Talk:Iranian women

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Contents 1 Comment 2 Cleanup needs help! 3 clarifications 3.1 The Persian = Iranian mess 4 wedding tradition 5 Tajik women picture 6 Khorda Avesta quote 7 Leftover pic 8 Massive deletions

[edit] Comment

Persian is assosiated to a sub language developed from the varies indoeuropean accents (I would rather say Aryan tribals whom moved into Iran platoue). Another fact is the inspirations Persian language has gotten during trades, contacts, conflicts and also invations from alien cultures, such as islamic expeditions into Persian empire and Moghol empire.

An amazing fact is that the ALIEN invaders soon became in love with this language served it tremendiously towards a more complexion and beauty! Specially the Moghols IL KHANISM federation gives us enough clue to know period of rennaisance in Persia as well as the language and other artistic arenas.

The above facts fullfilled enough materials to make Persian poetry unic in many fields and specificly the place "HUMANITY" has in Persian artistic expressions is sentral and even prior to the once ethnic or ethnics who spoke this language !

The Universalism of this language has a sentral ICON: HUMAN BEING !

Another specificness is the non subjective ways of expressions. The masculine form of HE and feminine SHE in Persian is the same world "OO", or things are not expressed as masculine - feminine unlike French or Arabic.

The language is rich with poetic literature engaged in philosophy, life, ethics, epics, religion, metaphyzic and universalities.

Many Poets are non Persian ethnics from North India, sentral Asia to Caucasian regions.

An example would be Azeri speaking Arans. At times they are the leading front figures whom produce master work bring new impulses to enrich the Persian Language ! I am not exagerating if I say the Persian language yielded more by Turkic speaking ethinics rather than Persians!

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Persian is just be one of the iran's total nations and calling iranian womans equal to persian womans is not true so please change the name of persian to Iran if it's possible. Iran is multi national multi cultural country. There are alot of other nations like azeri (Azerbaijani) nearly 30 milion, Kurdi (4 milion) , Arab 2 milion), Baloch,etc.

This page was originally about Persian women. It includes all ethnic persians (and Tajik and Parsi of India) and also women of Persia (the previous name of Iran). There are other articles for other groups. Please see Kurdish Women page as an example. Here we also include those whose mother or father or some of their grand parents were persian (e.g. half persian-half azeri etc). It also includes those who adopted persian culture for example Iranian christians. Besides the article includes those non-persian women who significantly contributed to Persian culture (non-persian directors who are famous of their Persian movies or non-Persian musicians who contributed to Persian music). There are some issues that all Iranian women share, particularly in contemporary Iran. In such cases the word Iranian has been used in the article. However examples have been selected from Persian ethnics. In summary, this page was made originally for Persian women throughout centuries. For other groups there exist separate pages or there are pages under construction. Please also notice that the word persian does not necessarily mean ethnic persian. In western literature, all people of Persia are called Persian, irrespective of their ethnicity. --Joe Dynue19:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"Persian" here is not used as an ethnic word. It is a cultural one. That said, we will try to incorporate the name Iranian in as much as we can from now on. The article is not meant to be exclusive.--Zereshk 00:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes. "Persian" is a cultural word here. I think the article has made this point very clear, right at the begining. As I said, even European iranologists who adopted persian culture may be inculded here. For contemporary Iran, I also suggest people to use the word Iranian instead of Persian in this article. --Joe Dynue10:12, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

You have stated that Iran was previously called Persia. I know that Iran was (mistakenly) called Persia by the greeks and then europeans in the past but I don't believe that the whole country was ever called Persia by its people. If this is what you claim please present a proof of it.Definite 01:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup needs help!

Well, I think this article is in need of a pretty massive rewrite. It needs copy-edit (which I was here to look at); it needs to be better about NPOV (the first "historical" section is quite rantish); it needs more referencing. It's also kind of an external link farm at the end, many of which are useless to English speakers. I'm going to try to copy-edit in my free time, but I think this article needs help from all. Please be bold., this article needs it. --will 20:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont think it's as bad as you say. But then again, more material can be added. And I can transfer the pics to a special gallery page, such as the ones seen here: Wikipedia:List of images/Places/Asia/Iran.--Zereshk 04:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, after reading the article a second time, I rescind my harsh first and last statements. --will 09:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

So, what do you think the article is lacking? I'll do some readings in the next few weeks and see what I can come up with.--Zereshk 02:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

In the mean time, I'll make the gallery.--Zereshk 22:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: Gallery Completed. Provided link. Please feel free to fill it with Public Domain/GDFL/GNU images.--Zereshk 23:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] clarifications

"Although Persian women are often viewed as Iranian, they are not necessarily of any specific nationality or ethnicity."

If they are Persian, they are of a specific ethnicity: Persian. Persian is not just a language, it is first and foremost an ethnicity. Then it is a language and if someone is Persian, they didn't become Persian because they can speak the language. I'm changing it and requesting that no one revert the statement,

Any suggestions why Persian women are renowned fot their beauty? --Vladko 05:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Persian is not an ethnicity. It is a cultural word (just like the word European). There is no set of genes that define persians. Original Persians married many different races, and the only thing that remained invarient was the culture and language. In Iran Persian is equal to Persian speaker. I hope it is clear now. Sangak 13:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sangak, your explanation about what persian means is interesting. A question I have is about what you mean by "In Iran Persian is equal to Persian speaker." I don't think the word "persian" exists in farsi, are you talking about when the english word "persian" is used in Iran? or are you referring to the word "fars" as a translation of the word "persian?" Also what do you think the situation is when the cultures are mixed? like azaris also have the same new year (bayram). Maybe we should use "Iranian and Persian women" and add an explanation of what the difference is and how it's sometimes hard to tell who is persian and who isn't. --Definite 00:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

We have the orientalists to thank this confusion for:)--Zereshk 02:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Persian = Iranian mess

Why on god's green earth are Persians constantly referred to as Iranian? There are expats who moved long before there was an Islamic Republic, they embrace being Persian. The fact that this redirects to a nationality (in a nation where Persians only barely make the majority) is troublesome. What are the politics behind redirecting an article about the ethnic Persians to a lumped article about the people in a country? I guess the squeaky wheels won the day on Wikipedia, again. --Bobak 02:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] wedding tradition

I am also wondering why there is an explanation of the persian wedding tradition under persian women. Why is this necessary? Isn't a wedding ceremony in general related to men and women? --Definite 00:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tajik women picture

I have tagged it as dubious. That isn't what I'd expect to be "traditional" dress somehow; it has a decidedly Western look to it. Of course, I am ignorant, so let's get the sources for that. The Behnam 05:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Khorda Avesta quote

From Avesta.org: "We also worship the Ashavan woman, predominating in good thoughts, predominating in good words, predominating in good deeds, well instructed, 3 having power over the masters , Ashavan, (as are) Spenta Armaiti and your females, O Ahura Mazda."

The version used in the article added a lot to this. Besides, most of the inclusions are OR or from unreliable sources anyway, but I thought it was worth illustrating this one. The Behnam 06:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leftover pic

This was removed because I got rid of the "Mother Goddess" section. I'm thinking that it could replace one of the Safavid pictures since there are already two, but I'll put it here for now.

At second thought this doesn't appear to have the historical value that the others works do, so I don't think we really need it in the article. The Behnam 23:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massive deletions

I think there should be a discusison on the talk page before anyone removes that much information. That is the best method, from what I can see, there were no citation needed tags placed before The Behnam cited OR before removing almost all of the article or any significant discussion.

Dont you think you should have asked for sources or atleast put citation needed tags on for awhile? I'm going to revert the article for now and place a tag on top that says this article seems to be OR and that citations need to be placed for now.Azerbaijani 19:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you just take a close look over the edits? I think that Fullstop and I did a good job, but of course I welcome feedback. I asked Sina Kardar for feedback right after I did them but he doesn't seem active. I wasn't going to write a little summary since nobody seemed to be here and I wanted to improve it fast. The Behnam 19:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry for "rvv" i meant "rv" The Behnam 19:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Unilateral mass deletion of half of the article is not really an improvement. You should at least try to get consensus for such sweeping edits. --Mardavich 03:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Well please look over the edits made and tell me your specific objections. Sure it is an improvement if the article is improved by removing that junk. The Behnam 15:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)