Talk:James Hjuka Coulter
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[edit] Justification for the entry
The main reason I think this entry should exist is to differentiate between the Irminenschaft of Willigut's time. The user who was so active in all of the Nazi mysticism entries had made statements that the entire Irminenschaft entry should be about Willigut's variant, and he made similar claims that Wotanism should solely be about List's version. At the time, this seemed like a good expedient measure. We can re-merge them back together I suppose, but that is pretty much ignoring the controversy and will result in further arguments and consensus debates down the road. - WeniWidiWiki 16:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- well, I realize this group appears to be unrelated to Wiligut's Irminenschaft. The question is, is it at all notable? The only source we have is irminenschaft.net, registered to James Coulter, hjuki[at]hotmail.com, Sewell, New Jersey. We don't do articles about personal websites. We need evidence for the notability of this group, or I'm afraid I'll have to Afd this. dab (𒁳) 09:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, all things considered, it would probably be best to redirect to Germanic neopaganism, leaving the disambig statement you've placed at Irminenschaft and having it state This article is about the concept in Nazi mysticism; see Irminen-Gesellschaft for the US Germanic neopagan group. I assumed some things that were not bourne out, and I thought that other editors who were around at the time would fill this out. - WeniWidiWiki 15:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I would be interested in establishing the notability of US "Irminenschaft" and their background. But they do not seem capable of making sense; at least, they are not familiar with the concept of citing your sources, their webpage has "Irminenschaft (or, Irminism) is the embodiment of the Germanic Heathen expression as it has survived and evolved over the slow turnings of ages" -- in other words, pure nonsense reeking of naive white supremacism. Their redneck banners do nothing to dispel the impression. My conclusion would be that this is some sort of cover for a bunch of nostalgic "white power" USians. But we don't have any source apart from the website. As such, this is an article about a website, and notability criteria for websites should apply. dab (𒁳) 09:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Redirects
Irminism, Irminenschaft, Armanenschaft, Irminen-Gesellschaft, Irmin-Kristianity, James Hjuka Coulter Arrrgh! These pages have been shuffled around so many times, everything I've said on the talk pages makes little sense because of the constant juggling. Just let me know what you guys decide, because I'm sick of having to change the in-link every time some drive-by editor from Hjuka's group comes along. I say redirect all the modern ones to Germanic neopaganism, and all the pre-war issues to Irminenschaft at this point just because these editors have shown a predictable pattern of whining about coverage and then not following through with material or feedback. - WeniWidiWiki 15:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- look, there are some subsets of Germanic neopaganism that are notable enough to have their own articles (Odinism, Wotanism, Asatru), because they have distinct meanings that make them subsets, not synonyms. Note that Irminen-Gesellschaft is an alleged group, while "Irminism" is an alleged synonym of "Germanic Heathenry". Both allegations have turned out to stem from J Coulter, and as such are only as notable as Coulter himself. The move makes this explicit: We can keep this article or delete it, judging Coulter's notability in the open. I'm sorry, but such juggling is sometimes necessary, especially in the case of attempts at self-promotion where editors attempt to create a smoke-screen of terminology to obscure the fact that they're really just here to advertise their book/blog/whatever. dab (𒁳) 16:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not holding you responsible whatsoever Dab. I feel like I'm talking to myself much of the time with certain activist editors who appear, protest wildly and then vanish into the ether and we're left here scratching our heads trying to account for whatever the latest agenda is. I don't know if Hjuka or his book have enough verifiable notability as per wiki standards to have his own entry, but I feel that his website and the org (Irminen-Gesellschaft) probably do. - WeniWidiWiki 16:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- well, for all we know it could be a one-man-show... what evidence do you have that the notability of Irminen-Gesellschaft is higher than that of Coulter's? Have you found any printed or official reference to its existence? Granted, their Zeitgeist (always according to the website!) has contribution by other authors:
- Materia Medica Erotica and Little Gallows Man by Amy J. Ahlberg-Venezia
- Fitness and the Heathen by Ergart Eremfrid
- Frô by Steve Anthonijsz
- Donars Hammer by Margarethe Müller
- Wodan, The Logos, and Yggdrasill by Dean J. Adams
- Allfather Wodan by Sigrun Liobhering
- Vinátta by Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson
- The Tomten by Viktor Rydberg
- where the last two are obviously reprints of old material, Odin knows whether with or without permission. I have no idea if the other bits are original publications, but even if they are, we've just established that Coulter over the years got half a dozen people to write articles for his journal, it goes nowhere towards showing that the journal has any notability, or that the Gesellschaft consist of more than Coulter and his cat. If they do, peace to them, but we need evidence. dab (𒁳) 17:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I am the Northeast USA regional representative of the Irminen-Gesellschaft (IG). It was (and is) my recommendation that Karl Maria Wiligut’s work be moved to Irmin-Kristianity, as this is the term he used for his own mystical path, and that Irminenschaft be used to describe the expression of Heathenry—or ‘Germanic Neo-paganism was Wikipedia would have it—promoted by the Irminen-Gesellschaft and various small sippen (local groups).
The term Irmin-Kristianity as used for Wiligut’s work is well attested in a number of texts on the topic of Nazi mysticism. The term Irminenschaft, on the other hand, was coined by James Hjuka Coulter to describe our own expression of Germanic Heathenry.
As for ‘evidence,’ I am unsure as to what kind of ‘evidence’ you are seeking, but am glad to help any way that I can.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freysblot (talk • contribs).
There are two unrelated issues here:
- what is the best term for Wiligut's thing? "Irmin-Kristianity" is rather obscure (who coined the term? It doesn't appear to translate any German term of Wiligut's). "Irminenschaft" is taken from de:Irmin, but it is unclear if it is Wiligut's own term. "Irminism" or Wiligut's original Irminenreligion or Irminenglaube, Irminen-Glaube "Irmin Faith"[1] would be other possibilities.
- is the I-G notable enough to be included on Wikipedia? For this, see WP:V and in particular WP:RS. In general, we'd be happy with some ISBN'd publication, but clear online notability would also be sufficient. As it is, google generates some 200 hits, apart from irminenschaft.net and http://hjuka.zaadz.com/ , that is, sites controlled by I-G itself, I cannot see anything notable. There are a couple of links from white power groups like [2] and buddy links like [3]. The I-G mailing list generates some 2-3 messages a day. This is far from sufficient online notability, and you'd need to argue offline notability, such as, discussion and criticism in notable publications, significant impact on Germanic heathenism as a whole, etc. I'm not going to push this, and I'm happy to keep the article as about a book, which at least does have an ISBN. But I am afraid unless you show some sort of evidence that the "Irminen-Gesellschaft" is more than a circle of half a dozen friends, it is clearly below Wikipedia's notability threshold. At the very least, if you want to be on Wikipedia, you should put some sort of "about us" irminenschaft.net: how many chapters, how many members, history, etc. We could then at least say "according to their homepage". Which would still not satisfy "verifiability", since obviously Coulter can claim his group has any number of members on his page without anybody being able to check.
dab (𒁳) 19:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I believe Coulter is the editor of the Asatru Alliance's Vor Tru which has been around for 20 years or so. The AA has relatively more verifiability. Also, there's this: Coulter, Hjuka (2003). Germanic Heathenry. Authorhouse. ISBN 1-4107-6585-7. Amazon link - WeniWidiWiki 20:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- we have the 2003 book, Www. Asatru Alliance is certainly one of the more notable groups, and is discussed under Asatru. If Coulter edits their magazine too, I suppose we could either keep his article, or merge the information into Asatru. The "I-G" otoh begins to look like one of the numerous splits and secessions we get in neopaganism. If we can verify their existence, we can mention them in a list of grouplets, but I don't see any reason to keep a full article (already because we still have no verifiable information on it). dab (𒁳) 15:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, as things currently stand, I've stated my opinion further up the page. Merge (what little material we have) to Germanic neopaganism. However, this makes a thorny issue for the Irminenschaft entry: when was this term coined? By who? - WeniWidiWiki 16:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WikiPagan
Hello. I am an administrator at Wikipagan. I have copied the bio there and hope you can make contributions at the site.
Also, enjoyed the book you wrote and the journal you edit
--Tsmollet 00:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
