Talk:Jalil Mammadguluzadeh

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[edit] He is Iranian-Azerbaijani

His parents were both Iranians. Her father was ethnic Azeri however there is no information about her mother. Jalil was an Iranian-born Azerbaijani and saw himself as an Iranian as well as Azerbaijani. This is based on an article written by another Iranian Azeri satirist. He had huge impact on Iranian constitutional revolution and his magazine was popular throughout the country. Iranian cartoon art also emerged after him. Sangak 16:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Iranian is not an ethnicity, it is nationality. Mirza Jalil was an ethnic Azeri, born in Nakhichevan, died in BAku. 99% of his prose is written in Azeri. All his famous works are in Azeri. So he was Azerbaijani both in ethnicity and nationality. At the same time, he had a certain connection with Iran and lived there for a number of years, which should be mentioned in the article. But calling him Iranian writer is not accurate. Grandmaster 18:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition, the appropriate source currently cited is POV, being Persian and the only one. Moreover it appears in BBC news. --Brand спойт 01:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
How can his nationality have been Azeri? Azerbaijan was not a country yet in his life time. Shervink 12:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
It was. And he was an ethnic Azeri, who wrote in Azeri language. Grandmaster 17:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
It was not. Azerbaijan became an independent country in 1991. There was no Azeri nationality back then. Ethnicity and language, as you correctly mention, are different matters. Shervink 12:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
He was an ethnic Azeri. And Azerbaijan became independent in 1918, and was occupied by Bolsheviks in 1920, and since then existed as Azerbaijan SSR until 1991. So Azerbaijani nationality existed too. Grandmaster 12:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
At that time nobody used the term nation to refer to Azerbaijan. If you have any sources where he refers to himself az an Azeri national, please provide them. On a related note, why is an article POV merely because it is written in Persian and published by the BBC? I don't understand this reasoning!
Maybe I should clarify this: There's no question of course about his ethnicity. My comment deals with your assertion above that he is an Azeri both in ethnicity and nationality. I disagree with the second. Shervink 12:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
Where does the article say anything about his nationality? He was a Russian and Soviet citizen, apparently even when he lived in Tebriz. The article contains some strange line about Iranian descent, which needs to be clarified. He was of Iranian Azeri descent, but Russian/Soviet citizen, who was born, grew up and died in north Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 12:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I was referring to your post on 5 January 2007 on this talk page, look a few lines above, where you said that So he was Azerbaijani both in ethnicity and nationality. Why do you find that statement about Iranian descent strange? His parents were Iranians after all. Shervink 12:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
Yes, Iranian nationals, who became Russian nationals. But whatever, we need to discuss the edits to the article, and not personal opinions. Grandmaster 13:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
That's right. So do you agree with describing him as an Iranian-Azerbaijani? Shervink 13:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
No, he was born in Nakhichevan, Russian Azerbaijan, but his parents were Iranian Azerbaijanis. So he was North Azerbaijani, but his parents moved from the South. Grandmaster 13:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
But one of the article's references (BBC analysis) says he proudly identified himself as an Iranian. That should be included in the article. Shervink 14:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
How's that possible if he was not even an Iranian citizen and wrote in Azeri? I think we need to find better source than BBC Persian. Wiki rules recommend cross-referencing the info. Grandmaster 17:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It is quite clear. The fact is that the big majority of Azeri's in the world live in Iran (not in North Azerbaijan) and see themselves as Iranian. Naturally when they migrate to another country their children may identify themselves as Iranian too. Sangak Talk 11:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

first off, there is no evidence of him being "Iranian-Azerbaijani", although that would hardly surprize anyone, as population migrated north and south of Araxes all the time. However, he was born in Naxcivan, educated in Georgia, working in Erivan (today's capital of Armenia) and died in Baku, thus being fully Azerbaijani without any direct personal links to Iran. This is attested not only by Great Soviet Encyclopedia (in Russian) [1], but also Great Encyclopedic Dictionary (in Russian) [2], and Russian RIA news agency in 2005 [3] and Interfax news agency in 2007, which writes about the celebrations in Naxcivan of his birthday: [4]

Also, he was an active campaigner for changing the Azerbaijani alphabet from Arabic to Latin: "Дж. Мамедкулизаде был избран кандидатом в члены АзЦИК, являлся активным членом Комитета нового алфавита, в составе правительственной делегации ездил по республикам с целью распространения латинизированного алфавита." [5] (a nice story with scans of magazine covers is here: [6]) Another interesting piece of info is that he translated L.N.Tolstoy into Azerbaijani and in general was very fond of him [7].

Here it mentions more about the House-Museum of Mamedguluzadeh in Baku: [8]. Finally, here a prof. from Naxcivan analyzes the impact of Mamedguluzade's role as editor and his journal, Molla Nasredin, as awakening the Turkic world. He also mentions that the special decree of the President of Azerbaijan on celebrating the 100th anniversary of the journal [9].

Meanwhile, that he published some Iranian-specific articles, such as in 1906, is not surprizing -- everyone in the region was energized by the revolution in Iran, by Bagirkhan, Sattarkhan, etc.

Also, the etnonym 'Azerbaijani' has been used since the 19th century -- Russian Orientalist Berzhe used it already in 1861, for example. The Russian encyclopedia (started publication in 1890), Brokgauz and Efron, also uses that name, as do British scholars of the time. Although all this is not really dependent on when did the etnonym first began to be used -- it's obvious to everyone that the Turks of Caucasus and North Iran, who have been misnamed as "Tatars" by Russians from 1828, are the Azerbaijanis, and can be called as such long before 1918 (the proclamation of ADR's independence). Also, consider this: since "Iran", as the name for the country that was commonly known as Persia to outsiders and officially as dowlat-e Safawi/Afshar/Qajar/Pehlevi, was officially adopted only in 1935 by Shah Pahlavi. Thus, "Iran" and "Iranian", by the same token as "Azerbaijani" and "Azerbaijan", cannot be used to describe anyone/anything from "Persia" from before 1935. Meanwhile, calling an ethnically non-Persian as "Persia" is imprecise. --AdilBaguirov 19:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The above facts and links should be made part of the article. Meanwhile, there are several references to some "Nabavi", yet no link to it and no real citation. Either make it in comformity with academic and Wiki encyclopedic standards, or all those references and claims should be removed. --AdilBaguirov 19:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Khorshid claims that Jalil Mamedguluzade was an Iranian writer, while Jalil spent most of his life in North Azerbaijan, where he was born and died, and wrote in Azerbaijani language. How come he was Iranian? Grandmaster 05:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
When Iranian scholars such as Iraj Parsinejad claim that Mirza Fatali Akhundov (Akhundzade) is "the Founder of Modern Literary Criticism in Iran" (despite being born and dying in North Azerbaijan), writing mostly in Azerbaijani Turkish, and considering himself Azerbaijani (and parents being Turkic, and indeed, Iraj Parsinejad acknowledging all this), having similar claims about Mamedguluzade is not surprising. Yet, unsubstantiated and false -- Mamedguluade, just like Akhundov, was an Azerbaijani writer and famous figure -- there is more than enough evidence of that, some of which was presented above. --AdilBaguirov 05:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Nabavi is an ethnic Persian writer who wrote in Persian -- and even though its on BBC Persian, that's still a Persian source. There is also BBC Azerbaijani, but no one is quoting it here. There is no independent evidence for the claims of Nabavi. --AdilBaguirov 19:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Please calm down. Nabavi is a proud Azeri. BBC is not Iranian. No one says Jalil was not Azerbaijani. He had roots in both Azerbaijan (a part of Russia) and Iran (country). Please do not delete sourced information. Russian and Azeri sources have no superiority over Persian sources. Sangak Talk 19:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Please calm down yourself. Nabavi is Persian. BBC Persian is run by ethnically Persian editors and writes all in Persian language. And what is the quote you refer to and what's its translation? That claim is unsupported -- he was born in Naxcivan (Azerbaijan), lived and died in Azerbaijan. Meanwhile, he was not a citizen of Iran, nor is there an "Iranian" ethnicity -- one can be Persian, Kurdish, Lur, Baluchi, or Azerbaijani ethnically, but not Iranian (only in terms of nationality and citizenship). Since Mamedguluzade was not an Iranian citizen, and was not of Persian or other Iranic-ethnicity, and indeed, was not even from Fars or other Persian regions of the Iranian Plateau, he thus cannot be called Iranian. You sourced info, a sole reference to some Nabavi, is unsubstantiated and POV. --AdilBaguirov 19:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • "Nabavi is Persian"! Please cite your claim.
And you cite any proof that he is ethnic Azerbaijani.
  • The article was written by Prince Claus Award winning Azeri satirist and researcher. No doubt he is among the most qualified people in the field.
So this satirist is expert in geneology? And what is "Prince Claus"?
  • "he was not a citizen of Iran". Please cite your claim. According to the Iranian law, all children born to an Iranian parent or parents are automatically granted the Iranian citizenship no matter what shall be the naturalization law of the birth place.
All sources say he was born in Naxcivan: This is attested not only by Great Soviet Encyclopedia (in Russian) [10], but also Great Encyclopedic Dictionary (in Russian) [11], and Russian RIA news agency in 2005 [12] and Interfax news agency in 2007, which writes about the celebrations in Naxcivan of his birthday: [13]This means he was citizen of Russian Empire, and later of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR), and later of Azerbaijan SSR, and then of USSR.
  • He identified himself as Iranian as well as an ethnic Azeri. (same source in the article) He was proficient in Persian language.
Many people are/were proficient in Persian language. Myself and you are proficient in English -- doesn't mean we are citizens, or of Australian, UK, South African, or USA origin. Never saw his "identification" of himself as Iranian -- where, when? In which of his articles? Title, date and page number, please.
Wrong. He was born, technically, in Russian Empire (although no one would seriously try to dispute that being born in Naxcivan doesn't constitute Azerbaijan but instead "Russia"), but died in Azerbaijan SSR -- which was, technically, a fully independent republic of the USSR, with its own flag, coat of arms, parliament, constitution, and even foreign representation (such as in Iran).

Thanks. Sangak Talk 19:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Mamedguluzade was not an Iranian-Azerbaijani, so none of the above applies. He has a stronger change of being called Russian-Azerbaijani or Soviet-Azerbaijani, than Iranian-Azerbaijani. --AdilBaguirov 08:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Here is my citation about Ebrahim Nabavi. Provide your citation that says he is Persian! Or apologize for telling lies.
I don't care about Wikipedia citation -- someone like you can make changes to this obscure article at anytime. I see no evidence of him being ethnic Azerbaijani. Also, what "lies"? I have no reason to believe the Azerbaijani origin of this journalist -- is that a crime? Why is that a "telling lies"?!
OK, thanks. But means little, to tell the truth -- you presented it like it's equivalent of Pulitzer or Nobel Literature Prize, whilst there are many such small-time prizes.
  • He was a citizen of Russia (until his death in USSR) and automatic citizen of Iran as his parents were Iranian citizen (according to Iranian law).
No, in order to be a citizen, you have to take an oath and have official documents, passport. He could not have had it as he was born in Azerbaijan, and had first Russian Empire's passport, then Azerbaijan's (ADR) and then Azerbaijani Soviet passport. Also, where is the proof that his parents were from Iran? Again Nabavi's article in Persian? Also, you seem to confuse certain legal concepts -- in many contries, including Azerbaijan, if your parents are citizens of that country, you have the right to become a citizen too. But you need to apply for it -- otherwise, you will stay the citizen of only that country in which you were born.
  • So what? Azerbaijan was not a country at that time and you can not compare it with Iran as a country.
I beg to differ. As stated above, Azerbaijan was a country -- look at the USSR Constitution, for God's sake, where you will see that it could (theoretically) leave USSR at any time. As I said, it had its own ministries, parliament, anthem, coat of arms, constitution, laws, and even foreign representation. And considering that in 1920s and even in 1940s it was, technically, Azerbaijan SSR that occupied northern Iran. It is thus indeed hard to compare Iran to Azerbaijan.
  • Children of Iranian parents who are born in country X, are Iranian-X.
Where's the proof that his parents were from Iran? Also, even if they would have been, they gave up that citizenship in favor of Russian and later Azerbaijani (ADR and Soviet). And once again, see above -- having the RIGHT (being eligible) to become a citizen doesn't mean he CLAIMED that citizenship.
  • He identified himself as Iranian as well as an ethnic Azeri. (same source in the article) That's it. I also liked the way you compared Persian and English.
Where does it say that? Only in your Nabavi article in Persian -- and I've asked you to provide that specific quote in Persian and to translate it into English. He could not have been Iranian while being ethnic Azerbaijani and yet citizen of Russia and later Azerbaijan! This is nonsense! This is not supported by any available references.
  • "You sourced info, a sole reference to some Nabavi, is unsubstantiated and POV." !!!! How about "Hasan Guliyev", "Azerbaijan International ", "Shexsiyyeter.nakhchivan.az" and "Russian encyclopedia"?!
Yes, Soviet and Russian encyclopedias are far more unbiased than any Iranian source -- do you really want to debate that?
  • In the article, he is considered "Azerbaijani from Iranian descent". See for example Category:Canadians of American descent and similar pages. Is "American" an ethnicity ? Jalil was from Iranian descent, a national of USSR and ethnic Azeri who studied in the Republic of Georgia. That's it.
I have no problem with this if you can prove it. That's all I've been asking from you -- where's the proof? You only have one Iranian journalist who wrote in Persian, that's it.
  • It is very interesting to see you can not tolerate "Azerbaijani of Iranian descent", a very neutral and cited statement in the article. I don't want to waste my time on such obvious issues. I have also no problem with calling him "Iranian-Russian of ethnic Azeri" or "Russian writer of Iranian Azeri descent". The fact that his is of "Iranian descent" must be included.

Sangak Talk 09:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It can be included only if proven. And what is "Iranian descent"? He was not of "Iranian descent", even if his parents (one of them? both?) were from Iran. Being from Iran and being of Iranian descent -- are different things. Are Jews of Iran considered of "Iranian descent"? No. Likewise, if you prove that his parents were from Iran (Khoy), that's how it should state -- "Jalil Mamedguluzade's ethnically Azerbaijani parents moved from the city of Khoy, Iran, to Azerbaijan, Russian Empire, in the last quarter of 19th century."
Again, the debate is strictly about one thing -- verifiable and authoritative evidence, as well as precise representation. --AdilBaguirov 09:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

What is all the fuss about? His family was from Iran, which means he was of Iranian descent, and obviously that should be stated in the article. Regarding the fact that he referred to himself as an Iranian, I don't see why we should not trust the BBC. The BBC is, as far as I know, a reputable source by wikipedia standards and is used for many articles. If anybody disagrees they should ask an administrator to look into the matter. Shervink 10:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

It is actually recomended to cross-reference the info. Do you have any third-party (non-Iranian) source that states he refered to himself as Iranian? And if indeed considered himself an Iranian, why did he leave that country and moved to Baku, where he lived till he died? Grandmaster 11:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
That's not relevant to our discussion. There is no need to have citation for something (self-identification) that has not been mentioned in the article!! The BBC citation is the most neutral and reliable citation we have now in the article. Your last question is not helpful either. Sangak Talk 11:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Grandmaster's comment, again, I don't think that being written in Persian makes a source unreliable. As for the second question, many people live in countries other than Iran and still refer to themselves as Iranians. There's nothing strange about this. Shervink 12:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
A source in Persian language written in Persian makes the source unreliable. It is the only such source which contravenes all third-party sources about the origin of Mamedguluzadeh. --adil 23:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Mammadguluzade was Azerbaijani -- all sources make that clear. Even if his grandparents would be from Khoy -- notice "even if" -- that still leaves him of Azerbaijani origin, descent, heritage and birth. Hence, saying TWICE that he is of "Iranian descent" and his family is from "Iran" whilst overlooking and not stating "Azeri/Azerbaijan/Azerbaijani" is not correct. My version states everything exactly the way they were written. --adil 05:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, since Iranian is not ethnicity, he was of Iranian Azerbaijani descent. Grandmaster 10:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, first off, I've asked several times to have that Ebrahim Nabavi quote provided to us, with a translation. That was not done. Secondly, just this one Iranian source cannot overpower all other third-party sources. Third, Jalil was both ethnic Azerbaijani and a national Azerbaijani writer/satirist. As such, he is Azerbaijani. Fourth, no matter whether NAbavi is referred to correctly and if his Khoy information is correct, that does not make Jalil "of Iranian descent" -- at best, it makes his parents "ethnic Azerbaijanis from Khoy, Iran". As you see, my version preserves the unverified claim of his parents being supposedly from Khoy, but it obviously corrects the mistaken info about Jalil being "of Iranian descent", which he was not. --adil 08:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Again, being written in Persian does not discredit a source. Can you show me any wikipedia guideline which relates the validity of a source to its language? Shervink 09:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)shervink
I am not discrediting the source, but asking 1) to properly identify it (i.e,. "according to Ebrahim Nabavi, a British-Iranian journalist, ..." and 2) provide us the actual quote in Farsi with a translation into English. --adil 09:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Jalil was not and could not have been of Iranian origin, as he was born in Azerbaijan, not Iran, and Iranian is not an ethnicity. But more important for Wikipedia, all verifiable sources say he was Azerbaijani. All those links should not be removed -- is there any problem with them? --adil 05:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've again re-instated the evidence after an IP anon removed it. --adil 07:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
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