Talk:Jack Tramiel
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The statement "His father died of Typhus in the work camp like many other inmates, although Tramiel believes he was killed by an injection of gasoline." is not clear to this new Wikipedian, no expert on Tramiel or even the Holocaust. Is the reader to understand that "Like many other inmates, his father was reported to have died of Typhus in the work camp; however, Tramiel believes he was killed by an injection of gasoline." or that "Evidence that his father succumbed to the Typhus that killed many inmates in the work camp appears convincing to many scholars but Tramiel disputes this, claiming he was instead murdered by an injection of gasoline." or even "While there can be little doubt that his father actually died of Typhus, as did many other inmates in the work camp, Tramiel's contrary claim of assassination by gasoline injection is one examply of the mythomania for which he is notorious." Perhaps a rephrasing could better hint at some complicated underlying truth, although there may be a larger lurking controversy around which we are tiptoeing with this compromise sentence. In any case, it sure struck me as an odd way of phrasing it. Ph7five 12:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
- However it winds up being phrased, make sure that it maintains NPOV. Don't confuse healthy neutrality with "compromise" or weasel sentences. -Fadookie Talk | contrib 10:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Confusing facts around the Atari/Amiga relations
In the section "Atari" the sentences "When Tramiel purchased Atari, Commodore stepped in and bought the Amiga technology outright. The Tramiel-owned Atari decided to create their own 16-bit home computer." are in conflict with the facts that are stated in the article Did Atari attempt to acquire Amiga? —This unsigned comment was added by 147.232.75.61 (talk • contribs) .
[edit] references needed
The article is lacking in references; though I suspect most are to the website and book listed below. There are quite a few other online sources of info, plus another book written about Tramiel (in circa late 1980's). Also, some of this seems to be written from a "friendly" POV, not a neutral POV - all the controversial aspects seem to be glossed over or ignored. That said, the book referenced looks to be very well done (and I know a lot of the principals mentioned). jesup 22:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're refering to with "controversial" points, and I hope you don't mean the missinformation put out by RJ Mical regarding the whole Atari/Amiga fiasco. I took out two of the citation requests, because that info was already covered in the cited "On the Edge Book" by Brian Bagnall (which I contributed to as well). The name issue (Tramel instead of Tramiel) is common knowlege and the spelling is used on all SEC filings, the quote used in reference is from an interview with Leonard Tramiel a number of years ago (a portion of which is published at ClassicGaming.Com). The Japanese comment is also from the same interview, and Jack's desire to compete against the Japanese was also well documented as a driving force during his Commodore days as well going all the way back to Commodore's calculator days (also covered in said book, as well as numerous online Commodore history sites with direct quotes from him such as [1]). So I'm not sure why him being ultra-competitive towards the Japanese is being contested. It was also a view held in public opinion at the time as evidenced by [2]. As for the executives leaving in protest, it is documented here and here (under the blurb "2 MACHINES CHALLENGE I.B.M."). --Marty Goldberg 06:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- It sounds like you have references, but they should be in the article, not here on the talk page. He is a somewhat controversial figure in business history, and many histories of the company from different sources mention the controversies surrounding him. While not appropriate for a Wiki page (WP:NOR), I know a quite a few of the people involved, and they give a very different picture than some parts of this page. I've done some quick looking and have found at least a half a dozen additional WP:RS that can be used to improve the article. A good start before I begin editing might be for you to make a pass adding references, which should help avoid mistakes in future editing. An editor coming into this article does not see obvious sourcing. WP:BLP encourages you to have as many references as possible in this sort of case. Thanks! jesup 11:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Randell, I'm certainly aware of how controversial he is regarding business. My main focus in relation to this crossover of subjects has been on TTL and his Atari years (and that's the era where a lot of my aquaintences regarding him are as well, such as Joe Decuir, who was all but erased from Amiga history until I brought to light his involvement. He had to lay low at the time because of having the unique distinction of being employed at both Amiga and Atari Inc. at the time of this changeover). So if you have additional resources previous to that have fun! I'd just caution that while there are a lot of negative stories, not all are accurate or hold water when actually researched, and that remember to ballance it as WP is meant to be neutral. There's an imbalance of negative stories/resources out there, so I always try and ballance the positive and negative with regards to him. As you can see from my contributions listing, I'm not new to WP and am familiar with the references process. However, because I contribute to such a wide ammount of articles and have a busy "real life" schedule, I can't always get to every task that needs to be done when I should. I'll try and add them in later today. By the way, how did you enjoy your time at Amiga? What did you do there? --Marty Goldberg 14:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- 1988-1994. The "deathbed vigil" party immortalized by Dave Haynie (and Dale Larson) was held at my house, where we burned Mehdi Ali in effigy. It was a blast overall, though with lots of painful moments along the way. The rebuilt Amiga team (almost everyone was let go in circa 1986-1987) was an amazingly strong group, led by people like Jeff Porter, Bryce Nesbitt, Dave Haynie, Andy Finkel, myself and later Mike Sinz. A number of the original Amiga people consulted or worked with us at times (Dale Luck, Bob 'Kodiak' Burns, the guy who replaced RJ on Intuition and more recently was a major person in creating "The Sims", Carl Sassenrath, the guy who designed "Paula". Considering how badly we were outnumbered by people like Microsoft and Apple we did an amazing job. I inherited the role of Head of the OS group after Bryce and later Mike left. jesup 16:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Randell, I'm certainly aware of how controversial he is regarding business. My main focus in relation to this crossover of subjects has been on TTL and his Atari years (and that's the era where a lot of my aquaintences regarding him are as well, such as Joe Decuir, who was all but erased from Amiga history until I brought to light his involvement. He had to lay low at the time because of having the unique distinction of being employed at both Amiga and Atari Inc. at the time of this changeover). So if you have additional resources previous to that have fun! I'd just caution that while there are a lot of negative stories, not all are accurate or hold water when actually researched, and that remember to ballance it as WP is meant to be neutral. There's an imbalance of negative stories/resources out there, so I always try and ballance the positive and negative with regards to him. As you can see from my contributions listing, I'm not new to WP and am familiar with the references process. However, because I contribute to such a wide ammount of articles and have a busy "real life" schedule, I can't always get to every task that needs to be done when I should. I'll try and add them in later today. By the way, how did you enjoy your time at Amiga? What did you do there? --Marty Goldberg 14:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- It sounds like you have references, but they should be in the article, not here on the talk page. He is a somewhat controversial figure in business history, and many histories of the company from different sources mention the controversies surrounding him. While not appropriate for a Wiki page (WP:NOR), I know a quite a few of the people involved, and they give a very different picture than some parts of this page. I've done some quick looking and have found at least a half a dozen additional WP:RS that can be used to improve the article. A good start before I begin editing might be for you to make a pass adding references, which should help avoid mistakes in future editing. An editor coming into this article does not see obvious sourcing. WP:BLP encourages you to have as many references as possible in this sort of case. Thanks! jesup 11:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
