Talk:Israeli-occupied territories

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Contents 1 Peace 2 Problem with Archive 3 3 Intro 4 Page Move 5 Minor Changes to Intro 6 Points of view: Israeli, Palestinian, Hamas, Zionist, etc. 7 Reasons for leaving Gaza Strip 8 Term Occupied Territories

[edit] Peace

For older discussions, please see below:

• /Archive 1
• /Archive 2

[edit] Problem with Archive 3

There seems to be a problem with Archive 3. I'm not sure what method was used to perform the archive, but the archivers should examine it. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 03:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem has been sorted out. Archive 3 doesn't exist: I merely created the link to simplify archiving in the future. To remove confusion, I have taken it away. Everything since Archive 2 is in Archive 2. -- Chris Lester ^talk 09:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

This phrase is not the definitive term encompassing the areas included - just one of the terms. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 16:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I reiterate what I said above. If you disagree, please respond to what I wrote here. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 01:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. —Aiden 06:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)--khello 03:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

David: "Both of these territories were part of former British Mandate of Palestine, and both have populations consisting primarily of Arab Palestinians, including historic residents of the territories" is incorrect. Most Arabs living under British mandatory rule in Palestine in the 1940's had come during the previous few decades, during economic advancement by the British and the growing Jewish population. "Historic residents" thus is inaccurate and seems politically motivated.

The statement "Most Arabs living under British mandatory rule in Palestine in the 1940's had come during the previous few decades" must be under really severe doubt. It's a claim being pushed most strongly by Joan Peters and Shmuel Katz, both authors under severe criticism and debate over whether they belong under WP:RS.

There is good reason to think it cannot be true, eg adjacent villages that speak dialects of Arabic that are mutually unintelligible. These are not recent immigrants, far from it. They've probably been in the same place for many, many centuries, no matter what the anti-semitic Mark Twain claims to have observed. (It's likely they had summer homes somewhere else - partly for hygiene and disease control reasons in a region short of water). (Please excuse the apparent WP:OR - I promise not to put this into any article until I can source it properly).

Almost the best possible source is this one [2] - the initial report of the British High Commissioner, Herbert Samuel.

League of Nations 30 July 1921 - AN INTERIM REPORT ON THE CIVIL ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE, during the period 1st JULY, 1920 - 30th JUNE, 1921. ........ The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.

Herbert Samuel, British High Commissioner and author of the above, was later accused of rabid pro-Zionism eg [3].

PalestineRemembered 20:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Move

I propose this page is moved to Israeli disputed territories. The term occupied is, on its own, showing an anti-Israel bias, as Israel officially annexed all of Jerusalem, parts of the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. Gaza belongs on the page too, but it was officially given to the PA.

While some of the territories are "occupied" according to anti-Israel sources, the generally accepted terminology is disputed. --יהושועEric 15:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• Agree. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
• Disagree, reaching agreement on this title took long enough and proposed new title makes little sense in my view. Is this going to be put forward as a formal move proposal, or is it merely a suggestion to test the waters? Eric, if it's the former, you should list it on WP:RM; unfortunately, this is a pain in the proverbial, but that's how it works. Palmiro | Talk 22:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oh, for God's sake no. This is the way the place is known throughout the world. The Pro-Palestinian bias version would be something like "Occupied Palestine". "Disputed Territories" is not the generally accepted term - it is a pro-Israeli propaganda term. john k 23:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
• Disagree per John K. Utterly ridiculous proposal. --Ian Pitchford 21:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• John K has a point, but I certainly wouldn't call the proposal "utterly ridiculous", as the current title sounds POV and does favor one side. The thing is that after much previous heated (quite hostile and disappointing actually) discussion over this, there doesn't appear to exist a neutral term, so second-best is to just go with the most common term, and the current title is it. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 21:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • As MPerel says, we have gone over this before, and it was very much not fun. I'd advise anyone who isn't familiar with that debate to look over the archives. john k 02:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
    • "very much not fun": that is a big understatement..... My eyebrows have just grown back again...Huldra 06:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
• Disagree as per above. Yuber^(talk) 02:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Agree per nom. Anyway, the POV title tag should be added to this one if it (wrongly) stays. Amoruso 02:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Disagree. I had a look through the debate in the archive and I think this is the most appropriate title. I don't even think the newly proposed title is NPOV anyway. --khello 23:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Disagree. The world knows/knew the West Bank and Gaza as "Occupied territories". They are not disputed. Israel is not entitled to annex these lands, no matter how many guns it has. (Just as China would not be entitled to annex Taiwan if it had enough guns to do so. This is despite the fact that Taiwan is a recent break-away section from 3000 years of being China, hi-jacked by war-lord faction beaten on the mainland). PalestineRemembered 21:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Disagree. Sigh. This is "deja vu all over again". Please check the archives. Regards, Huldra 06:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
• It took enough effort to reach the current comrpomise, let's not do it again. El_C 20:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Changes to Intro

I've gone ahead and slightly 'cleaned up' part of the intro. 'Generally' and 'sometimes' shouldn't be used in the same sentence! I also put the "Sinai peninsula" in a new sentence, as the area has already been returned. As for the last sentence of the intro, can user:Shamir1 please explain- what do you mean by the 'sense' of the occupation? I can see what you mean with 'definition' and 'legality', but I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'sense of the occupation'. I've left that in for now- just wanted to hear what you think--khello 02:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I didn't write anything in the 'edit summary'- that was my first edit on wikipedia! :-( --khello 03:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Points of view: Israeli, Palestinian, Hamas, Zionist, etc.

The writing & editing of this controversial article can easily be ressolved if the Point of view were simply Identified. There is nothing wrong with that.

But to try to come to an agreement, as if there were a common view, is like the variation on the joke that a camel (either bactrian, or dromedary) is a horse designed by a committee. And I hope I didn't offend anyone by the joke's suggest that the horse is more beautiful than a camel.

Yours truly, Ludvikus 15:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for leaving Gaza Strip

I think the following statement doesn't have a NPOV:

In 2005, Israel forced all settlers to leave the Gaza Strip, in a hope that this would placate Palistinian terrorists, and move the peace process forward.

It is certainly not fact that Israel vacated the Gaza in a effort to bring the peace process forward. There is much suspicion that this formed part of a greater plan by Israeli politicians in imposing Israels permanent boarders on the populations in the area without negotiation. I would think we'd better serve a NPOV by modifying this statement to reflect this? tobybuk

[edit] Term Occupied Territories

Would point out in addition to the term "occupied territory" to be subject to challenge, the anti-Semitic Arabs and Muslims, when using the term "occupied territories," refer to all of Israel, and consider all of Israel to be disputed. Their desire to obliterate Israel and her population is well documented, both in words and action. Therefore, the term "occupied territories" would appear to slant towards those that advocate genocide, and it is probably unwise to use the term here, either in same or different usage. - MSTCrow 20:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)