Talk:Ján Čarnogurský

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Current status: During this period characterized by quarrels between Czechs and Slovaks concerning the future of their co-existence he became famous by his statement that in the future Slovakia should have its own "little [European] star" in Europe, which at the time of existence of Czechoslovakia was a shocking statement.

Regarding the "little [European] star" in Europe, is it literally translated from a statement in Slovak? When I search for Čarnogurský Slovakia own star, most of the pages return something like "its own star" on the EU flag.

As I remember, during the period characterized by quarrels Mr. Carnogursky did not push for immediate loosening of the federation as some other politicians did (same opinion for example [1]). The expression shown desire for more international recognition (like the Hyphen War). Though it would mean a split of the federation some time in the future, I would mark the statement rather diplomatic than shocking. Carnogursky did not seem to follow make it or break it approach of some other party leaders. JanSuchy 23:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The quote clearly starts with "little" and ends with "star", hence your objection is out of place (of course, the EU flag was meant, the text does not claim the opposite). The statement was shocking for everybody at that time, I clearly remember that. The expression is very pertaining and purely describing the public reaction at that time, nothing less and nothing more. I do not know and nobody knows, and I would not dare to guess, what exactly he intended to say. And I strongly doubt that he had something precise in mind. Using your terminology: even such a diplomatic statement was shocking, because it was one of the first such statements made by an "official" person at that time....Of course, if you feel that there is need and it is possible to clearly describe his opinion on the federation, go on and add it (From my point of view, he was one of those who did not know what he wants). That does not affect his "little star" statement and its perception at that time. Juro 04:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Juro, thank you for your explanation. I fully agree the quotation should include the word little. I found an interesting discussion on the Czech radio [2] (Czech), that took place on Jan 1, 2003, ten years after the Dissolution of Czechoslovakia. According to the article Mr. Carnogursky publicky expressed his vision that Slovakia should have its own little star on the European sky and own little chair at the European table already in 1990. Therefore: I agree to shocking and do not demand the word flag anymore. I should not have limit myself to the English sources. Off topic: according to the current European flag article, maybe he should have said its own thin stripes :-))

My POV perception, biased by the Czech media at that time is: some politicians were sticking to their vision of the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic (either tight or loose "design") and were threatening to break the Federation in case their demands are not met. Mr. Carnogursky had independent state in mind, however the expression was neither clear nor I want it all and I want it now. My understanding of Mr. Miklosko statement expressed in the same discussion is that the vision of Mr. Carnogursky was independent Slovakia within the European Union, with strong ties to the Czech republic as well as to the other countries, and that he wanted to gradually attain this targret. I do hesitate to change the current article, I am not an expert on Slovak politics. However, I would welcome some extension that would differentiate the vision of Mr. Carnogursky from the visions of Mr. Meciar and Mr. Klaus. JanSuchy 10:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Your "problem" (if I might use this expression) is that you consider politicians logical and systematic persons, which they (usually) are not. Based on what they were saying at that time, their opinion changed every "2 months" (a detailed analysis would require looking at all interviews, public speeches etc.). The only thing that could be done is to compare their views at a particular point of time, say in June 1992. But I really do not think that I or anybody else could write details on such things without personal bias, therefore I prefer to avoid these topics in an encyclopaedia. In the then Slovakia, there was the problem that most people and politicians actually wanted an independent Slovakia (the idea was always somehow hidden deeply in the public minds), but most people feared economic losses, if not a collapse, so that the politicians, initially at least, would not even think of a completely independent Slovakia (and that affected their publicly expressed opinions). So, as you can see, this is a very complicated issue. Juro 20:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Juro, thank you for your reply. I'll try to leave the politics related topics at least for a weak and make some developed stubs related to Czech and Slovak culture :-) JanSuchy 21:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)