Talk:Józef Łukaszewicz

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An entry from Józef Łukaszewicz appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 22 February 2007.

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Contents 1 Two Articles for this person 2 Name 3 After graduating from a local gymnasium.... 4 Name revisited 5 Citation of 64 English-language Google hits on Józef Łukaszewicz 6 Claiming Lithuanian 7 RFArb

[edit] Two Articles for this person

There are two articles for Juozas Lukoševičius - the other has the name spelled 'Juozas Lukoševicius' (the last 'c' has no diacrital mark). They're both stubs - I don't know which one is spelled correctly.

John

Redirected. Thanks for the heads up! Renata 18:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Some sources to guide us:

• English only Google search: Józef Łukaszewicz 64 vs Juozas Lukoševičius 31
• Google Print search: Józef Łukaszewicz 124 and Jozef Lukaszewicz 9 vs Juozas Lukoševičius 2. Move to the Polish spelling seems supported by majority of printed soruces and most of web ones, too.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Once again misinterpretations and misleading suggestions, first of all - this link yields not 2 hits as user:Piotrus trying to present to us but 31, second he once again failed to notice that in Google Print search Józef Łukaszewicz yields 124 hits exclusively in Polish sources. And the move which was carried out by presented argument moved Juozas Lukoševičius to Józef Łukaszewicz: Yeah, another "Lithuanian"... is not valid. Actually, looking to the biography should be discussed usage if his Russian name. In other words this controversial move should go proper procedures and proper sources should be presented. Reverted move. M.K. 11:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

And I reinstated it. Use WP:RM? Look who's talking... But seriously, why don't you present a single piece of evidence that would back up the name? So far we have at least three references calling him a Pole and not a single piece of evidence using his Lithuanian name. JUdging by your actions I'm beginning to think that the small Lithuanian club in wikipedia has some serious problem with understanding that not everyone who was ever born in Poland is Lithuanian by default... //Halibutt 15:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah my dear EnDek friend, you seem to be confusing places and names:) Here's some contemporary view of an Englishman to Lithuania from the year 1863 (birth year of Lukasewicz]. I agree, it differs a bit from what we do know now, but not as much as you would like it to be Nationalities of Europe. Volume 1 By Robert Gordon Latham. Quite strange,it does not say that Vilna, Grodno and other areas are Poland, quite on the contrary - it says it's Lithuania. You'd be even surprised to find term "Lithuania proper" there. Quite a pitty, you cannot accuse an Englishman being Lithuanian ultra, or "modern historians" do you? If you're interested I might share this book with you, I had an opportunity to download it full in PDF.--Lokyz 18:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to this discussion - and in any case, nobody ever denied existence of GDL.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, nobody is denying the fact that Vilna (try searching the book you mentioned for the word Vilnius :) )used to be part of GDL. This, however, is completely outside of the scope of both this article and this discussion. //Halibutt 20:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit: the book indeed seems to be very interesting. Pages 18 (Ethnologically, the Lithuanic stock falls into four divisions: the Yatshving, the Lithuanic proper, the Lett and the Prussian. Of these, it is only the first, second, and third that are sufficiently connected with Poland to command our attention.), 100 (The heads of the Lithuanian nobility (I observe that all the names given by Schlosser are Polish) had ribbons and stars conferred on them)... The "census" data given on the page 412 is funny as well: no Poles, Belarussians nor Jews in Vilna, no Ukrainians in Volhynia... I love all those ancient history books, they are so much fun to read... //Halibutt 20:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I too love Ancient History, although most people wouldn't put 1863 in that category (it's only 34 years prior to the "Holy" Census of 1897," concerning the ethnicity of "Vilna"). Personally, I find reading "Modern History" written in Poland between 1944-1989, much more entertaining and "fun to read". And for a real good belly laugh, I enjoy the "references" frequently provided from the untranslated tygodniks that are used to back up some of the outrageous propaganda spewed out of some quarters that cheapen the Wikipedia project. Thanks Lokyz, for an interesting mongraph. Dr. Dan 22:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] After graduating from a local gymnasium....

After 3 sets of 20 repetitions and a few protein shakes, he made it! Phew... Or do you mean GIM NARSY OOM a place of learning??? You are sooo rough with your words. Shame on you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.239.194.203 (talk) 11:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

gymnasium (school) rings any bells? //Halibutt

[edit] Name revisited

Of the 64 English-only Google hits on Józef Łukaszewicz mentioned above Józef Łukaszewicz 64, only 38 are unique entries. Most of those are for the historian Józef Łukaszewicz (1799-1873), many are for a professor at University of Wrocław, and several are Wikipedia mirror sites. What does it say on his tombstone? Novickas 14:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Just go and see for yourself, the grave is not far from the chapel, several metres from the street (no idea what its modern name is). However, I'm afraid that once you do, people would start arguing that his tombstone is not a proof and that perhaps it was not his choice but rather yet another sign of oppression by the Polish chauvinists who forced him not to use his Lithuanian name... Anyway, here you go with a map, the grave is marked by "29". //Halibutt 19:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Afraid I'm a very long distance from Vilnius. If you have seen it, and it reads Łukaszewicz, I would defintely not argue against it as a primary listing. However, given the circumstances of his life, it seems reasonable to list the Lithuanian version of his name in the first sentence. Novickas 23:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that given number of sources using Lithuanian: Juozas Lukoševičius this may be included in the lead.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, any Lithuanian link mentioning him would use the Lithuanian version of his surname, just like the Lithuanians use Lithuanized names for any personality, from Wałęsa to Juzefas Pilsudskis and Hilda Margareta Tečer. It's not yet a proof of the name being notable enough to be mentioned in the lead. We don't put the Polish spelling of Shakespeare's surname in the lead of that article either, even though there are zillions of links to use the form of Szekspir. //Halibutt 08:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

But then Szekspir (:>) never lived in what we consider Poland by any definition...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

But by the same standards we should add a Polish name for every Lithuanian, Belarusian or Ukrainian who ever lived in what we know as PLC... And by the same standards we should add Russian names for all Poles and Lithuanians born there between the partitions and 1917... Yosip Pilsudski and Anton Smyatona come to mind as perfect examples. //Halibutt 18:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess the question is one of usage: if the Lithuanian version of his name is used often in English sources, it should be mentioned. Is it?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

That's the question that should be asked. Is it? //Halibutt 02:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation of 64 English-language Google hits on Józef Łukaszewicz

Piotrus, were you unaware of the existence of a distinguished historian and an equally distinguished computer science professor with the same name? Novickas 17:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Could you count the references to them (i.e. how many of the 64 publications are related to them), as well as check on any notable people among the Lithuanian name equivalent?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I will, but you didn't answer the question. Novickas 12:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Listed below are the results of a Google search on Józef Łukaszewicz, English-only, at about 11:00 AM US Central Daylight Time, March 2, 2007.

Page 1	Page 2	Page 3	Page 4
Page 5

The readers may judge for themselves whether Piotrus knowingly mis-stated the count. One item that is not immediately obvious is that many of the mirror sites refer to the Rasos Cemetery and List of famous Vilnians Wikipedia articles, which Piotrus and Halibut have edited.

The portion of this section that begins with "Listed below" was added by User:Novickas. Novickas 19:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/Possible bad faith in use of citations involved in the move of Juozas Lukoševičius to Józef Łukaszewicz Novickas 16:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Claiming Lithuanian

Thanks for referencing the "Lithuanian" part. We surely need references for that and they seem fine. However, there is a tiny problem: the ex-libris does use his Lithuanized name (even in the Russian version! the artist used a Russified version of his Lithuanized name rather than the Russian version of his name he was using himself), yet does not claim he was Lithuanian. Same goes for the "Lithuanian geology index", which mentions a book on him, yet does not call him Lithuanian. Can't comment on the pdf since it's entirely in Lithuanian. //Halibutt 02:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Response:

• The exact wording "claim as Lithuanian" is not necessary to support the sentence.

• The Lithuanians M.K. and Lokyz have issued such a claim on this page.

• The ex libris at [1] speaks for itself as an expression of national pride.

• The geology index [2] employs the standard English usage for non-Lithuanian persons such as Eduard Eichwald, H. Spencer, A. Comte, and J. Mill, but does refer to this person as Lukoševičius.

• The pdf [3] is NOT entirely in Lithuanian; it has an English introduction, and the citations at the end are entered in the publications' original languages. All names are listed in the text in their original forms, with the occasional addition of the suffix -o-, which indicates possession in the way that the usage of -'s- indicates possession in English. It refers to the subject as Lukoševičius.

Novickas 19:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, any suggestion he was Lithuanian in the references would do. Wikipedians as such are not reliable sources since their own views are called original research. The ex-libris might tell me anything since it's a work of art. However, even if we extend our definition of a reliable source to pieces of art, there's not Lithuanianness mentioned in the text of the ex-libris. Again, the geologic index uses the Lithuanized form of his name (which is not questioned by anyone here), yet does not call him Lithuanian. I do not doubt that there are people claiming the guy was Lithuanian, but we need a source for that. Ńone of the sources you present mention that. //Halibutt 20:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the claiming sentence after finding that he pleaded for mercy from the tsar. I no longer wish to pursue the issue of whether he was Lithuanian. I wrote that sentence, and now feel free to withdraw it, since it was disputed. Novickas 14:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFArb

This article and its talk page were the subjects of an unsuccessful RFA - see [4] . I posted the following message on my talk page: "I'm truly sorry to find that intellectual honesty and honor are not concepts that Wikipedia recognizes. However, since these concepts are alive and well in universities, research institutions, the US military, and elsewhere, I have faith that they will eventually be recognized here as well." Novickas 15:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Per Dr. Dan's request, I'm copying a comment from my talk page here: Novickas 00:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The sooner you understand how the reasoning of those who were the objects of your RFA operates, the less dissapointed you will be. If J.L. had moved to Kaunas in the 1920's, had composed the Lithuanian National Anthem, and had written his Last Will and Testament in prefect Lithuanian, you still would have been told he was born in Poland and was Polish. Now he can rest in peace in the English Wikipedia as being born in "Poland" (at the time Russia) and is both a Pole and a "Russian" to boot. But as always, during these discussions you can count on a few pearls being relayed during their arguments. Here are two of my favorites: the first from the response at your RFA, where the commentator "not wanting to create too much bad blood between Polish and Lithuanian editors" says speaking of the Lithuanian wikicommunity ....that it seems to be a tad touchy when it comes to Polish-Lithuanian relations and people born in Vilna in the times when the town was not yet a part of Lithuania... Not yet a part of Lithuania? Saving the best for last, you might remember this one from the J.L. talk page...I'm beginning to think that the small Lithuanian club on Wikipedia has some serious problem with understanding that not everyone who was ever born in Poland is Lithuanian by default. I hope I got you to smile, it got me to laugh. Oh, and BTW thanks for giving us all an insight on how they count google hits too. Dr. Dan 16:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)