Talk:Irony

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[edit] Irony and paradox

The article gave the following example of irony:

Another simple example of irony occurred in June, 2005. The Virginia Employment Agency, which handles unemployment ompensation, announced that they would layoff 400 employees for lack of work because unemployment is so low in the state.

Is this really irony? It doesn't appear to be from the definition in the article but I think it is according to the everyday use of the word. But wouldn't it be more correct to characterize it as a kind of paradox (like the liar's paradox)? There is nothing in the announcement that says something that can be misunderstood etc. The announcement is very clear. The only "strange" this about it is that by firing the workers they may create the condition that may make the workers necessary again, but I'm not sure if that is irony. I have removed the example but others can add it back if they feel like it.

One helpful way to proceed in such a case, is to begin with the preamble: "Irony may be confused with paradox..." Follow with the text, and explain why it's paradox, not irony. It's more informative for the reader than simply pulling an example that has seemed ironic to more than one Wikipedian --Wetman 15:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
No action, so I've done it myself. Please improve the article's distinction of irony and paradox in the article rather than just suppressing it, as our anonymous contributor did in August 2005. --Wetman 21:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't the statement about the Virginia Employment Agency be cited? It sounds a bit suspiciously "too good to be true" as an example. If it's fact, please cite an external source so we can read the story for ourselves. If it's a mere anecdote, perhaps it should be removed? Wikipedia isn't an archive of funny urban legends to illustrate some points. 66.17.118.207 15:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a spoiler warning on the Con-Air bit?

The landlord being evicted from his home is analogous to Adolph Coors being allergic to beer. So why is the former presented as an example of genuine irony, while the latter is labelled "controversial"? In my opinion, neither one is truly ironic.

And why are the landlord and the atheist under the heading of "Irony and Sarcasm"? Actually, I think both of those examples should just be removed because they're out of place and they contradict everything that comes before them.

From the article:

Gr. dpciwLa, from eipwv, one who says less than he means, eipeu’, to speak

Can someone please fix the scanos here, and spell out the Greek language words in Greek?

An example of irony in speech would really help this article. I know what irony is, but I can't come up with a good ironic sentence at the moment. Anyone else? —Frecklefoot

[edit] Do you really consider the firefighter example "ironic?"

Great article... but I wonder about this example:


An ironic "Well done" would come when a firefighter across the street from a burning building sees a child on the window ledge and dashes across through traffic to catch the falling child in his arms. Both the speaker and the firefighter understand that "Well done" doesn't begin to express the half of it. They share a perception of irony.

This is what I'd call "understatement," and I had not previously considered understatement to be a form of irony.

AHD4's definitions are:

1a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See synonyms at wit1. 2a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain). b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic. 3.Dramatic irony. 4. Socratic irony.

It's true that 1a says "something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning" and therefore understatement qualifies as a kind of irony, and it's true that it meets Mencken's requirement that there be the perception of an excluded outsider—here, the speaker is trying to express his depth of regard to the firefighter without communicating it to bystanders—but it seems to me that, to be called irony, there should be at least a degree of humor. Specifically, the slightly nasty humor that comes from some sense that someone or other is being treated disrespectfully.

Dpbsmith 12:58, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This definition of irony is misguided and biased towards certain meanings. Its a mess I'm not about to address. Just pointing it out. It needs a rewrite.

What "definition of irony" are you referring to? The article as a whole? A specific part of the article? The dictionary definition I cite above on the talk page? Toward what meanings is it biased? The present contents of the article deals mainly with the strict meaning for the word irony. Personally, I'd label people who regard this as the only correct definition "purists." However, these purists happen to include Fowler and some other usage arbiters. I thought I'd dealt with this adequately in the section I added, Irony#Usage controversy.
"Just pointing it out" doesn't help if you can't be more specific about where you feel the problems lie. Even though I'm not a purist, I happen to think it's a darn good article, and that it's important for people to understand what irony means in the strict sense of the word, even if they choose to use it in a broader sense.
I believe that there's been a sort of faddism lately about trying to restrict the word to its primary meaning; people play games in which they jump on any non-strict use of the word irony. If it were possible to document this, it would make an interesting addition to the article. Usages change. Perhaps the word "irony" is evolving toward a stricter usage. That probably wouldn't be such a bad thing.
As for "it needs a rewrite," "then who will help me rewrite this Wikipedia article?" said the little red hen. "Not I!" said the goose. "Not I!" said the sheep. "Not I!" said Dpbsmith. "Then I will do it myself," said the little red hen. And she did. Dpbsmith 13:30, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

--- I'm hesitant to enter this discussion halfway through, but will anyway...

It seems to me that the article is quite correct in stating that, in modern usage, there is no longer any need for a double audience. In deed the Coors example illustrates this well.

However the Sullivan example is not in the least ironic by any defintion I understand. It was just bad luck !

I also agree with earlier comment that the firefighter example is not a good one. Why not use the Coors example instead ?

Is it ironic that an article about irony can't give a clear example ?"  ;-) Julianp 04:08, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Irnoie ist sopose to mean ironic! Is this really irnoic?


[edit] Etymology

The Semitic root of the Greek word is derived from the Accadic term erewum, "covering" Does anyone else doubt that this is an authentic Akkadian word? Got the Akkadian dictionary anyone?Wetman 17:38, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] firefighter

I appreciate that there is an example, and I think that this example does distinguish between sarcasm and irony. However, I think a simpler example would make this point more clearly. -LegCircus

"An example of sarcastic speech might be a response such as "Well done" or "Great job", said in an angry tone to a worker who has done something wrong. An ironic "Well done" would come when a fire-fighter across the street from a burning building sees a child on the window ledge and dashes across through traffic to catch the falling child in his arms. Both the speaker and the fire-fighter understand that "Well done" doesn't begin to express the half of it. They share a perception of irony."

[edit] How is jai alai court ironic?

Reading this article, the single most confusing thing is how the home that shares a glass wall with a jai alai court is ironic. Isn't that just stupid, not ironic? It would help if situational irony was further explained, along with the example. (Otherwise a new example would be good.)

I suspect the irony here is as follows: He has two living quarters, a house, and an apartment. The apartment shares a glass wall with a Jai-alai court. So, one would expect the house is a much better place to live. Ironically, the house is falling apart, and the apartment is in fact much nicer, even though it's smaller and has a somewhat absurd location.
The inadvisabiliy of playing Jai-alai against glass has nothing to do with it, as far as I can tell. Does that make sense to anyone else? GTBacchus 17:54, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Someone needs to simply replace this poor example with a better example of situational irony. No struggle. --Wetman 21:34, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How about the (probably apocryphal) story of the motorcyclist who was protesting the helmet law? He put his helmet on his knee, thus complying with the letter of the law, but not the spirit. He was pulled over, and the policeman made him put the helmet on his head. A quarter-mile down the road he fell off his bike and broke his knee.
Is that a better example of situational irony?
Or even, the Parable of the Good Samaritan, where the people you would expect to help don't, and the person you would expect to be a low-life turns out to be the neighbor? GTBacchus 03:01, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irony

I guess I may be a purist by some definitions yet I see the value of a language that evolves and adapts to meet a need. Much of what I hear on TV or radio news broadcasts, written by people who are supposed to be exemplars of our prestige dialect here in the United States, almost consistently identify simple coincidence as irony: "Joe Blow, the home-run hitter, pounded in his 35th home run of the season today. Ironically, Joe's uniform bears the number 35" or "It's raining in Louisiana, ironically, an area hard hit by last month's flooding." To me, these are just coincidences and not irony at all.

Yet I see that our language seems to be groping for something more than coincidence to suit the situations in these examples. The problem I see is that there is no other word in English that so aptly describes something which is ironic. As Steven Wright the comic might observe, there is no synonym in English for synonym. So there seems to be no synonym for irony. Thus the one word we have to capture this concept should be preserved, in my humble view, for a meaning as close to those most widely understood as possible and proscribe loosening this meaning to contain simple coincidence or comparison: "The male peacock, ironically, is the gender with the most spectacular plumage."

As to the jai-alai example, I also was confused by it. A jai-alai fronton (at least those that I have seen) has a "glass wall" much like a racquetball court does, to permit spectators a better view of the action. I will grant that it is not made of window glass so fragile it would break in the action of the game, but probably some modern clear plastic. But most casual speakers would call it glass, so the confusion with the example is understandable.

You are refering to the overworked use of ironic in the sence of irony of fate whic is a twist of circumsntance theat renders an action futile or ridiculous is what most english speakers use the word ironic for. By its self the Lousisana sentence is not ironic, but it would be ironic if, during a dry spell when rain is needed that the only place that receives rain is one that had flooding only last month. Although not a great example, and more appropriately just a coincidence as you said, the baseballer's 35 emblem may be considered lossely ironic when he pounds inthe 35th run in the sense that it is conveying a message that it was not intending to. Dainamo 17:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How is that photo of hitler and a child an example of visual irony?

Because we are looking at a friendly adult and child in a stereotype sugar-sweet scene, but then we observe the adult is Hitler which is incongruous to what kind of portayal we would normally expect him in. The artist's mischief has thus rendered a seemingly nice picture disturbingly funny to an audience who would recognise Hitler (those who do not whould not see the joke) and hence we have irony Dainamo 17:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I guess irony can be pretty ironic sometimes. EmpComm 20:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irony vs Sarcasm

This paragraph seems wrong to me, and disagrees with the definition at sarcasm:

Heavy-handed irony, in which a speaker emphatically states the flat opposite of the truth – perhaps with accompanying body language to deny the words – exemplifies the form of irony called sarcasm. People may particularly employ sarcasm for the purpose of ridicule, mockery or contempt, frequently uttering a sarcastic phrase. When used in literature, sarcasm is often referred to as verbal irony.

It's my understanding that "sarcasm" means acerbic, mocking, derisive speech, whether that derision is couched in an ironic utterance or not. Irony, even when the denotation and connotation are directly opposite, need not be sarcastic. Example: which Steve Martin movie is it where he offers the naked lady a coat to cover herself, and she says she'd rather stand there naked, and then when he doesn't get her a coat, and she asks why, he says that he didn't realize she was being ironic? Not sarcastic, because she wasn't being mean, just funny.

Anyway, I propose this replacement paragraph, which I'll go ahead and put in unless it generates disagreement here in a couple of days:

Irony is often confused with sarcasm, and there is indeed overlap between the concepts. Sarcasm is the use of speech in a derisive, mocking or contemptuous manner. A common form of sarcasm is to ironically say something positive when something negative is clearly intended. This use of irony often departs from the notion of a double audience, when the speaker really intends for the person being addressed to realize they are being insulted. A statement may be sarcastic without being ironic, if its derision is communicated in some other way, by tone for example. A statement may be ironic without being sarcastic when no mocking is intended.

I'll give it a couple of days... GTBacchus 03:20, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The definition in Samuel Johnson's Dictionary might help pin down the meaning. --Wetman 11:51, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Have you got that Dictionary handy? Or perhaps you're being ironic? GTBacchus 13:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the book "Irony" from the series "The Critical Idiom" (edited by John D. Jump, published by Methuen, 1973), the author, D. C. Muecke, questions whether sarcasm is a form of irony: "If it is a basic requirement of irony that we must feel the force of both the apparent and the real meanings, then sarcasm hardly exists as irony. The sarcast's tone so unequivocally conveys his real meaning that there can be scarcely any pretence of being unaware of it." sam July 9, 2005 03:11 (UTC)
Why not just work that into the article? --Wetman 9 July 2005 04:18 (UTC)
4 months later, done. -GTBacchus 07:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "situational irony"

The new example may be lame, but the old one confused irony with the absurd. --Wetman 16:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Visual irony

Someone removed the image and text recently. Apparently the photo, the caption and the accompanying text are not putting across clearly enough what "visual irony" means and why this is a good example of it? Your editing skills are requested. --Wetman 06:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the image was deleted for other reasons. I've added a new image, which sucks, and fails to convey visual irony at all, but provides a clear enough example of some sort of irony. — Phil Welch 07:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

That photo doesn't convey any example of irony. If the sign said "Dead End" right in front of a baby nursery (which is the beginning) then it would be irony. Not only is that not irony, but in fact it's the exact opposite of irony. 12.46.181.10 16:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is irony. It probably was not the intention of the sign poster to create a funny situation which they have. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.104.36.194 (talk) 20:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree that the "dead end" sign is not irony. It is just a humourous coincidence. If it were a sign that said something about being alive, or something about immortality, it would be ironic. But since the word "dead" is an accurate description, it's just unintended comedy. I move we find a more suitable image promptly. --Meneitherfabio 00:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Culture-bashing

The following developing exchange seemed unlikely ever to add to the sense or character or structure of irony (Wetman 06:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)):

A popular European claim is that Americans do not understand irony and hence fail to appreciate a considerable bulk of European and Commonwealth comedy. This probably isn't a fair observation given the success of many British acts and comedic television in the United States.
Many intellectuals and comedy-lovers in the States would point to this European misconception as a perfect example of yet futher meta-irony - pointing to the European propensity to take American injokes and ironic kitsch to such ridiculous levels of obviousness as to strain all sublety and humor out them. (See: mullets.) (See also: British inability to "get" Mr. Show.)

I fixed it up a bit. Frankly, pointless yank-bashing gets on my nerves, plus the paragraph as originally written ignores that EVERY language and culture practices subtletly, metaphor and irony. BryanEkers 16:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PLZTELLMELOL!!!

If irony is a form of speech then what the fuck is the irony in events like shooting down a military helicopter with a pistol (the irony: a very armored vehicle, for some reason, gets shot by an uncomparable weapon) or "he could prevent anyone's death, but got killed - how ironic"?

Helicopters aren't actually armored--if they were, they would be impossible to fly, which might be ironic. I think you're looking for "irony of fate", which is more figurative than literal—the idea being that the Fates or the gods are manipulating events on earth as an exercise in ironic expression. Although I don't think your examples are ironic, just improbable. — Phil Welch 03:57, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Jabba Irony?

Jabba was originally human...which is why Lucas had to graft Han Solo upwards using visual effects to step over Jabba's tail, because in the original scene Jabba is a human.

Well, Lucas claims that he meant to composit a stop-motion creature over the fat man in the originally filmed scenes. Either way, the line as it is is ironic—while on one level "You're a wonderful human being" is a great compliment, once we realize Jabba is not a human being, we realize that he is not wonderful either. — Phil Welch 02:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

My love for Star Wars does not surpass my love for irony. I do not argue the quote's validity as irony. I argue that with the likes of Mark Twain, O. Henry, and George W. Bush that Han Solo should be given the honor of introducing us to the concept. It's not even the best of Solo's ironic quotes (I'm fond of "The garbage chute was a wonderful idea. What an incredible smell you've discovered.") or the best in the movie (Luke trumped them all with "If there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it is farthest from."). It is all a matter of taste of course, but I'm sure that many would agree that there would be better ways to illustrate irony to the vast Wikipedia audience. --OGRastamon 02:23, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

It's a shitty example, even after compensating for the irony that Jabba originally was meant to be a human being, but the article needed some sort of image. I implore somebody to replace it :) — Phil Welch 02:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Phil your quick replacement of my pretty Heinlein picture verges on vandalism. That it was vandalism of what was essentially your property (the image space) makes it ironic. I effin' love it.

What? You're insane. I was being bold, I wasn't being destructive, and before the Jabba image there was another propaganda picture of Hitler and a little girl that ended up being deleted (the image file itself I mean) for reasons unrelated to this article. I found a rough equivalent of the original photo and inserted it. There's nothing ironic about it—it's just good editing. — Phil Welch 05:41, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, yours is apparently a prescriptivist view. :p --OGRastamon 08:00, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Not really. I just think that the image should portray the least widely disputed usage of the term. — Phil Welch 15:49, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, the Hitler picture is a terrible example of irony - as terrible as Morissette's song. There is no intended double audience, which is the only test for irony in the classical (Socratic) sense, which is the least widely disputed one. The only example of that in this section of discussion is the Solo quote "You're a wonderful human being", although I'm not sure whether any second audience is present to hear it other than Solo himself. It's ironic because of the expectation that Jabba would take the words as an actual compliment, while a knowledgable listener would understand than Han considers Jabba despicable. That's the famous "double audience".
The other Solo quote: "The garbage chute was a wonderful idea," is ironic in the sense of the denotative and connotative meaning being different, which is probably the second least disputed use. (It's the one Steve Martin uses in Roxanne.) Delivering such a line with the sarcastic tone that Han Solo uses pretty much eliminates the possibility of a first (naive) audience being fooled, and thus, through heavy-handedness, makes it no longer ironic, in the original sense. (Most people don't get this point, which is why the levee of the word's meaning broke and let it spill out and become so dilute that nobody knows what it means anymore.)
The Hitler picture is ironic in the sense of being incongruous, which is the most disputed, and also the most common, casual usage of the word. It's really just an example of propaganda. Unless one believes that Hitler intended a second audience, that he and his cronies were sharing a joke in a back room somewhere... but I suspect he was insanely sincere. As for the Skywalker quote, it's not ironic in any sense that I'm aware of. It seem to be a simple example of sincerity, which is practically the opposite of irony.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just going on my own understanding of the word. Oh, and why does the article "need some sort of image"? What other figure of speech article has an image? — GTBacchus 16:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Back in olden days this very article had another propaganda image of Hitler and a little girl, on the same rationale as this one. I think the double audience would be first the German people of the 1930's who didn't necessarily know what Hitler had in store and saw nothing beyond a smiling man acting like a father to a little girl and second the modern audience who sees Hitler as a menace and sees through the surface meaning of the image to realize its true horror. This article needs an image because pictures are pretty, dammit! — Phil Welch 16:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I like pictures, too. Dare you to find one for metonymy. I understand how you're seeing a double audience in the Hitler picture; I guess I was looking for it in the photographers intent. The photo wasn't intended ironically, but we look at it ironically now. I suppose that's how people use the word. It seems different to me from intentional irony, as on the part of a speaker or a writer. I admit that I tend, in the context of this article, to choose a narrow view of the word - the poor word... it's made to mean so many things, and so often nothing at all... Anyway, until I can actually come up with a better image, I'll undelurk and be quiet. GTBacchus 04:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Seems like irony to me. Solo is using a phrase the audience (Jabba, spectators and the viewing audience) would expect to hear in reference to a human to refer to an alien. 66.167.39.160 16:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A New Controversy

I just noticed that this article is a subcategory of Humor. Is it accurate to portray irony as a form of humor? Humor, I would argue, is a form of irony. All comedic forms rely on the real meaning (the "punch") which is the unexpected contradiction of that which preceeded ( the "set-up"). Whether Moe's patented eye-poke is thwarted by Curly's open palm perpindicular block or Norm MacDonald, aware of his audience's savvy, pulls a post-ironic double switch; whether a simple knock-knock joke or Andrew Dice Clay's sophmoric rewrites of Mother Goose; irony is the life-bread of comedy.

Touché. arevolvingonob

That depends on whether you think humor is supposed to be funny, or not. Irony is not necessarily funny. When it isn't funny, it is more ironic, because the humor is more unexpected. You need to ask "Now how could that be funny?" as with real life, which is not designed to be comedy but frequently turns out to be ironic. Comedy is designed to cause laughter, so its humor is intentional and not ironic. Irony causes laughter, so it is a form of humor, but not always comedy. Not everything that causes laughter is funny. IMO humor is a superset of the funny and the ironic. Irony is not necessarily unfunny, or necessarily intentional, but comedy is deliberate humor. oneismany 19:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Humor is always funny but irony is separate from humor: think "grim irony" Finding Irony in the Category Humor shouldn't confuse anyone. --Wetman 20:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler photo

I really don't see how it's ironic. It's only ironic if you agree that bonding between adult and child is opposite to genocide--which is which is highly POV. So I'm reverting it to the ol' Jabba one. Citizen Premier 00:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Irony is naturally POV. I think it's naturally unstated throughout all of this that we're depending upon a common cultural understanding and common cultural values to help determine what we consider ironic, and as such, NPOV does not extend to ignoring the highly common perception that happiness and bonding are rather opposite to mass murder. Furthermore, "the ol' Jabba picture" was posted as a placeholder after an older propaganda pic of Hitler and some little girl was removed due to uncertain copyright status. The Jabba pictures (which I posted) was widely questioned as per its usefulness, and rightly so. Furthermore, I also restored an explanatory paragraph—present in the older versions of the article—that analyses the irony of the Hitler photo. I appreciate your boldness in removing it but I think the matter deserves greater discussion. — Phil Welch 02:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any irony in the fact that Hitler wears Mickey-Mouse ears in the form of swastikas, and that his sash forms a noose that forshadows his downfall and suicide? Rncooper 16:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, but that sort of stretches it, especially since Hitler didn't hang himself. — Phil Welch 18:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Unintentional humor ≠ irony. Unintentional foreshadowing ≠ irony. Something seeming "funny" or "odd" does not guarantee that it is ironic. GTBacchus 23:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

If the article on irony is to have an image, I think we should illustrate the most accepted use of the word, not the most disputed. At least Han Solo is using irony in the classical sense, however heavy-handedly. Seeing the Hitler photo (either of them) as ironic involves "reading in" meaning that was not intended by the photographer. I get the impression that people really want the word "irony" to apply to anything that's interpreted on more than one level. You can adopt an ironical attitude, and look for conflicting meanings in everything you see, but that doesn't mean that all things are ironic.

Aye, the photo is confusing at best, not irony at worst. --24.31.29.171 13:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

A great image for the article would be a picture of Mark Antony delivering the "Friends, Romans, Countrymen" speech, which is a perfect, textbook example of irony in a sense that everyone can agree upon. I just don't know where to find a public domain photo of that, or I would. GTBacchus 23:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's something, but I don't really know much about working with images here, or what constitutes fair use, or any of that stuff. GTBacchus 23:08, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there's any question it's an idiotic picture to put on there. Well maybe there is a question that it is, but it can be easily overruled. Why would you want to confuse people who read this entry? There are better pictures with more authentic irony (and/or relevance) that can be found. arevolvingonob

Naturally, we'll be better able to assess the contributor's competence to judge after we see a more clearly ironic image added to this article, a welcome addition we await, without holding our breaths. --Wetman 01:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC). --Wetman 01:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice slam, Wetman. arevolvingonob

Yes, a fair hit. We're still waiting. Suggestions for other photos strain, through captions, to supply irony to images that are not ironic. Han Solo strolling with Jabba the Hutt is not an ironic image. And Hans' words are sarcastic, not ironic.


My suggestion would be to have this go out without a photo. arevolvingonob

Yes indeed. We've understood your subtext from the start. Where's that better picture?--Wetman 20:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine, buddy. I suggest we include a picture of Alanis Morrisette, along with a caption detailing the sad tale of her song "Ironic," which, ironically, is both ironic and non-ironic, depending on your persepective. The picture itself would also be both ironic and non-ironic. This little baklava of irony and non-irony is just what I believe this page needs. Your response I await, without holding my breath. arevolvingonob 18:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

A picture of Alanis Morrisette might be even worse than the Hitler picture. There's a Raphael painting called "The School fo Athens", and over on the left side of it, there's a bit where Socrates is talking to a few other philosophers. That would be a good image, as would a picture of some famous actor giving Marc Antony's "Friends, Romans, Countrymen" speech. Alanis Morrisette atually has nothing to do with irony, in the strict sense. And does that make the fact that we're even talking about her ironic? No, it doesn't. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh fooey. Alanis Morrisette wrote a song that intended to portray irony and failed. This is very funny. To put a picture of her on this article is also funny and far more appropriate than the current picture and is, arguably, ironic in itself. (You see, people would come to this page expecting to see something like the Socrates picture and see Alanis in all her non-glory herself.) This serves the purpose of this article far more than a picture of Socrates or an actor playing Mark Antony. (If anyone can find a picture of Marc Anthony playing Mark Antony I say we put that up.) arevolvingonob 15:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Aha! There is no picture. That's even better than the Alanis Morrisette idea. arevolvingonob 15:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh dammit, take the stupid thing off there. arevolvingonob 11:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

How is a man claiming he'll live to be 100 and dying the next day more ironic than a man refusing to fly on a plane for fear of it crashing and then dying in a plane crash on his first flight? 66.167.39.160 16:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irony in Wikipedia

It may just be a novelty of an idea, but I think that perhaps we should include some examples in this article of irony as it is used in Wikipedia. We all have seen little things here and there that constitute irony here in wikipedia (My favorite being the fact that aixelsyd links to dyslexia.) Or would this just be a waste of valuable webspace? (Much like this very paragraph, ironically.)

Tongo Zitheroo Ketchill

The 'treatment' section of hyperfocus lists abuse, stigma, and Ritalin as potential treatments. oneismany 10:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Attic Middle Comedy?

Props to Sophocles, a master of irony ("What did Laius look like? He was a black man... like you"), but etymologically, doesn't irony come from Attic middle comedy (Menander) one of whose stock characters, "ho eiron" spoke with meanings of which he was completely unaware?

As an interesting (to me) aside, the word parasite also comes from one of these stock characters, the free-loading friend who just hung around for the free food. para sitos, "next to the food." --Fulminouscherub 03:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Real meaning of Irony

In grade 8 and 9 I had the best teacher possible for English. He gave us this meaning for Irony:

1. The difference between what is said and what is meant.
2. The difference between expectation and fulfillment
3. The difference between appearence and reality

And I still remember that meaning!! MR.PELECH WAS THE BEST TEACHER!!! --(Aytakin) | Talk 23:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

unfortunately, this "meaning" doesn't capture what is meant by irony at all.

1. The difference between what is said and what is meant.

I say "let's get food" but I meant "let's leave" - not ironic.

2. The difference between expectation and fulfillment

I thought I was getting a bike for Christmas, but instead I got a toy rocket - not ironic.

3. The difference between appearence and reality

It looks like a mean dog, but the dog is friendly - not ironic.

Sorry, it's tough, I know.


The rules are valid as long as the difference opposes the original intent/ implications of the observation or expectation. Examples

1) I say "The weather seems delightful" when its a blizard.

2) I'm hoping my mom has news on whether or not I made it into the Church Choir (As you learn that the Church was really a Mafia front and has been closed down by the FBI)

3) It looks like the powerplant is working again (As the powerplant is burning) Interpretivechaos 23:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC) The "rules" are rather meaningless heuristics. They don't really add anything in terms of understanding what irony is, and they disregard the distinction between situational and verbal irony. We could toss those rules completely and go with what you wrote and it would be better: "the difference opposes the original intent/ implications of the observation or expectation."

________________

Why delete this response?

Again, I say, the "rules" as laid out by the original poster are nothing more than relatively meaningless heuristics. They don't really add anything in terms of understanding what irony is, and they disregard the distinction between situational and verbal irony.

If counterexamples exist, then they aren't good rules - even if they are "valid" for some examples.

I agree with you that the rules don't add anything- at best anything along that lines is a Litmus Test for irony and not an inclusive definition. Since the goal of the article is to tell them what irony is, and not ways to recognize irony... Interpretivechaos 18:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I think we should remove it. It's a PoV. --Haham hanuka 18:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"POV" refers to a violation of mainstream neutrality. All interpretation of cultural material of any kind involves just such a point-of-view. Our self-appointed censorship expert cannot seem to provide another example of visual irony to add to this one, though she has been invited to do so. He hope she can begin some positive editing here. Reverts are inappropriate behavior. We'd all appreciate a little less "POV" from this individual. --Wetman 22:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

(Rather than contribute further images that are examples of visual irony, User:Haham hanuka has chosen to apply a "Disputed POV" label to the article as a whole. There are occasions when more fastidious Wikipedians might like to apply the "Disputed POV" label, but are reluctant to, simply because of the connotations acquired by the label from usages like this one. For the rest of us, more examples of visual irony shouldn't be hard to find: they are the stock-in-trade of photojournalism. --Wetman 22:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC))

I agree that no image at all is better than the Hitler image. Can't we just get rid of it, and then the POV tag problem goes away? -GTBacchus(talk) 04:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I have been bold, and changed the picture and removed the tag. Now we have a more clearly ironic image, with no connotations to fight about. OK, now who's going to nominate me for admin? ;-) --Slashme 07:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

In fixing the formerly somewhat laborous caption I have tried to express the difference between the paradox that is presented in the picture, and the viewer's ironical appreciation of it. If we're editing here and still can't tell paradox from irony, then suppressing the propaganda photo of Hitler must have other motivations than that it simply "isn't an example of visual irony". What's the real issue here? Someone who thinks the text referring to the propaganda photo is "unfair" to Hitler should put that "disputed POV" label right back. --Wetman 23:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not about whether the text is "unfair" to Hitler. The article is about irony. Bringing a controversial topic like Hitler into it is unnecessary. It's much better to use a neutral picture, and simply avoid the topic. Let the guys who maintain the Hitler page suffer with the debates about his legacy. We can simply work on creating a great article about irony and avoid the issue.

The distinction you make between paradox and the ironical appreciation of paradox is a good one. Meanwhile, that doesn't make the Hitler photo a good example. I don't think it's a POV issue; I just really think it's a poor example that tends to perpetuate sloppy use of the word "irony" to refer to any perceived incongruity, which I don't think we need to encourage, since many authorities consider that a mis-use of the word. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that a gym with escalators is paradoxical at all. A paradox implies a contradiction. The example given in this article of people being laid off at the unemployment department because of falling unemployment rates is perfect: Laying them off increases unemployment, the lack of which was the reason for them losing their jobs. There is no actual contradiction in the escalators at the gym: You can still get your exercise — the escalators don't prevent the exercise from taking place. It is, however, ironic, as the patrons are avoiding exercise on their way to pay to do exercise. --Slashme 08:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The above is perfectly indicative of the level at which this article must be edited. I am removing "Irony" from my Watchlist, to the relief of all. --Wetman 09:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This picture seems extremely inappropriate. The article seems, for the most part, to acknowledge that this sort of usage of the term 'irony' is controversial at best. This picture depicts a situation that many people would indeed call 'ironic', but that use of the term would make many other people cringe. Having the picture strikes me as an endorsement of one side of the argument (the wrong one, but never mind that). Ncsaint 21:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dramatic/Tragic Irony

I understand that these are the same thing- so shouldn't at least some mention be made under the Tragic Irony section (especially since earlier on the page it refers to Dramatic Irony) Interpretivechaos 23:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Goes ahead and changes the previous mention to Tragic, and mentions they are the same thing in the Dramatic part. Interpretivechaos 19:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The New Century Dictionary

1954 edition's entry for irony reads as follows:


Dissimulation, esp. simulated ignorance in discussion ("Socratic irony"); also, a method of expression or a figure of speech in which the literal meaning of the words is the opposite of the thought in the speaker's mind and intended to be conveyed, and which is employed in ridicule or contempt or merely playfully; usually, agreeable or complimentary language intended to convey an opposite meaning (as, "A drayman in a passion calls out, 'You are a pretty fellow,' without suspecting that he is uttering irony": Macaulay's "Essays," Lord Bacon); also an ironical utterance or expression; an ironical quality (as, "There was a staid irony in his tone": Kingsley's "Yeast," iii.); also, an outcome of events contrary to what was, or what might have been, expected (as, it was the irony of fate that made Joseph the ruler over the land of his captivity).

dated, much. but it may give some perspective.

[edit] Alanis Morissette

Is there any way we can have the redirect show up only if the user types in "ironic"? Or, do away with it altogether? It's borderline. --Candybars 00:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the best way to go about this, but this is all I can think of. I don't remember the term from school, but there was a form of irony taught to us that had to do with the cultural expectation that weather and\or location match circumstances, something which books, plays, movies, and T.V. shows use. For example: It raining during a funeral, or it being sunny for a graduation. I bring this up, because, since the average person's psyche does this no matter how ridiculous it is, it's how the mind works. So...most people expect one's wedding day to be nice and sunny, so it raining on one's wedding day would seem to be situationally ironic I would think, since it's based off of people's expectations of how environment should fit circumstance. Also, I'd like to comment about the line that says something about being in a traffic jam, while running late. It, to me, seems reminiscent of the picture Wikipedia presents of a "Dead End" sign at a graveyard. If that's irony...shouldn't that line from the song also be irony?

                    J.B.K.  JBKostrzewa@comcast.net

[edit] Comic irony

There is no accual deffinition guys, just pointing it out [unsigned]

[edit] Spoiler sections

Should be cut entirely from this article, especally since right above at least one of them is a link to the example. Spoiler sections are for articles about movies, books, TV shows, etc, not definations of words. Joncnunn 13:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Brit?"

in the final paragraph should a British person really described as a 'Brit'??

doesn't sound very good, even slightly offensive. {{subst:unsigned213.146.133.4}}

[edit] Ahh. Confusing and long.

Needs work on being concise/organized. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Karch (talk • contribs) .


This article does need to be improved. Many examples of irony aren't even ironic in any way. Poorly written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azn Clayjar (talk • contribs) .

[edit] simpsons

it's funny how this article tries to describe the brilliance of homer's humor when it was just another example of "homer is stupid, lough with him, he doesn't know what irony is". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.76.99.106 (talk • contribs) .

Not really-- It's Skinner who makes the comment —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.18.89.218 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] The ultimate irony

Located here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Irony

Prove me wrong —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fo0hzy (talk • contribs) .

Actually that isn't ironic at all. Self-referential yes. I suppose everyone was being sincere about irony but that isn't ironic just maybe a little self-important.--Jsn4 06:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this Irony?

Us Brits always go on about our use of Irony as if we invented it which other nations don't have the same apprecitaion (I call it self and imposed depreciation myself). Of course this is not true. However what about these two stories; both on the Song "Always look on the bright side of life" - one time it was sung was during the Falklands war by sailors on the deck of a sinking ship, the other by supporters of the failed Manchester bid for the Olympics - would you define this as Irony, or at least an attempt at being Ironic? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.92.40.49 (talk • contribs) .

I wouldn't. I'd say those are two classic examples gallows humor, but not irony in the strict sense. To be fair, the modern, less-accepted usage of irony probably does cover your examples, but then, the modern usage covers almost everything. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
How is the first not a classic example of irony? The second isn't at all but the first seems to fit the traditional usage quite well.--Jsn4 14:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uncredited reference?

I swear the below was in the movie Time Bandits. Can anyone else confirm this?

A shipboard scene of reconciliation and hope for an estranged couple ends with the camera pulling back to reveal a life preserver stenciled “RMS Titanic.”

Amnesiak 15:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I never saw Time Bandits but a I know an early issue of Mad Magazine included this in an article about movie clichés: "Aw, look at the young lovers. Wait a sec, those poor kids are on the Titanic!" BryanEkers 01:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irony#Cultural_variation

I removed "good and nice" from "every good and nice culture" to leave "every culture" as those modifiers struck me as POV. Revert if you wish. ++Lar: t/c 05:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verbal irony

The recent deletion should stand as this addition is not appropriate in the verbal irony section. A distinction between "deliberate sarcasm" and "simple irony" is not actually different from the distinction already made in the section; that is, the irony becomes "verbal irony" when it is communicated intentionally as opposed to, for example, situational irony. The author contends that the button message during the Watergate hearings was "considered sarcasm," but by whom? This claim actually reflects a common confusion noted in the section - most instances of irony are mistakenly overgeneralized to be sarcasm. It is a form of intentionally produced irony to use Nixon's slogan against him later, but the example does not demonstrate anything substantial, and is not a good example of "sarcasm" as sarcasm has been defined in the psycholinguistic literature. Researchers in this area of inquiry do not use the terms "deliberate sarcasm" or "simple irony" either, so the addition muddles the discussion. --Jcrabb 22:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. It works much better for me than a simple deletion from a anonymous IP, and I'll respect your edit.
I will admit to being partial to the use of the Nixon slogan as deliberate sarcasm, steming from the historical irony of a campaign slogan changing meanings in context, later. But of course these things are personal, like humor. I think it's an excellent example of sarcasm, and you may disagree, and so it is with humor. But-- how about this-- if you don't like this example, could you provide a better one? An article like this one, like one on humor, needs references that are genuinely funny to most people. And it's already doing a good job (the Virginia Employment Agency example is exquisite, and it's not mine). So let's try to keep this up through the whole thing. You might not like my example here, but it's better than nothing as an illustration of sarcasm, and your proposed dissection here is certainly delicate enough that illustrative examples are needed. So-- onus is now on you, oh scholar! Let's see you do better! SBHarris 02:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, Jcrabb? Due to your impressive use of formal journal references and catchphrases like "psycholinguistic theorists," we understand you to be some sort of academic. Perhaps a full Professor of Ironicothinkology at a major university. As such, in keeping with your impatient deletions of my own humble illustrations, I’m waiting for your own heart-pounding, argument-stopping examples of what it is you're talking about. In other words, I'm waiting to see you hurl bolts of pure electric sarcasm, in keeping with your suggestion that you understand it much better than other mortals, or at least the other mortals who toil as editors here. Surely, since we've all waited this long for them, you're preparing something overwhelming; pure jolts of verbal irony so completely stunning as to cause us to remove our hats and weep. So don't keep us in suspense any longer!! SBHarris 23:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I apologize to the masses of people who are awaiting my example of sarcasm. The importance of such an endeavor has not escaped my thoughts for any length of time since my dialogue with the good doctor began. Unfortunately, as I was preparing my mind blowing explication I was struck by an overwhelming wave of theoretical angst that mysteriously caused me to temporarily forget this exchange.
Sarcasm? No. Parody? Not really. Satire? Pretty much. Verbal irony? Definitely.
I explained in my first note here that the article contains an example of an utterance "I'm not angry!" that becomes verbal irony by virtue of the speaker's intention. I then pointed out that sarcasm is widely considered (in circles of figurative language scholars) to be a form of verbal irony that instantiates ironic ridicule towards an individual or group of people. It seems that a gratuitious example with a humorous element to draw in the many otherwise unwilling and bored readers seemed superfluous. But I put some in anyway - it's better.
My problem with your addition was the term "deliberate sarcasm" (since all sarcasm is deliberate really) and the distinction between this and "simple irony" (as opposed to complex irony?) The part about the Nixon example that's funny (and I do think it's funny, don't get me wrong) is that the slogan was originally created by the Nixon campaign. That's the irony: it's intentional irony, but not really sarcasm as it has been defined in the literature. Like I said earlier, researchers are more conservative with the definition of sarcasm (and all tropes), but people generally call most forms of intentional irony "sarcastic." That is fine. I think many people understand different kinds of ironies quite well, and whether they call it sarcasm or verbal irony doesn't really matter. But for those who study it as a linguistic and communicative phenomenon, finer definitions are needed. So, good doctor, that's what I'm trying to convey in the verbal irony section.
Jcrabb 10:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Professor of Ironicothinkology
Major University
Big Town USA

[edit] Irony as absolute "negativity"?

Gak! Why hijack a perfectly good word for this? Surely there are other, better names for the state of hopeless and depressive muddling about? Weltaunschaung? Or maybe Existential despair? (especially if you're going to use Søren Kierkegaard as illustration)? Irony generally must include the elements of the sort of humor generated by the ignorance of children or mortals (whose understanding is childlike in retrospect, given events), and it's something more than just wallowing about in tragedy. Some saving insight or illuminating contrast between idealism and reality, must be lurking in the wings. Spare me from "disruptive forces" and "incomprehensibility." And stomach swallowing and navel gazing, too, please! You might as well babble or have monkeys at the typewriter. There's nothing so humorless as a deconstructionist. SBHarris 22:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is this "Cohen"? Ali G? 66.167.39.160 19:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zits

todays's Zit's comic was about irony, and actually seemed to use it pretty well. Would adding it to the article be a good idea? Yoyogod 15:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I get the impression that loading up with too many references might not be a good thing. That said, a recent Irregular webcomic addresses this topic in some depth (in the annotations) ++Lar: t/c 10:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Irwin's death

Yes, Steve Irwin's death was tragic (and I was a fan), but nearly every news-source noted that it was pretty ironic for a man who made his living consorting up close with the world's most dangerous animals, to finally meet his end at the tail of one that hardly ever is lethal. So why remove this excellent modern example of irony? SBHarris 20:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


I don't know. Personally I think the page would be better without it--there are enough examples and it's still a little "too soon". Just my opinion. 24.131.14.253 04:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, perhaps still too raw for some. I'll take it out and see if anybody else wants it in. SBHarris 05:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see it as ironic at all. It's like saying it's ironic that Billy the Kid, a gun-fighter, was killed by a gun.

Had he been killed by capgun, it would have been ironic. And that's about what happened to Irwin. Stingray deaths are so rare there isn't even a list of them, as there is for sharks. SBHarris 20:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seymour Cray's supercomputer

"Seymour Cray, supercomputer architect, died of head and neck injuries suffered in a traffic collision. His vehicle — a Jeep Cherokee — was designed using a Cray supercomputer."

I would say, this is only ironic if the cause of the accident was technical malfunction due to errors in the supercomputer. Otherwise there is no connection, and this example should be removed. Apus 12:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree, and have thought so since reading it. Jeeps are dangerous, and supercomputers aren't God. Supercomputers don't guarantee perfection, or car models which make drivers accident-injury proof (especially when the car model is stuck within fixed parameters-- you can't make something that looks like a hummer and call it a "jeep"). This is similar to a previous example which thought it ironic that the head of the world health organization should get sick. So what? Who guaranteed he wouldn't? Does anything think the title confers immortality? Anyway, since that makes two of us, I'm going to remove the item. The person who added it is free to re-add and defend if is indeed the case of computer-error or something of the kind that contributed to Cray's death. SBHarris 17:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The cremation picture

It seriously took me forever looking through the history before I figured out why it was in the article (the edit note saying "note the cigarette"). There's no explaination for it at all in the main article or the caption of the picture. I don't think the average reader will be able to figure out why it's there. It just looks like a mistaken link or vandalism at this point. PK9 23:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I suppose we should just put in "note cigarette" as the caption. SBHarris 05:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "Charles Justice" story

Hey,

I was trying to find a reference for the Charles Justice story ("At the turn of the 19th century, Charles Justice, a prison inmate at the Ohio State Penitentiary, devised an idea to improve the efficiency of the restraints on the electric chair. After a parole, he was convicted in a robbery/murder and returned to prison 13 years later under a death sentence. On November 9, 1911, he was electrocuted in the same electric chair that he had helped to improve.[citation needed]"). I found evidence that a Charles Justice was executed on October 27, 1911 [1], as well as two references to articles in the Akron Beacon Journal which have the entire story in its entirity ([2], [3]), which is backed by another personal website [4]. This story has also been published by NewsNet5 and Online Opinion Australia. I'm not sure how citable any of these sources are; however, the fact that two webpages have the same copy of the Akron Beacon Journal suggests that it might be genuine. Still, it'll be nice if we could find a better reference.

I'm leaving these links around in case somebody with more time wants to get to the bottom of this.

cheers, Gaurav 14:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Kennedy

"In response to Mrs. Connally's comment, "Mr. President, you can't say that Dallas doesn't love you." John F. Kennedy uttered his last words, "That's very obvious." "

Is this really ironic? Kennedy wasn't stomped to death by a mob of angry Dallasites. 66.167.39.160 16:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, the statement fell spectacularly short of being 100% true. SBHarris 20:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is it ironic...

That "abbreviation" is a relatively long word but there's a way you can use the term while only using a fraction of the letters(abbr)? 66.167.39.160 18:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it ironic that "lisp" has an s in it? 66.167.39.160 19:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

See the ironically humorous pronunciations of lisp on Wiktionary. Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 20:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Far Side Cat joke ironic?

I found this article useful but I wasn't sure if the bit under Comic Irony (a cat being trapped inside the house when a bird truck and a mouse truck crash. I don't see how this any different from the example of a misuse about how the beer company heir was allergic to beer. If someone could explain it would be useful.

Agreed. It is unfortunate, but how is it ironic? Fishhead64 19:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
A better example is the one with the detectives entering an office filled with cat corpses and one detective points out all the scientific formulae written on blackboards and whatnot, claiming "Curiosity killed these cats." More generically, the word "ironic" is becoming tragically over-used, being invoked whenever anything coincidental or comical happens. BryanEkers 02:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] types of irony

Why is the first one Leviathan? Am I missing something?

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