Talk:Japonic languages

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[edit] Origins

The Origins section notes the following:

Japonic languages are related to modern Korean based primarily on near-identical grammar, but there is scarce lexical similarity between the two; supporters of the Buyeo languages theory generally do not include modern Korean as part of that family.

However, as I point out in the Classification section of the Japanese language Talk page, the first half of this statement displays faulty logic, and the second contradicts several other pages, notably the Korean language page, and the Buyeo languages page, among others. The logical flaw lies in that finding the grammars of any two languages to be similar, or even identical, does not prove relatedness but instead only proves similarity. This is not to say that Korean and Japanese are not related -- I personally hold the view that they spring from common ancestry, given my time spent studying the Japanese and Korean langauges and the history of East Asia. But in terms of making a solid point here on this page, one must look into the histories and linguistics of the two languages to say anything definitive about relatedness.

As to the other Wikipedia pages, I am no expert on the history of the Korean peninsula or language, but what I've read outside of Wikipedia does seem to back up the view that Samhan, Silla, Goguryeo, Gojoseon, and Buyeo are all related.

The Japonic languages page itself contains no citation of any verifiable source for the above quoted statement. Given the logical flaw and the contradictory views on other more extensively footnoted pages, I am inclined to think that this statement here is mistaken. Looking back at the page history, I find that Gilgamesh was the one to add this material. I would very much appreciate it if Gilgamesh or anyone else would be so kind as to add a source for this view, not least in that it would make this page and Wikipedia in general that much more useful for research. Without any such source, my personal feeling is that this page should be changed to be more in line with the other related pages. What do others think?

Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 23:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Another bit from Origins:

As far as lexical studies have shown, the modern living non-Japonic language with the closest lexical similarity to any of the Japonic languages is Uyghur, a Turkic language.

In the wake of these theories, some argue that the similarity between all these languages is merely a sprachbund, and that the attested similarities between some or all of these languages are simply the result of their cultures being close geographic neighbors on the Asian mainland over the course of millennia.

I'm no expert on this subject, but certainly at the present time Japanese and Uyghur are nowhere near each other. I think this subject needs at least a little clarification on where/when such contact would have taken place, e.g. migration theories, reference to other languages that might be more likely to have had contact with proto-Japonic speakers, or links to other articles about them. KarlM 10:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

User:Cibeckwith claims that Japonic languages is a disputed term an proposes Japanese-Ryukyuan languages instead. I have during my academic career never stumbled upon the latter term and it seems IMHO quite unwieldy. Could an expert on this subject please clear up the confusion? --Himasaram 08:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, User:Cibeckwith is an expert on this subject. Please correspond with him personally if you have any dissatisfaction with the nomenclature. For the time being, I am going to remove the unsightly "attention needed" template from the main page, because this article is actually very accurate as it stands, although it is rather bare-boned. Ebizur 00:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Both are used. I personally prefer Japonic because it is shorter. It seems better to choose less node-based names for language families in case the classification is reorganized in the future or if varieties that were previously regarded as smaller subnodes are moved up to a higher position, the name is still relevant. --Node 13:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)