wagon train on the Journada in Kansas. And the last source is the Kansas State Historical Society.[8] If there is indeed a souce which states that Smith was killed in New Mexico, please list it. BlackMesaMan 06:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
My sources all came from the article and are listed out in the first paragraph of this section. They do not appear just as a number and arrow like yours do. Ronbo76 06:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment There's nothing wrong with a "number and arrow" embedded citation, especially on a talk page. If they are reliable sources, they can be referenced in the article. And just because a citation is already listed in the article does not mean it's reliable. Now, may I suggest a compromise that says something like "Some sources say Smith was killed in Kansas (list sources) while others say that he was killed in New Mexico (list sources). Katr67 17:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable Source?

The Klesinger site seems to be a random businessman's site and doesn't list its references and thus probably can't be considered a reliable source. Katr67 12:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Not so as it reflects the other source referenced. please see Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources. Ronbo76 13:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, so we've both linked to the reliable sources section of WP:ATT... To which part of it are you referring? "Reflecting" the the other source doesn't make it reliable--anybody can gather information off the internet or books and put it on the Internet. Klesinger's info seems to be a self-published source. Without references, it can't be counted as reliable. Is Klesinger an academic or other authority or simply a history buff? Smith's history is fraught with much misinformation, so we should be trying to reference primary and secondary sources as much as possible. Now, if you mean the site Klesinger links to: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/HNS/Mtmen/jedesmith.html , that one appears to have some academic backing and lists its sources. Katr67 16:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds great to me. Knowing my luck, he died in OK. Ronbo76 17:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)