Talk:Ivana Miličević
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Er... when did they move Seattle to Bosnia?
If she is a Serb, then her relative(Zubak) who smuggled S-300, Mig-21s, Mi-24s into Croatia at wartime is a Serbian traitor, another link http://www.jutarnji.hr/kultura_i_zivot/film/clanak/art-2006,5,30,milicevic_bond,28713.jl is interview on Croatian. She is 100% of Croatian heritage, child of Hercegovinan Croats who moved to Sarajevo.
- I don't think anyone is advancing the idea she is Serb anymore... BTW, I don't read Croatian, but her birthdate is wrong in that article.--Isotope23 20:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] This article featured on the "Lamest edit wars" page
Just thought you guys would like to know that the past discussions and edit wars concerning this article have been listed on the Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars page. I guess you all are now famous within the Wikipedia community. Cla68 06:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Birthplace
I'm not sure it is exactly factually accurate to say Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina as Bosnia-Herzegovina didn't exist as a country at the time she was born there... if you disagree though, I'd be happy to listen to rationales for listing it out.--Isotope23 14:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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- At that time, it did exist as a socialist republic. What it boils down to is whether we are to be historically accurate, or simple using todays status. Wikipedia is riddled with inconsistency; I favour the historical status because people get no younger. There are ways around it: town+present country+note (then a part of ...); town+former country+note (now a part of...); or the town alone with a blue link. Then if the reader is interested he may be able to follow its historical journey to find out where it was in that particular year. What is definitely wrong, especially when a region has been embroiled in political war, is to arrogate and use the present day country only. That sort of behaviour is actually harmful and offensive because it doesn't hurt to give extra information, especially when it is factual and limited to two or three words. I don't mind keeping it as Sarajevo. Evlekis 14:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Sarajevo part isn't going to be contentious, it's the Yugoslavia part that is going to be (and just a note, I'm not the one who removed Yugoslavia). Regardless, since Sarajevo was in Yugoslavia at the time she was born there, I don't think this is inaccurate... but my experience with this article (and what I've witnessed in general on Balkan related articles) has been such that I predict someone else will come along and change your edit within a couple of days...--Isotope23 14:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's all right, I know you didn't change it, and I actually contradicted myself in that first I said "keep it as Sarajevo" and then within a minute changed it. It is because the article is set up to say that she is Bosnian-born, so with that I feel it necessary to state just where Bosnia was. The person who reverted my first edit is a more established user who wouldn't do such a thing to be callous but as you can see, I had my reasons for retruning it. I won't go to war over this issue but if anyone knocks off Yugoslavia and Bosnia again, I'll try something else: we could say she is a Sarajevo-born Croat. Onlookers can easily check where Sarajevo is and all is clear from there. Evlekis 15:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- Calling her a "Sarajevo-born Croat" will probably be contentious too, but I'll wrap this into a response below.--Isotope23 15:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- At that time, it did exist as a socialist republic. What it boils down to is whether we are to be historically accurate, or simple using todays status. Wikipedia is riddled with inconsistency; I favour the historical status because people get no younger. There are ways around it: town+present country+note (then a part of ...); town+former country+note (now a part of...); or the town alone with a blue link. Then if the reader is interested he may be able to follow its historical journey to find out where it was in that particular year. What is definitely wrong, especially when a region has been embroiled in political war, is to arrogate and use the present day country only. That sort of behaviour is actually harmful and offensive because it doesn't hurt to give extra information, especially when it is factual and limited to two or three words. I don't mind keeping it as Sarajevo. Evlekis 14:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nationality
I wish for a moment to focus on another issue, the external links 1+2; they seem to be drawn from the same sources, the way they both have just "Bosnia" as a country name (inaccurate on their own parts) and give the girl Bosnian nationality. Now that should be clear that it is impossible: I've personally discussed the nature of nationality on Wikipedia in the past but it can generally be agreed that the word has two meanings, 1. its original meaning (affiliation to ones nation), or 2. legal status between individual and state. Milicevic seems to be a self-identified Croat and given that she lived in the USA since 1983, she is most probably an American citizen. To add confusion, no Bosnia did not exist in 1983 as a sovereign state which was able to issue "rights to participation" category statuses to persons anywhere in the world. Either this is down to the source editors ignorance, or he might just have acquired information that Milicevic has identified as Bosnian without mentioning her parents' decision to be Croat! If that were the case (probably not), then the sources are a little out of harmony with each other. Evlekis 15:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- This has come up many, many, times here. The wording that is on the article is crafted to try and strike a balance. She probably is an American citizen, but there is no reliable source for this right now (though I'd love to see one). Calling her "Bosnian" (as nationality) may not be technically accurate since when she resided in Sarajevo it was part of Yugoslavia, but it is sourced (even if the source isn't exactly what I would consider an "expert" source; my assumption is that the source article creator is an entertainment writer who saw a blurb that she was born in Sarajevo, just picked up a modern map, and wrote she was "Bosnian"). the ethnic Croat part was added to identify her ethnicity as her parents are ethnically Croat and she apparently self-identifies as that. What this all boils down to is there are a couple of ethnic groups who wish to "claim" her as their own. I've tried to strike something of a balance here as a neutral party (I'm not from the Balkans, nor do I have any ancestry there). If you think there is a more technically accurate way of stating this that can be reliably sourced we certainly could discuss alternate wording. I just want to make sure whatever is here meets WP:BLP and is well sourced so we don't return to the tedious revert warring that made this article WP:LAME a few months back.--Isotope23 15:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I see what you mean. Well I have no reason to doubt that she is Croatian given your own link some time ago, she is highly unlikely to be Muslim (that could mean Bosniak leading to Bosnian). Muslims more often than not have names which ultimately originate from Arabic with some Turkish help along the way. Ivana usually applies to those who are nominally Christian. It is common throughout the Slavic world even though Serbian often prefers Jovan/Jovana (pr. Yovan), especially when naming outsiders (Pope John Paul II was - Papa Yovan Pavlo in Serbia & Macedonia; and Ivan Pavlo in the Croatian language world). Milicevic is based on the "Mil" Slavic route meaning "nice" or "kind". The rest of it: -ičević is common among ethnic Serbs too. Because Bosnia is the only former Yugoslav country not to share a land border with any other non-Yugoslav country as oppose to the other five, its ethnic composition of predominantly Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks/Muslims makes it the most homogenous of the former republics with regards modern nations with Slavic backgrounds, in addition there is a small top-up given that most municipalities (including Sarajevo) do actually have a small population to declare themselves Yugoslavs. The likelyhood of this being Ivana Milicevic given all that we know about her is extremely small. So if her ethnicity matters to her, we need to know what she says about herself to be exact. If we know that both of her parents identified as Croats then until we know better, it is fair to say that she is American Croat. So, Istope23, can you arrange an interview with her? :) Evlekis 16:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- Heh, wouldn't that be Original research? I can say with pretty good certainty that she is ethnically Croatian and her parents were Catholic, but I can't reliably source this (same as I would bet money she is an American citizen but don't have a source for this). She definitely is not Muslim. Her last name has been the source of much of the Serb/Croat contentions here as you've alluded to above.--Isotope23 16:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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