Talk:Japanese loanwords in Hawaii
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While I was writing this, some questions came up in my head. Let me know if anybody has any answers or theories.
1. hanabuddha - What's the origin of this word? It's not standard Japanese. mauiboy 18:10, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Why are the japanese words written in combinations of kanjii and katakana? The katakana should definately be changed to hiragana, and possibly also the kanjii. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.18.211.8 (talk • contribs).
Shishi: Urine or urinate. "I gotta go shishi" is a common phrase.
In Portugal the phrase "fazer xixi" is very common.. It is pronounced the same as 'shishi' and has the same meaning. Perhaps the Portuguese immigrants brought this to Hawaii as well? Where did the word originally come from? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.203.17.238 (talk • contribs).
- In Japanese, shishi is 尿尿 according to this Japanese dictionary entry. Sorry, it's in Japanese, but shishi is very well established in Japanese. Also, the related "5-4-4" may be pronounced "go shi shi" (as in the numbers five-four-four) in Japanese. And in Hawaiian Pidgin "5-4-4" is same as "go shishi" which can also translate into "go benjo", which are all believed to be derived from Japanese language into Hawaiian Pidgin. I don't know if there is any connection with the Portuguese (Potagee) xixi or not.
- I noticed that the use of katakana in this article often corresponds with the use of katakana in the corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article. I think it is merely there to ensure proper linkage to the Japanese Wikipedia.--Endroit 13:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
--- Saying that "shi-shi" comes from Japanese "shi-shi" rather than Portuguese "xixi" is a bit of an empty assumption. First because both languages had a clear influence on the pidgin. Second because Japanese did borrow several words from Portuguese, and whereas we use "xixi" in daily Portuguese, I've never really heard anyone saying it in Japanese that often* (as opposed to "shikko" and "shonben"). Finally, and most importantly, this is word has clearly got an onomatopoeia-like origin, so it wouldn't be surprising if this word came from people who didn't speak either languages.
- In case you're wondering why I'm adding my personal experience, I'm a Brazilian majoring in Japanese language - I probably know a thing or two in both languages. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.11.139.43 (talk • contribs).
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- The Japanese influence in Hawaii is so significant. 16% of Hawaiian residents are of Japanese descent. Hawaii's grade schools (and higer schools) teach Japanese. And many Hawaiians learn Japanese as a second language. Not only that, since Japanese people have intermingled with Hawaiians for such a long time, you just cannot completely deny any relation exists between the Japanese shishi and the Hawaiian Pidgin shishi.
- However, rest assured that the Portuguese have influenced Hawaii as well. The following Portuguese loanwords, etc. exist in Hawaii....
- Babooze (bah BOOZE) — clown or dummy
- Couriche (koo DEESH) — Portuguese swear word
- Malasada (mah lah SAH da) — Portuguese doughnut (no hole)
- Pao doce (pan DOOSS) — Portuguese sweet bread
- Portagee (PO da ghee) — Portuguese
- Portagee sausage — Linguiça
- --Endroit 08:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not completely denying the fact that "shishi" might've come from the Japanese language, but it is unlikely, given its obscure nature in the language (even the link you provided regards it as just being "baby-talk", and the word is not even listed in their Japanese-English dictionary). You should verify this information in a reliable source, otherwise you'll end up just showing myths as true facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.34.235.23 (talk • contribs).
- You may have perfect understanding of Portuguese and a rudimentary understanding of Japanese, but you lack any significant knowledge of Hawaiian Pidgin English. You don't have enough knowledge to be making suggestions here.
- I have a citation from Douglas Simonson, "Pidgin to da Max 25th Anniversary Edition", Bess Press 2005 ISBN 1-57306-250-2, which says:
- SHISHI (SHEE shee)
- 1. What you do eenside da lua.
- 2. What little old Japanese ladies say when they have to go benjo.
- There's your proof of Japanese influence on the Hawaiian Pidgin word shishi. Where's your citation proving that the Portuguese xixi is related to the Hawaiian Pidgin shishi?--Endroit 07:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Now, before we begin with more assumptions (i.e. that I have "rudimentary understanding of Japanese", and that "I don't have enough knowledge to be making suggestions here"), do you even know how etymology works? Are you sure "Pidgin to da Max" can be considered a reliable source, and a product of scientific research?
You can't write anything in an encyclopedia just because "it seems so" ;) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.24.47.182 (talk • contribs).
- Dear anonymous:
- Read Wikipedia:Verifiability carefully: it is official Wikipedia policy. Now before we discuss any further, please provide YOUR reliable source, regarding what YOU are claiming. Unless you do, whatever you say will be dismissed as original research and unfit for Wikipedia.--Endroit 07:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Have you actually read anything I wrote, or are you just blindly rebutting in order to hide the facts from yourself? Do you even have any linguistic background, so to speak? We have several probabilities (i.e. Japanese, Portuguese, onomatoepia, or it could even be a local creation) and NO RELIABLE SOURCE WHATSOEVER (since "Pidgin to da Max" does not seem to have any etymological basis - or any scientific method behind it, but it's rather an example of what you see now).
That's what I'm trying to tell you since the beginning: you cannot have an assumption (i.e. that it comes from Japanese, when you just "feel" it comes) as a fact. That happened with the infamous "Arigatou myth" (arigatou sounds like obrigado, and used in the same context, so it was inferred by many that it came from Portuguese), when anyone with "rudimentary Japanese" knows for a fact that it comes from a modification of "Arigatai" through "Arigatau". They actually had to add a disclaimer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_words_from_Portuguese
Therefore, be humble and, unless there are no other possible hypothesis, do some research. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.24.47.182 (talk • contribs).
- If you didn't understand me the last time, Original Research is discouraged in Wikipedia. Please read WP:NOR and follow the rules.--Endroit 05:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I did understand you, and that's exactly what I'm telling you: the problem here is that "Pidgin to da Max" doesn't seem to qualify as a reliable source, and it's not much different from a "original research": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reputable_publications http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
From the example you gave me: 1) "Reputable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications." - The study of etymology is clearly something that should be carried out by linguists, or someone with a reputable background in the area. That doesn't seem to be the case of "Pidgin to da Max". In fact, I even found it listed in the "humour" section.
2) There seems to be no peer-reviewing about this book. Why is it that I couldn't find any linguist discussion about this book?
If it does contain any etymologycal research, then please post it along with the words. You can't cite information from such unreliable information like that, you need, if you really want to have this word listed, to check other sources.
