Talk:Jean Sibelius

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Jean Sibelius is related to WikiProject Composers which has been provided as a place for editors of biographical articles of Music Composers and Songwriters to discuss common issues, discover neglected composer articles and exchange ideas. All who are interested are invited to comment and contribute.


Isn't it "Jan" Sibelius? I thought "Jean" was an anglicized version of the Finnish "Jan." (pronounced like "yawn")

"Sibelius has fallen in and out of fashion, but remains one of the most popular 20th century symphonists ..." In fact, he is by far the most popular according to a recent article in Helsingin Sanomat. Unfortunately I couldn't find any source to back up the fact.

Actually I believe that the remark about Cocktails and cold water was said by Sibelius to Mahler in comparison of musical styles and scoring.

Are we sure it's Sibelius 5 that the music notation software plays on startup? I thought it was Sibelius 7 (but I don't know Sibelius as well as I might, and could be mistaken). --Camembert

Hi Camembert, thanks for checking. I hardly know Sibelius at all but the product manual does say #5. (What a beautiful three seconds of music, I should go listen to the rest...) Opus33 00:32, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Just to follow-up on this: Sibelius notation program now says that "which symphony is quoted depends on the version of the software". Collect them all! --Camembert 16:28, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)



It is patently incorrect to claim that Jean Sibelius was Finland-Swedish. 213.243.157.114 02:06, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So, is it really? What's your source? How do you define "Finland-Swedish"? My memory is that he started to use Finnish privately first as an adult, after he'd met Aino. /Tuomas 00:26, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nope, Finnish was already his school language in his home. 213.243.157.114 21:39, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sibelius' family was swedish speaking, however from age 8 on he attended a Finish speaking school. It is not "incorrect" to state that he was Swedish-Finnish.Stirling Newberry 22:33, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Please elaborate what means "Swedish-Finnish"? Bilingual? 213.243.157.114 03:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it means that he is ethnically Swedish, but nationally Finnish such as someone may be ethnically Chinese but nationally American

Hämeenlinna was at that time fully Finnish-speaking place.

One of the things we should consider it what was the language Jean used himself, at his home, and with his family.

Jean Sibelius' parents already were Fennomans. Wanting to provide Finnish language as home language for their children. 213.243.157.114 03:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, Sibelius knew no Finnish until he was approximately 8 years old; he enrolled in a Finnish-speaking grammar school at the age of 11, and didn't master the language until he was a young adult. According to the article, he spoke Swedish at home. It's probably splitting hairs. I always considered him to be a "Finnish" composer, and still do--the same way that someone born in the United States, whatever language he/she learned first in childhood, would be an "American" composer. Antandrus 04:08, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/index.cfm?fuseaction=showIndividual&entity_id=3500&source_type=C quotes 8.

"Hämeenlinna was at that time fully Finnish-speaking place." This is factually inaccurate, the majority of the population spoke Swedish at the time of Sibelius' birth. Jean, and his family, were swept up in the transition to being Finnish speakers. However, Swedish was the language of the home, as shown by the The Hämeenlinna letters : the scenes from a musical life 1874-1895 - which are in Swedish. The normal school which Sibelius enrolled in at 11 was one of the first in the country which was Finnish based rather than Sweedish and Latin. Stirling Newberry 05:31, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Stirling claims: "Hämeenlinna was at that time fully Finnish-speaking place. is factually inaccurate, the majority of the population spoke Swedish at the time of Sibelius' birth."

Well, if you want to split hairs. Hämeenlinna was and is located in so-called "totally Finnish-speaking area". Only less than one percent was Swedish - a few families. They mostly were civil servants sent there by central administration. If you have a, say Moldavian, immigrant with his family in your home town, would you take that in account when writing an encyclopedic article about the language of your town? usually, that sort of minority is not taken into account. Why then here?
I agree that the kids of that Moldavian family in some cases use their ancestral language as almost only language until going to the school.
We have here, however, a family whose parents wanted to put Jean into Finnish-speaking school, despite of the alternative that there were a plentitude of Swedish-using schools in the country.
Hämeenlinna got its first Finnish-speaking school only in those days, not earlier. Truly Swedish families of Hämeenlinna were used to send their kids to Swedish-speaking schools of that day (possibly to Helsinki), or to hiring a tutor (who, of course, would have been easy to choose from Swedish-speakers), or to teach at home (by parents) which was also relatively common.
In the circumstances of Hämeenlinna of those days, all persons (possibly excluding kids under school age, mutes, hearing-impaired, hospitalized coma-cases etc) needed to use Finnish. For example, Jean's father as physician apparently used Finnish with patients. 213.243.157.114 22:40, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Antandrus: "It's probably splitting hairs. I always considered him to be a "Finnish" composer, and still do--the same way that someone born in the United States, whatever language he/she learned first in childhood, would be an "American" composer."

The hair-splitting seems to be important to some individuals here, whose IP connections show them hail from Sweden. It is apparently very important that they are able to number as many notable persons as possible among "Swedish" in Finland. Even against the historical person's own Fennoman wishes.
I have guessed that the names and the number of truly Swedish notables in Finland is so short and uninspiring that reinforcements are desperately needed by believers of Great-Scandinavian bias.
We apparently can, in accordance with to Antandrus' view, write in the article that Sibelius was Finnish composer?? or, "a composer from Finland"? 213.243.157.114 22:48, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It should be clear that Jean Sibelius should be labelled as a finnish composer as that was the nationality of his family and himself.
I'm the first to admit that I don't understand this controversy, if any--I always, always knew Sibelius as a "Finnish" composer, so I'm fine with this edit. My ancestors are Jewish and Native American and German and various other things, but if I ever get an article written about me, I'd be fine if I'm just called an "American" composer, not a hyphenated-conglomerate of these other ancestral groups. Antandrus 02:53, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The controversy has to do with historical "language battle" (kielitaistelu) in Finland from about 1860s to 1930s. During this time Finnish established itself as the primary language of a former Swedish "province" of Finland (Swedish is still an official language, too). As for Sibelius, his family on father's side seems to have been "originally" Finnish speaking, while on mother's side Swedish speaking (not "Swedish", though). By the time of Sibelius' birth the family spoke Swedish, but as fennomans they put "Janne" to a "Finnish school". Anyway, the distinction between "Finns" and "Finland-Swedes" didn't exist until about 1900, so it's pretty meanigless to try to figure out the ethnicity of young Sibelius. He himself must have regarded himself as a Finn who happens to speak Swedish as his mother tongue. At the time about 20% did. Later on, when the battle became more heated, Sibelius took a stand regarding the language/enthnicity issue. I don't remember his exact words but the idea was: couldn't care less. There seems to be certain nationalistic Swedes (very few, I believe) who don't accept this reasonable view. It's great music inspired by Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Italian, Austrian and German traditions and sentiments. Tomi Ahti 10:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The part about the Fift Symphony and honoring the composer needs to be moved to the Sibelius notation program page. However, there's a contradiction between the pages. This one claims that "the name is explicitly intended to honor" Jean, but the other one gives a different explanation and states that the original authors of the program "can't really remember" the reason for the name. If someone knows more, please make up a way to combine the passages. Some reference to the sources of the info, if applicable, would also be great. Wipe 23:34, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Mic, we now have a separate disambiguation page. I feel, though, that the amount of content doesn't yet merit a disambig page and some of it's entries are questionable (little risk of confusion). I moved the deleted start-up melody bit to the notation program page. I assume the editors of that page know best when it comes to the reasons for the name. Wipe 20:07, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sibelius was not "Finland-Swedish".

In the article it reads:

"Sibelius was born into a Finland-Swedish family ..."

At the time of Sibelius' birth the term "Finland-Swedish" didn't exist. When the term later on (by about the early 20th century) was coined, Sibelius himself didn't adopt it. If there are people who think that ancestry is, for some reason, important: Sibelius' family on father's side seems to have been Finnish (their farm in a Finnsih part of the country called "Pekkala" and his grandfather called "Janne", see http://www.sibelius.fi/suomi/suku_perhe/suku_sibelius.htm).

So, "Sibelius was born into a Swedish-speaking family ..." is clearly a more correct. Tomi Ahti 10:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

What's this about him being called "Janne"? I've never heard of this before. Wasn't he "Jean" to the rest of the world? JackofOz 00:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
See http://www.sibelius.fi/english/elamankaari/ "The couple decided to call their son Janne in memory of Doctor Sibelius's brother, Johan "Janne" Sibelius, who had been the captain of a merchant ship. Later on it became Janne’s habit to modify his official first names, writing them in the order Johan Julius Christian. During his student years, he began to use visiting cards which he had found in the estate of his uncle, Johan Sibelius. In the fashion of the times, his uncle had written his name on the cards using a French form. Thus Johan Christian Julius "Janne" Sibelius became known to posterity as Jean Sibelius."
"Sibelius was born into a Swedish-speaking family ..." looks a bit out of place, as well. I mean, is it customary in Wikipedia to mention in the first chapter the language a person happened to speak? For example, Britannica's article about Sibelius doesn't. Oh well, I'll leave it at that, perhaps it serves some purpose.

um, excuse me, yes he was. I'm his realative and I too am "Finland Swedish"

Grandchildren (I don't know about the children) don't speak Swedish. The language used in Sibelius' home was Finnish although Janne and Aino could change to Swedish if they didn't want the kids to understand what they were saying. This is an authentic reply by one of the Sibelius' grandchildren when asked about the language issue.

[edit] "French uncle"

His uncle wasn't French, in fact, but a sailor. Therefore, the uncle used a French version of his name as it was easier for other people to understand. And probably more elegant sounding as well, to him at least. Young Sibelius found his uncle's business cards, saw the name Jean, and decided to use it. Source: Tawastjerna's biography of Sibelius.--Wormsie 22:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect "Sibelius" to this article?

I think that makes the most sense. Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to do it. I tried to do it by renaming the previous article entitled Sibelius (which was a disambiguation page) "Sibelius (disambiguation." Then I tried to redirect the old Sibelius article to this page, but for some reason it redirects to Sibelius (disambiguation). I can't figure out why this is. If anyone could help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Smedley Hirkum 01:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Seems like it's working now, right? Setting up a redirect is documented somewhere in the Wikipedia docs. Andrewski 22:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to the Sibelius notation software?

Does the music notation software named Sibelius have any connection with Jean Sibelius? Was its name inspired by it?

I ask this because I came across this article by typing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibelius thinking that I'd read about the notation software (where instead I discover Jean Sibelius), and I only came across the notation software after reading the article on the Finale notation program. Not to mention that this article has no reference to the notation software.

See Sibelius (disambiguation) for other uses of the name. It's listed at the top of the article. Andrewski 22:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I added a cleanup notice due to the numerous incomplete sentences and other peculiarities.--Wormsie 15:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sibelius was not "Finland-Swedish", neither "Finnish" actually.

Well, if we have a look at the nationality Finland was part of Russia in 1865 and continued to be Russian up to 1917. Finland gained its independence two days before Janne was 52. I keep wondering why the "Finnishness" is such an important issue...

It also continued to be Finland while it was part of the Russian state (or Swedish state). Its own statehood came about because of the Finnish nationality (m-w.com definition 5 a : a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state b : an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (as a nation ) ). Nationality and statehood are not exactly the same thing. -- JHunterJ 21:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To split or to not split infinitives

I restored this sentence:

In this way Sibelius sought to radically simplify the internal
construction of the music.

instead of this correction:

In this way Sibelius radically sought to radically simplify
the internal construction of the music.

Moving radically before sought changes the meaning. If the split infinitive must be avoided,

In this way Sibelius sought to simplify the internal construction
of the music radically.

is a possibility, but a rewrite-from-scratch of the sentence would be clearer, IMO.

I also switched rumour back to rumor. Since Sibelius is neither British nor American, the style of the first major contributor should be maintained. -- JHunterJ 20:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Technically, I think this might be better and still retaining its meaning:

In this way Sibelius sought to simplify radically the internal
construction of the music.

However, I think that's more awkward and that's why I constructed that sentence that way in the first place (if I wrote it; can't quite remember). I generally hate split infinitives though; any thoughts? Andrewski 22:29, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

What I actually changed it to was:
In this way Sibelius radically sought to simplify the internal
construction of the music.
However, like Andrewski, I can live with this particular split infinitive. Alternatively, which may be considered better, it could be changed to:
Sibelius was radical in the way he sought to simplify the internal
construction of the music.
Any objections?
Re: "rumour" vs. "rumor" - I note what you say, but this phrase only appeared relatively recently. The only other blatant Americanism is "... was sketched from the motive of the statue in Don Giovanni sneaking by moonlight", which I must confess to not having the faintest idea what this might mean (I know what "sneaking about" means, and I know what "sneakers" are, but neither accords with my understanding of the plot of Mozart's opera). I therefore propose to amend "... and rumor has it that ..." to "... and it is understood that ...". Any objections? 195.217.52.130 15:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we just blow a hole in this debate and take it out altogether? I wasn't aware of this before, but weasel words are discouraged on Wikipedia. That just leaves us to cite that quote.... --Andrewski 22:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
How about, "Sibelius sought radical simplification of the music's internal structure."? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. I say go ahead and make the change. Andrewski 13:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately I disagree. Whilst "Sibelius sought radical simplification of the music's internal structure." is undoubtedly true (almost to the point of a truism), I think the point that the original author of the sentence with the split infinitive was making was that Sibelius is often seen as purely reactionary compared to many of his contemporaries (through writing in a strictly major:minor tonal idiom, unlike the Second Viennese School, Debussy, Vaughan Williams or Ives for example, but avoiding the melodic, harmonic and temporal expansiveness of, say, Mahler and Strauss). However, he was radical in that he made the internal structure of his music as simple and as self-contained as possible, distilling everything down to a few motivic ideas, then permitting the music to grown organically. This contrast is completely lost in the most recent edit. I would be reasonably happy with "Sibelius was radical in seeking simplification of the music's internal structure.", though would prefer something marginally more explicit. 195.217.52.130 12:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I like what you've written right here. Why not put that--or some form thereof--in the article? :) --Andrewski 22:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/e/a/Talk%7EJean_Sibelius_2be4.html"