Talk:Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

↓ Skip to table of contents ↓

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (`~~~~`). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

Religion Portal

This article is supported by WikiProject Religion. This project provides a central approach to Religion-related subjects on wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.

This article has been rated as B on the Project's quality scale. See comments

	This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Muslim scholars article assessment section, a WikiProject related to the Muslim scholars. note:the project includes non-Muslim scholars.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

	Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale.

	After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Afghanistan-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.

Biography Portal

This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	To-do list for Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi:	edit · history · watch · refresh
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

Archives
Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 23:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 - Archived on December 7, 2006 Archive 2 - To be Archived on ...

[edit] Comments

[edit] Homoeroticism in Rumi

Perhaps I've missed any relevant material, but I haven't seen mention of the rather homosexual overtones within Rumi's tomes of poetry. They were certainly a contentious issue then and now. --AWF —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.154.26 (talk) 02:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

can you point to any specific examples?

[edit] Why didn't you sign? -homo-eroticism reputation of Rumi

See here for reasons why people say this: http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=399&discussionID=348092

http://www.amazon.com/History-Gay-Literature-Male-Tradition/dp/product-description/0300072015

http://rumi.tribe.net/thread/f2df274e-19c6-460f-b3ad-28b8c7ff698c

http://www.khamush.com/bio.htm

http://www.gaytoday.com/pressroom/ReadPR.asp?id=56

http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/masters/Rumi/Life-Rumi.asp

Why are people afraid of homo-eroticism in Rumi??? Arbol25 21:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rumi as a perfect human

The notion of the perfect human is so much higher than the level rumi reached... Though he was an amazing man, one who has reached very high levels of humanity and spirituality (much more than normal people)... he was still far far far away from being a perfect human or an Infallible —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.97.51.112 (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Persian literature or another literatures

Because Movlavi(Rumi) books are in Persian, it must be arranged in Persian literature category. How do you arrange him in other literature categories when all his books are in Persian. If you want to arrange him in another literature, first please go to literature page and declare a new definition for literature satisfy your claim. The second think I must say is that for Movlavi(Rumi), language and tribe was not important. He believe idea is important not language, as he says
ای بسا هندو و ترک هم زبان
ای بسا دو ترک چون بيگانگان
پس زبان محرمی خود دیگراست
هم دلی از هم زبانی بهتر است

There are many Turks and Hindu understand each other well(have the same language)
There are so many couples of Turks that don't understand each other.(don't have a common language)
So the language of mutual understanding is something else
Having common ideas is more important than having the same language.

I know atleast he once talks about language and he says:

پارسی گو، گرچه تازی خوشتر است
عشق را خود صد زبان ديگر است

Speak Persian, though Arabic is nicer
The language of love(I mean عشق in Persian) is another

I know my translation is full of error. I apolagize for this bad translation. If you know Persian and English perfectly. I'll be glad to fix them.

--Soroush83 13:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"No language can be superior to another. Just like no nation can be superior to another. Take time to read on the development of the Turkish language and see how the Republic of Turkey respects all languages and nations in the world. Just like what the Mevlevi Order followed. And thanks to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk"
--Atalana 22:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah ... I guess that's why Kurds, Armenians and Greeks have such a good time in Turkey, right?! Tājik 22:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

- (Personal attack removed) Visit Turkey, if you can bear it without getting sick in the stomach from jealousy, to see how Armenians, Greeks, Jews, and Kurds live much much more freely than the Azeris, Kurds, and Arabs of your country. - Ur

And don't remove from the article a person who is currently a highly influential Dede in the Mevlana Order. And remember Mevlana had to flee the Persian Empire due to the protection from the Mongolians and he found peace in the Seljuk Empire which is a Turkish Empire, a breeding ground for the Ottoman Empire both economically and socially. He settled in Konya and gave the world an important way of thinking Sufisim. Yes by race he can be Persian if it is that important but due to his influence to the Turkish Society we regard just like one of us. Just like Rumi would have expected to be.

And remember Tājik get a life!

Atalana 15:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

@ Ur: there are actually no Azeris, Kurds, or Arabs in my country ... and, for your information, I have been in Turkey once. Really nice country with nice people ... but the Kurdish- and Armenian problem is still there. And believe me: Kurds have certainly a better life in fundamentalist Iran (I guess that's the country you think I am from) than in secular, anti-Kurdish Turkey. Just check the latest news Tājik 16:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right, lecture us then how your country is so democratic, that maybe Turkey can learn some lessons from it. (Personal attack removed) Your portrayal of Kurds, Armenians, and Greeks not having good time there is a big lie. Not all Kurds support the separatists and their teroristic tactics in Turkey. I am a Kurd and live very happily in Turkey. Plus, Turkey has made and is making strides in resolving some of the problematic issues. BTW, your "latest news" dates 7-8 years back, and somehow you presuppose (or would have us believe) that it is all the fault of Turks and their army, not looking at the issue of terrorism... -Ur

@ Atalanta: I have not deleted of Marcan Dede, I have moved it to the bottom of the article. So not place his name on top of the list, because there are other, more important personalities linked to Rumi and his works. Btw: the Seljuqs were not a "Turkish Empire", but a Sunni Muslim Empire that traced it's origin to the Turkic Oghuz tribes of Central Asia ... among others (they also claimed to be descendants of the prophet, and direct descendants of the Iranian Sassanid Shahs). The Seljuqs were not the beginning of the Turkic history in Anatolia, but the Beyliqs of Karaman - they were the first kingdom to pomote Turkish language an a unique Turkish national identity in Anatolia. The Seljuqs were Persianate - in language, culture, and identity. Tājik 16:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"...the Seljuqs were not a Turkish Empire." Please stop playing with words, and read some objective history. Why is it that you cannot stomach certain historical facts. Just because the Seljuqs spoke Persian and embraced certain elements of Persian culture, it does not make them non-Turks. Well... if it will make you feel good, then be my guest...-Ur

I didn't say any language or culture is superior to another. I just told some poems of Movlavi(Rumi) that shows his idea about language. Of course movlavi is Persian and his main works are Persian as well. I think I'd better not to discuss here in this way. If you have any reliable citation that says movlavi is not Persian, then we can discuss them.--Soroush83 19:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks--Soroush83 19:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

@ Ur: funny that suddenly you do not regard language as the main deffinition for ethnicity. Because in all other articles, Turks persist that "whoever spoke a Turkic language was also a Turk": see Timurids, for example, or Golden Horde. These peoples were Mongols in ethnicity, yet, Turkish nationalists continue to call them "Turks" ... only becazse these peoples were (partly) Turkic in language. Just take a look at this POV site: List of Turkic states. You should also pay attention to this historical quote about the Seljuqs:

"... From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears: namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race utterly alienated from God, a generation, forsooth, which has neither directed its heart nor entrusted its spirit to God, has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by sword, pillage, and fire. ..." - Pope Urban II, Proclamation at Clermont, 1095

Not even the contemporaries of the Seljuqs considered them "Turks" ... you see that?

Tājik 20:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean I suddenly do not regard language as the main definition for ethnicity? I never claimed such a thing, and I don't care about what others say. (Personal attack removed) As far as the ethnicity of Seljuqs, my friend you either do not know what you are talking about or deluding yourself just like those "nationalistic Turks" you are talking about, only this time you are a "Persian nationalist." The seljuqs were the Turks who made it possible for other Turks (for better or worse) to settle in anatolia. Please read history written by non-nationalistic scholars such as the Western scholars, perhaps. Another thing is that you speak about the Mongols. The Turks and the Mongols are closely related races, my friend. Chengiz Khan's army mainly consisted of Turks.

Also you are quoting from Urban II. Obviously, I am startled. There are many versions of Urban II's speech. Here is a website which, if you read, mentions six versions of the speech. The website starts with this:

"In 1094 or 1095, Alexios I Komnenos, the Byzantine emperor, sent to the pope, Urban II, and asked for aid from the west against the Seljuq Turks, who taken nearly all of Asia Minor from him. At the council of Clermont Urban addressed a great crowd and urged all to go to the aid of the Greeks and to recover Palestine from the rule of the Muslims. The acts of the council have not been preserved, but we have five accounts of the speech of Urban which were written by men who were present and heard him."

if you already did not visit it:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html

Lastly, I am just shocked how some people can object to even what the historians established as hard facts. (Personal attack removed) the Ottomans also used the Persian language extensively, they loved the Persian language. So what do you say maybe they were also, hmmm, Persians? :))) The bad news is that they used the Arabic language also (not to mention the Turkish), and in fact, they adapted more of Arabic culture then the Persian. So don't tell the Arabs, ok?:)) -Ur

[edit] Quotes by Rumi

Does Wikiquotes have quotes by Rumi? If so, can someone who knows how add a link or box? If not, what about adding a quote section here until it gets so unwieldy we should move it to Wikiquotes? :)

Yes, it does, and it's linked waaay at the bottom.DBlomgren 15:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking for a French translation of the quote below. If anyone knows of one, let me know. I see the article has links to translations in English and Swedish.
The argument about whether Rumi was Turkish or Persian is so ironic. See the quote below.

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even the phrase "each other" doesn't make any sense."

- Rumi

DBlomgren 04:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rumi's portrayal as a Persian Philosopher

I find it very discriminative to categorazie a man of such values to humanity just as ethnic Persian based on his birthplace and language of his literature.

This is an insult to the people whom Rumi lived with for the most of his life.

Remember that Persian was the language of arts of his time, and men of learning, including the Ottoman Sultans of later era wrote only in Persian instead of Turkish. That fact does not make them Persian. It is only normal to assume that modern day Iranians indocrinated with poisonous racism; whom even claim the Safavids (who only knew Turkish language) to be Persian, to claim the racial elements crucial for the long term existence of their vile regime. They are no different or better than the Turkish Grey Wolves. Racism only pollutes the history.

Please remove the Persian racial references as there is no room for 20th century petty nationalism in the article of a man who embraced all of humanity. Cruist22 04:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rumi

He was not from Rum, he moved to Rum later in life.Azerbaijani 02:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rumi is a TURKISH man

Although Rumi has written all his assays in Persian Language,he in his MESNEVI in all the 6 volumes he always has stated that he was a TURKISH man. This is very clear. By his time some of the thinkers were writing their assays in ARABIC or in Persian languages. But this does not show that RUMI was an Persian...He was born in HORASAN in that time Horasan was in MAVERAUNNEHIR,in two rivers,this area was West Turkistan...It has no relation with Persia at all.

And Rumi lived in Konya a TURKISH city, that time this city was under the SELJUK RULE. SELJUKS were TURKISH ...No relation with Persia...

So please lets be honest, after Rumi`s Death his followers and his sons built the MEVLEVI TARIQAT. Still Mevlevis make their SEMAS in KONYA...

So Rumi was a real TURKISH MAN. He was not a Persian. But he has used only Persian Language.Since Persian and Arabic languages were assumed the languages of literature of that time.

21 February 2007 Bothi 22:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Not true. Rumi's name is Rumi because majority were Greeks. Seljuqs were Persianized thoroughly. But if this is sufficient we have direct statement from Rumi's son that he did not know Turkish and Greek well and he is more comfortable in Arabic and Persian. (Despite being born in modern Turkey). Plus Rumi's fathers work contains archaic Persian words and thus proves he was actually from Vakhsh as proposed by Franklin. By the way Khorasan is different than Mawa-an-Nahr. --alidoostzadeh 01:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"Rumi's name is Rumi because majority were Greeks". It is not correct. Look at old maps: You will see Anatolia as "Turchia", because majority was Turkish, or "Diyar-ı Rum", "Sultanate of Rum" meaning that lands of Rome. Fatih has also the name "Kayser-i Rum", (Ceasar of Rome). Rum means Anatolia, and Rumi is equivalent to saying Turkish. Rum indicates these lands are former Roman Empire. Also, Ottoman Empire is the successor of Roman Empire. (This is information on what Rumi means, not about Mevlana, himself.Paparokan 20:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Rumi as a language is used for Greek. When Mowlana's son talks about not knowing Rumi and Turkish languages well, he means Greek by Rumi. Also Turkey is a modern name, the old name is Ottoman empire in the west. Iranians called it Rome during the Safavid era. Rumi's name comes from the fact that he migrated from Khorasan(Born in Vakhsh in Tajikistan and migrated to Balkh in Afghanistan) and from Balkh to Rum (Greece). --alidoostzadeh 22:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong again. See Halil Inalcık book "Tarihçilerin Kutbu", page 156.

Rumi is equivalent to Anatolian, or Turkish. Ottoman Empire was given the name of Rumi in India, Indonesia, Arabia. Name for Anatolia is Biladurrum in Arabic languages. Rumi also means Anatolian Turkish muskeeters in Indian Babur Empire in 1500's. India is conquered by these Rumi soldiers. Rumi's second meaning is Anatolian, or Turkish(from Turkey). Rumi in Mowlana' name does not refer to benig Greek, but refer to being Anatolian. In West Ottoman Empire was knowns as Turkey, it is a very old name. (See the map on Balkan Wars, also there are older maps in which Anatolia is called Turkey.) In summary, Turkey was known as Turkey in West, and Rum in East in history. Paparokan 13:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Fact is Ottomans did not used Turkey. --alidoostzadeh 15:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, yes.Paparokan 16:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

yes he is turkish. in one of his poems he describes himself as turkish.

[edit] Formatting

It looks like this page needs some major re-formatting work. There are multiple sections for references, footnotes, and bibliographies, as an example. Any volunteers for a cleanup effort? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.255.168 (talk) 00:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] He was Persian

The word Tajik should be removed from the introduction because he was Iranian-Persian. Tajik's are Persians living in Tajikistan and other parts of Central Asia. In Rumi's time Balkh was still apart of Iran. Also, His name should not be written in Turkish because that is irrelevent. He was not Turkic, he did not speak Turkish and never once wrote a word in Turkish. Dariush4444 22:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The Turkish spelling should be mentioned, because nowadays, most of his followers live in Turkey. The term "Tajik" is mentioned in Rumi's poetry and was the common name given to Persian during his life-time. Tājik 02:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I thought he is usually called Molavi in Farsi. Does anyone know? Frail Elf 05:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

He is known as "Molavi" in the Tehran dialect. But that is not the correct Persian transliteration. The correct pronounciation is Mawlānā and Mawlawī. Tājik 00:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If he is known as Rumi, shouldn't that be the title? Are the naming conventions different for the personal names? deniz^T_C 22:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Really, why don't we move it to Rumi? deniz^T_C 17:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Because that's only a nickname. Accross the Persian-speaking world, he is known as "Mowlana", and his real name was "Jalal ud-Din". Tājik 20:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

But this is English wikipedia, so it should be moved. deniz^T_C 21:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not think so. The word "Rumi" should be a redirection. The current name is OK. Tājik 21:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind so much but are you not going against the rules, conventions? deniz^T_C 23:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../j/a/l/Talk%7EJalal_ad-Din_Muhammad_Rumi_e0f6.html"