Talk:Italian war crimes

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I am adding the non-NPOV tag, since I feel there is a deep bias in the way this article has been written.

The article is incomplete and incorrect, there is another question (and that includes italian concentration camps): should war crimes committed by the R.S.I (the puppet regime of Hitler in northern Italy) be counted as italian? They were trialed in Nürnberg together with other Nazi crimes so officially were committed by the Germans. After the armistice Hitler annected Alto-Adige adn other parts of eastern Italy as a compensation and immediately the extermination camps were built in Italy, but this happened in Germany, because those regions belonged to Germany at that time. The CROWCASS [1] archive in fact lists only crimes committed before 1943 and those are certainly a small part.

thats not true italian acts in tripolitania and now ethipia were really gruesome.--Tresckow 11:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 WWII Victims in Yugoslavia 2 Concentration Camps in Yugoslavia 3 Requirements 4 Badoglio 5 Background 6 Rewrite 6.1 What was said and how it materialised

[edit] WWII Victims in Yugoslavia

This one is really interesting [2]

According to the listings of the State Commision for the Establishment of War Crimes Committed by Occupying Forces and Collaborators, performed in 1946: In The Croatian territory only 13.000 people died of typhoid, 22,376 were killed by Germans, 12.500 by Germans and Italians, 8.111 by Italians. Bosnia and Hercegovina had about the same number of victims.

serbian victims of WWII

 National Liberation Army soldiers                                   82,000
 Collaborators and "quislings"                                       23,000
 Taken to the German camp in Zemun                                   20,000
                                                                           125,000      
 Died of typhoid                                                     25,000
 Killed by Germans                                                   45,000
 Killed by Italians                                                  15,000
 Civilians killed in battles between Ustashas,Chetniks and Partisans 34,000
 Killed in prisons, pits and other camps                             28,000
 Killed in the Jasenovac-Gradina camp                                50,000     
                                                                           197,000
 Total number of those killed and the dead                            322,000                                                                            

[edit] Concentration Camps in Yugoslavia

Lubiana had a popolation of 80.000 in 1942, on Juny 27-28-29-30th and July 1st 1942 20435 persons were controlled and 2858 (3.5% of the entire population) arrested and sent to concentration camps becouse either ex-military or political oppositors, 771 of them where students.

Approximately 30.000 persons were interned in concentration camps controlled by the II Army, Yugoslavian military, families of partisans (Orders were to kill the partisans and accomplices on the spot, arrest their entire family, confiscate all their properties), political opponents and Jews. Several orders sent by the Commander of the IInd Army stressed that in no case Partisans or their accomplices had to be captured alive. The death rate was extimated by italian doctors as 2%, very high but a lot inferior to that of German concentration camps. According to Yugoslavian sources approximately 2700 persons died in italian concentration camps.Renicci the mast famus camp, near Anghiari(Arezzo)

[edit] Requirements

First of all, the reference to war crimes is inaccurate to describe the occupation of Trieste, Gorizia and Zara, since all of these are war compensations. Furthermore, saying Istria is Slovenian may be correct now, not in 1930s, when these facts are set (no Slovenia after WWI, but only Yugoslavia).

Second, Italy was a colonial power, and acted as a colonial power. That said, someone should motivate the cruelness accuse.

Third, being one of the aggressive Axis Powers in World War II is not a war crime. As far as war could be fair, Italy acted fairly against France, United Kingdom and United States (as well as Greece and Yugoslavia).

Fourth, the definition of volte-face is biased. The same act can be defined as armistice, and the article does not mention in any way that less than two months before the alleged volte-face, Fascist dictature fell.

That said, the only part that could be presented as Italian war crimes is the actions taken in Yugoslavia and Greece, as reported by the bibliography, but it would require a development to become an article.

--Panairjdde 10:05, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Badoglio

And Ethiopia, then Abessinia imho, see Pietro Badoglio. When the article is finished it will be clearer why Italian policies are closer to definition of genocide than "just" war crimes. Meanwhile, you chen check Rab, Gonars, Ustje and of cours Crimini di guerra page if you understand Italian...

I am not telling that Italy made no war crimes, I am just telling that the article is badly written, and disputable. If you think to be right, go on and write it better. Note also that there were Italian concentration camps also in Italy; this is well known.--Panairjdde 11:14, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, could you please let me know the Italian war crimes committed by Badoglio? --Panairjdde 13:15, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tag changed to LOng NPOV which is appropriate: please dispute each datum/paragraph w. counter arguments. Sufficient reliable references are presented. Please help with further improving the article. If you do not have time, I am sure other Wikipedians can contribute. Best regards MGTom 14:14, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

I confuted the Background events section. If no one disagrees, I will remove it in the next days.--Panairjdde 16:11, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Background

Thank you for giving interesting coments and additional information. The Background section is not very strong, I have deposited there material text on reorganisation. It may be better to spred any relevant information in other articles to which this may refer back. The part that realy needs additions (besides the lists of course) is the Aftermath, which is surprising. The working of the real world power play are fascinating. Colonial episodes may find a place elswhere; your presentation of usual practices may be used. MGTom 20:28, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

I changed the tag from long NPOV to cleanup, since this seems the matter. Accordin to my opinion, the Background section should be removed, since its contents are of no relevance to the article – the only relevant information is that Italy fought in WWII. It is necessary to fill the List of Italian war crimes (maybe Rab, Gonars, Ustje?), to explain what's inside the referenced documents, and so on. I really consider this article, in the current state, as a stub. --Panairjdde 09:24, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Rewrite of the article is needed, indeed. As noted above, the Background section may be eliminated by addition of references to such infromation in other articles.

The following quotation on the guiding principle of the Fascist policy may be a fitting motto (or one of the quotations) for one (or several) articles on the history of the Kingdom of Italy as a colonnial power & the policy on the "new" territories:

"Faced with an inferior and barbarous race such as the Slavs, one does not have to follow a policy that offers candies, but one of the stick. The borders of Italy should be the Brenner, Nevoso (Snežnik) and the Dinarides: I think that it is possible to sacrifice 500,000 barbarian Slavs for 50,000 Italians.""

(From a speach of the Fascist duce Benito Mussolini, later the Royal Italy's Prime Minister (1922 to 1943) in a speech in Pola/Pula (1920) and refers to the policy intended by the later ruling party for the area of Istria and on the Slovene national territory [3], in Italian) MGTom 20:35, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

[edit] What was said and how it materialised

Ok, but how this speech (1920) translated into war crimes (1944)? --Panairjdde 13:15, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Threough a histroic process of History of Italy. Mostly quite literally, finally also through Italian military instructions, such as the ill-famed Roatta's "3-C" CIRCOLARE N. 3 C; 1° dicembre 1942-XXI°[4], see also in book form: [5]

In letter: PUNTO VI° : ALLE OFFESE DELL'AVVERSARIO SI DEVE REAGIRE PRONTAMENTE E NELLA FORMA PIU' DECISA E MASSICCIA POSSIBILE

- Il trattamento da fare ai partigiani non deve essere sintetizzato dalla formula: "dente per dente" ma bensì da quella "testa per dente".(etc.)
In summary translation, the instructions read: not "tooth-for-tooth" but "head-for-tooth". And heads did roll, military or civillian. MGTom 22:18, 2005 Mar 2 (UTC)

Ok, so I now repeat, how did these words translated into war crimes? Note that the non-military (I mean, civil formations, not soldiers) resitance is considered a military action behind enemy lines, and it can be punished with death.--Panairjdde 14:26, 3 September 2005 (UTC)