Talk:Japanese rock garden

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[edit] Criticisms

The term "criticism" usually implies a judgement or bias, which is why the content was labeled as such. Editing for conciseness as well as inclusion of counterpoints is invited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.10.205.95 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 19 December 2005.

The criticism section is as long as, if not longer than, the main body of the article itself. Furthermore it relies primarily on a single source. Therefore it should be shortened, ideally to 1/3 or at most 1/2 of the length it is at present. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 133.186.47.9 (talk • contribs) 08:22, 12 January 2006.

[edit] Headline text

Fun and stressless you just need a good quiet room and let the zen garden do the reat!!!!

The criticisms section makes reference to two printed works as well as other Wikipedia articles. The web address listed provides additional commentary. It would seem that the section relies on more than just a single source for proofs. Moreover, it doesn't seem logical that a section's length should be dictated by it's topic (criticism vs. the main topic itself). Several editors have made helpful changes for conciseness and readability while still maintaining the points and sources of the criticisms. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.224.201.132 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 3 February 2006.
The criticism takes an overly literal and naive view of the use of the term Zen garden. The term may be modern, but it refers to the fact that karesansui gardens were developed by designers who were associated with the practice of Rinzai Zen. The critical remarks ignore this connection and may lead the reader into thinking that the connection between these gardens and Zen temples is a completely modern phenonmenon irrelevant to aspects of their design. This is an unbalanced and incorrect viewpoint. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.47.183.33 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 17 February 2006.
Perhaps the criticisms section could be removed altogether and instead have someone with knowledge about Rinzai Zen clarify the origin and role of the garden with the practice. It seems the criticisms simply seek to disprove the modern popular views about the garden and it's use in Buddhism / meditation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.213.89.10 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 1 March 2006.
I removed the external link from the "criticism"-section, it is found and should be found under external links. It would be good to create a note in the text leading to the link, though, preferrably under "References" or similar. I have not dug so deeply into the art of references within wikipedia articles, however. // Habj 00:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was lowercase. —Nightstallion (?) 08:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Japanese rock garden?

In Japan, the garden in Ryoanji etc. vill not be referred to as zen gardens, but rock gardens. The term "zen garden" was, as far as I can see, invented in the west and apparenty used in gardening context, where this concept has gained some popularity - but is not this article about the actual Japanese gardens? If the page was moved to Japanese rock garden, then maybe the slightly troublesome "criticism"-sektion can be exchanged for a section that discusses the term zen garden in Western garden architecture etc. // Habj 13:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Zen Garden / Japanese Rock Garden → Karesansui – {Use of a traditional Japanese name will help clarify it's origin, use, and allow "Zen Garden" to be a subsection. TJW 21:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)} copied from the entry on the WP:RM page

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Oppose - It should be Japanese rock garden (small r & g), since this is not a particular place but a type of place. Rock garden is also much more widely used than either Zen garden or Karesansui. ~ trialsanderrors 21:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't poll yet - discuss. It is too early to start polling - we have more than two alternatives to choose from, which makes stray polls difficult to interpret. The issue has not been discussed, hopefully discussion can boil it down to two alternatives - after that, we can poll if needed. // Habj 00:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I got the page on my watch list and am happy to reconsider my vote if new evidence emerges. I don't see much discussion going on though. ~ trialsanderrors 20:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Please discuss first, polls are typically overkill. As per Habj. Kim Bruning 00:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
    • In particular, please discuss what advantages using a non-English name will give; it is an imposition on the reader to assume he speaks Japanese, which should be justified. Septentrionalis 02:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Is the zen garden alternative skipped? I think it is a bad alternative, as I have explained above, but I suppose not everyone will agree on that. I will not expand more on that subject unless we have someone supporting it, though. In one way of course karesansui is the most correct word, it is what the Japanese say, but since this is English Wikipedia I'd say it is not much used in English language. I'd go for Japanese rock garden, i.e. the current caps should be removed. I would much prefer karesansui over zen garden though, since this alternative - like Japanese rock garden - would help us get rid of that troublesome "critisism"-section. //Habj 00:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

To present some summary points as discussion starters:

  • Japanese rock garden (no capitalization please) is the most descriptive English title. It seems to be widely used and it is clear from the description what the entry is about. It doesn't win the Google test though.
  • Karesansui is the original Japanese term and as such least ambiguous. It doesn't seem to be widely used in English though.
  • Zen garden seems to win the Google test but it's not clear that the term unambiguously refers to karesansui-type rock gardens.

Feel free to add rejoinders. ~ trialsanderrors 20:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if it was inappropriate to start a poll. I'm not very familiar with the editing community at this wiki, so I went by Wikipedia's documentation / suggestions for discussing a possible move. My logic for suggesting it in the first place was that karesansui is very much a Japanese culture concept, much like manga (vs. "Japanese comic books") or kabuki (vs. "Japanese theater"), however it's certainly understandable to use the term most commonly used by english speakers. Perhaps someone should change the capitalization while this is being discussed. -帝武 → TJW 00:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Both words manga and kabuki are commonly used in English, there is a difference. I move the article to a non-caps-version for now.
I agree zen garden probably has a slightly different meaning, but above all I think it is used by another group of people. I think the japanophiles say rock garden (or in context Japanese rock garden), while the Western gardenophiles say "zen garden" referring to the gardens in Japan as well as gardens in the West inspired by them. The term is popular, but by many considered incorrect - while I hope "Japanese rock garden" works for all. // Habj 08:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Oops, couldn't move since the redirect page "japanese rock garden" points to "zen garden", not here. We'll have to wait a while until we've seen if there are more opinions coming in, I guess, and then get admin help. // Habj 08:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Added capmove tag and changed the redirect on Jrg to →JRG. ~ trialsanderrors 08:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] minor question

the lead says: "...and the rocks are often associated with and named after various Chinese mountains." (my emphasis) but as the zen garden is a japanese garden, isn't that wrong ????

[edit] Zen garden myth

There is an article here that argues that the idea that Japanese rock gardens are "Zen gardens" is a myth created in the West. When I took a Japanese history class in college, I learned about rock gardens, but not about Zen gardens. Since encyclopedias are supposed to be factual sources, perhaps this Wikipedia article should be more careful about distinguishing between true Japanese rock gardens and new age "Zen gardens". --JHP 23:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emperor's New Clothes

What about the urban legend that rock gardens started out as an 'Emperor's new Clothes' type of prank? 81.156.193.66 21:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

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