Talk:Japanese dialects

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Contents 1 Chari 2 Regarding analogies to dialects of other countries 3 Kansai and Osaka comments 4 Shall we categorize "generic" slang? 5 Hokkaido comments 6 Okinawa comments 7 What is "umpaku"? 8 Cleanup 9 Dialect use 10 Tsushima-ben - something doesn't match.

[edit] Chari

I added the few last revisions, and I would like to bring attention to the "chari" word for bike. I know it was used in Shiga Prefecture, but I don't know to what extent it is used in Kansai, though I think it is pretty general Kansai speak. I think. Alan 20:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's just Kansai. I live in Ibaraki, on the edge of Kantō, and it's called chari here, too. While I'm not sure of the word's geographic origins, I've never heard of the "chariot" derivation. I have, though, heard that it comes from チャリンチャリン, the sound of the bell. I won't remove anything right now, and I'll start asking around if anyone's heard of a Kansai (or Shiga) origin. But regardless of its origins, I think this entry is probably more suited for general Japanese language slang. JFHJr (㊟) 04:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a common word across Japan. We call it that in Tōhoku as well. Erk|Talk _{-- I like traffic lights --} 03:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding analogies to dialects of other countries

It seems that the attempt to understand Japanese dialects invites comparisons to familiar dialects and regionalisms in the English language. I believe that such analogies are invariably flawed, inaccurate, misleading, unsupported by any scholarly research, and perpetuate regional biases and stereotypes of one culture into another culture. Further, they invariably seem to be biased toward regionalisms of the US. If it's documented that Southern US English has been rendered into Japanese using Tohoku-ben it's fine to state the existence of this situation. The current version of the Kansai-ben section does a good job of characterizing this situation. But I don't think we should not be making comments like "Tohoku-ben is roughly analagous to Southern US English". It's fine for rhetorical discussions at the bar on Saturday night, but in an encyclopedic article I will remove such statements as I see them. Of course if someone can show published research that supports these assertions, I'll defer to that. The Hokkaido Crow 01:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kansai and Osaka comments

With regards to the "Common Phrases Unique To..." section, I believe that many of those words are no longer unique to the Kansai dialect. For example, although attributed originally to the Kansai dialects, "aho" is widely used these days. Also, "yaru" is also used as "give" in hyoujungo, as a variant of "ageru" used in particular when the speaker considers the "receiever" to be of lower status. However, I will leave this is a comment for now. As with most of the Japan related entries, this section still needs a lot of work! Lenny-au

"konyanyachiwa" is never spoken in Kansai. It is only used in a Japanese manga "Tensai Bakabon". Joh Shoh 17:42, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's used in Cardcaptor Sakura too. See: http://www.ccsvscc.com/glossary.html

Also, is "konnana" (goodbye) instead of "konbanwa" genuine Osaka-ben? WhisperToMe 23:00, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The best-known dialect is Tokyo-ben and not Kansai-ben (although, strictly, Kansai-ben's eastern counterpart would be Kanto-ben, and Tokyo-ben's western counterpart would be Osaka-ben (and what's commonly perceived as Osaka-ben is really Kawachi-ben, and real Osaka-ben is on the brink of extinction)).--Outis 13:27, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would like to see someone clean up the Kansai-ben section. It is clear that Osaka-ben and Kansai-ben have been used interchangably in this article, but I don't know enough about those languages to make the correction. The Hokkaido Crow 9 July 2005 03:31 (UTC)

[edit] Shall we categorize "generic" slang?

How about adding a section on top for general dialectal slang, stuff that's fairly generic? -ai and -oi tend to become -ee (as in shiranai becomes shiranee), ja nai can become ya nai, that kind of stuff. I'd do it myself but I don't know very much. Bigpeteb

[edit] Hokkaido comments

I put the hyphen back in o-ban desu in the Hokkaido dialect section. The hyphen separating honorifics from words helps to make the meaning clear, and is standard practice in romanization. Otherwise in this instance it could be confused with oban which was a type of currency in the Edo era. — Ts'éiyoosh 18:54, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Okinawa comments

I just made some changes to the discussion in the "Dialects or languages?" section. First, I changed "others" to be "other people" so that linguists are not lumped into the category of people who believe Okinawan is Japanese. The perception that Okinawan is a separate langauge among linguists is nearly universal outside of Japan, and certainly the majority view inside of Japan. It would be difficult even in Japan to find a linguist today who claims otherwise, though many such claims were made in the past. Second, I mentioned Ainu as a language which is felt to be non-Japanese by nearly everyone in Japan, linguist or not. It seems like a good contrast to make.

NPOV aside, the claim that Okinawan is Japanese is pretty heavily contradicted by linguistic data and analysis. I suppose it should be left to indicate to the reader that there is some debate, but the people doing the arguing against Okinawan as a separate language have significant political motives which are difficult to capture in this article and are really beside the point in this subject. Perhaps I (or someone else) will add in some commentary about the political aspects of Japanese dialects and the Okinawan language argument. — Ts'éiyoosh 02:36, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've removed comments on the Ainu language because Ainu is not a dialect of Japanese or any other language, and it's in no danger of being mistaken as such. Also, Ainu has virtually no connection to Okinawa. Therefore, I believe Ainu has no place in an article on dialects of the Japanese language. The Hokkaido Crow 9 July 2005 03:27 (UTC)

[edit] What is "umpaku"?

The article has a header Japanese dialects#Umpaku. It's between Chugoku and Shikoku in the listing. I can't recall hearing this term before. Does anyone know what it means? Fg2 07:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Probably ja:雲伯方言, though I myself have never heard of it (worse, I don't know many of dialects on ja:方言...). - Marsian / talk 09:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, that must certainly be it. Fg2 20:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I added a cleanup tag here. The organization of this article is all over the place. Some sections have bullets with geographic locations, with no mention as to why those locations are there, while some have examples of the dialects. Others have links to specific dialect pages.

I would suggest picking one format and staying with it. Kcumming 19:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dialect use

The article leaves a lot of question open. There is next to nothing to be found about dialect use in present-day Japan. Most western countries have been experiencing various level of dialect loss for at least the last 50 years. In some countries (eg France, England), old-fashioned rural dialects have practically ceased to exist at all. Is dialect use still widespread in Japan? Are children growing up speaking dialect, standard Japanese or both, as a rule? Are dialects converging towards regional norms or standards? Is there a social dialect continuum from basilectal to acrolectal varieties? I do not know any of the answers, but I am sure there must be Wikepedians who do.Unoffensive text or character 13:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Almost all of this article is about dialect use in present-day Japan. Rural dialects are very much alive, in fact the dialects that are documented as being in decline are certain urban aristocratic dialects in Tokyo and Osaka. Generally in school, a neutral dialect is used, and the regional dialect is reinforced outside of school. As to the change and flow, it's difficult to make any generalization except to say that language is in a constant state of change. The Crow 13:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Crow. You say that "almost all of this article is about dialect use in present-day Japan". But the article does not explicitely state (with one or two exceptions) that the dialects are still in general use. I thinks what you just wrote as an answer to my questions should be included in the article. Unoffensive text or character 09:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tsushima-ben - something doesn't match.

Look for the part where it says "chingu".

It reads in kanji「親友｣, but in roomaji "tomodachi".

The kanji is "shin'yuu" meaning "best friend".

But the roomaji means "friend", the kanji being「友達｣.

The English is "best friend".

Can someone check this and find out what "chingu" means? "Friend" or "Best friend"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KevinJr42 (talk • contribs) 14:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC).