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[edit] Disputed tag:formal government

Although there were clashes between Bazargan's government and some of the revolutionary councils but it was was a revolutionary organization too. "the formal government and the revolutionary organizations. The Khomeini-appointed Prime Minister Mehdi Bazargan worked to establish a reformist democratic government." sounds wrong.

There is abundant evidence that Bazargan considered himself a reformist and that his government came into conflict with Khomeini's plan for replacing the Constituent Assembly with an Assembly of Experts, etc. (see for example: p.216-7, Khomeini: Life of the Ayatollah by Baqer Moin) --Leroy65X 01:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


Also "formal government" is a wrong expression. It was a temporary government which should manage the country and established new State.--Sa.vakilian 03:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I think Provisional Revolutionary GOvernment was the official title. At least Keddie uses it. Leroy65X 17:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with "Provisional Revolutionary GOvernment" with you.--Sa.vakilian 03:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy check

The article needs a serious accuracy check - I've noted a number of serious mistakes here and there. I don't have time right now but later I'll try to list every single infraction. I'd also suggest avoiding sources that violate WP:RS. The article definitely, definitely needs overhaul to fall in line with WP:NPOV. Right now in its current state the article is very anti-revolution. Looking at earlier versions, the article before was pro-revolution. The people editing this article need to cool their POV and find the middle ground. Khodavand 16:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

The article carries the warning:

"This page is 61 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles"

And now you Sa.vakilian have added SEVEN different expansion tags??? I have to consider this vandalism --Leroy65X 18:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

These are very important issues and we can't neglect them.At least we should list them and write somr paragraphs about them. --Sa.vakilian 18:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I put them back per your plan to set up seperate article if they get too long. They are part of the revolution, though whether they are "very important" is a matter of dispute.
I've been working on the article for some time, and all these new sections will screw up its readability, but I confess the organizations do need to be at least described and I have not done so. I propose a section titled something like
Organizations of the Revolution,
with a paragraph or so for each one. --Leroy65X 23:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
You're right. We don't need too many sections which I made. I propose a section for events, a section for organizations, a section for parties and popular movements.--Sa.vakilian 03:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
*??? events:Including 12 Farvardin, Election and refrandom of constitution , 13 Aban and so on.
*Revolutionary organizations: The committees of Islamic revolution, Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps,Jihad of construction, Oppressed mobilization(بسيج مستضعفين)و)...
*Parties and Movements Islamic republic party, Student's followes the path of Imam , ...

--Sa.vakilian 03:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

Sa.vakilian, I'm rewriting your intro with an emphasis on a quick descrption of dates of the revolution. I'm going to eliminate the stuff about the revolution having "two parts", at least in the intro. I am assuming you are in favor of this. (It was there before I started editing this article and I assumed it had the consensus of editors, but obviously it don't. I have heard Iranians talk about it, but have found nothing in print about "two parts")

I guess wikipedia policy is to keep the intros short so I'm going trim down the first part of the article and merge it with your "intro" so there is only one intro. Judging from that editor who deleted my quote in the old intro there should not be block quotes in the introductions. --Leroy65X 17:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Good article criteria a good lead shouldn't be more than 4 paragraph.
It's already four paragraphs long.
I want to a summary about this revolution in lead and write something about its importance and situation in Intro. I mean we can write why it has recognized as a revolution
That part is obvious. Just describing the revolution makes it clear it was a genuine revolution. Its not a disputed issue. --Leroy65X 00:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
and what is its idealogy. This is my suggestion and we should debate on it. If you disagree with putting them in ntro then we can make a new section and call it "Revolution and its ideology" before or after "Reasons for the revolution".
On the other hand I'm sure that opposition of Islamic republic believe in "two parts" theory thus we can't remove it from the begining of the article. --Sa.vakilian 18:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
AFAICT it isn't a major issue. Obviously there is a natural split in the revolution between between the rebellion itself and then the revolutionaries in power, and the disimpowering of the non-Khomeinists is an issue. But I can't find anything that says the revolution is divided into "two parts." The editor who wrote it seems to be long gone. -- Leroy65X 00:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I should express my idea again. I leave the idea of introduction. There's important informations about importance and situation of revolution and we can make a new section about revolution and explain its importance, ideology and organization in it.--Sa.vakilian 03:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
OK the intro needs a brief basic description of what, when, why. I will fight to keep my stuff about the uniqueness of the rev and the differences over the revolution's results. How about using, expanding the first two paragraphs? --Leroy65X 17:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Although I agree with writing an intro about "what, when and why" of revolution ,I don't insist on it. We can write a new part for "Iranian Revolution's ideology" . But lead is very good and we shouldn't add anything to it.--Sa.vakilian 18:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you agree the lead is good. --Leroy65X 21:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ideology section and other rewriting

This is getting to propagandistic. I'm going to have to tag it. --Leroy65X 15:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The "Ideology of revolution" section is not "encyclopedic", it's an editorial about why the revolution represented true shia islam. It's POV. --Leroy65X 16:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It's POV and the others should participate and make it NPOV.--Sa.vakilian 17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Another problem is quoting Foucault. He is widely criticized by both friends and enemies for his praise of the Iranian Revolution

...Since their publication, the reputation of these writings [by Foucault] has grown rather than diminished and they have helped us to conceptualize gender, sexuality, knowledge, power, and culture in new and important ways. Paradoxically, however, his extensive writings and interviews on the Iranian Revolution have experienced a different fate, ignored or dismissed even by thinkers closely identified with Foucault's perspectives.
Attempts to bracket out Foucault's writings on Iran as "miscalculations," or even "not Foucauldian," remind one of what Foucault himself had criticized in his well-known 1969 essay, .... (from [1])
I didn't quote his ideas but quoted the slogans which he mentioned in his report.--Sa.vakilian 17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's another problem. You misquoted:

`... the main slogan was "Independence, Freedom, and Islamic Republic".`

you cite an article: http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/111/11101106.pdf, but that article (which is not very complemenatry of the islamic revolution and its sex segregation BTW) says it was "one of the most popular slogans," not "the main slogan." --Leroy65X 16:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with one of the main slogan. --Sa.vakilian 17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Two problems with quote below: its verbatim which means its in violation of copyright law, and while Wright (the author of the quote) is a reputable correspondent, she is NOT an authority on Shia Islam.

That power explains why Ayatollah Khomeini emerged as a natural leader to unite both secular and religious opposition against a twentieth-century dynasty. Islam, which makes no distinction between the powers of Caesar and God, had also long been a nationalist force in Iran. Shi'ism also had been a source of national identity — even among those less than devout.[47] --Leroy65X 19:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I understand this problem but as an Iranian Shi'a I don't have any problem with it. Is there any source which has contradiction with it.--Sa.vakilian 19:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ayatollah Khomeini's commandment for Bazargan

There is an imortant document which shows Khomeini knew and represented what he wanted since arrival in Iran. Unfortunately I couldn't find it in English.

This is the commandment in Persian: جناب‌ آقای‌ مهندس‌ بازرگان‌ بنا به‌ پیشنهاد شورای‌ انقلاب‌، برحَسَب‌ حق‌ّ شرعی‌ و حق‌ّ قانونی‌ ناشی‌ از آرای‌اكثریت‌ قاطع‌ قریب‌ به‌ اتّفاِق ملت‌ ایران‌ كه‌ طی‌ اجتماعات‌ عظیم‌ و تظاهرات‌وسیع‌ و متعدد در سراسر ایران‌ نسبت‌ به‌ رهبری‌ جنبش‌ ابراز شده‌ است‌ و به‌موجب‌ اعتمادی‌ كه‌ به‌ ایمان‌ راسخ‌ شما به‌ مكتب‌ مقدس‌ اسلام‌ و اطلاعی‌ كه‌ ازسوابقتان‌ در مبارزات‌ اسلامی‌ و ملی‌ دارم‌، جناب‌عالی‌ را بدون‌ در نظر گرفتن‌روابط‌ حزبی‌ و بستگی‌ به‌ گروهی‌ خاص‌ مأمور تشكیل‌ دولت‌ موقت‌ می‌نمایم‌ تاترتیب‌ اداره‌ی‌ امور مملكت‌ و خصوصاً انجام‌ رفراندوم‌ و رجوع‌ به‌ آرای‌ عمومی‌ملت‌ درباره‌ی‌ تغییر نظام‌ سیاسی‌ كشور به‌ جمهوری‌ اسلامی‌ و تشكیل‌ مجلس‌مؤسسان‌ از منتخبین‌ مردم‌ جهت‌ تصویب‌ قانون‌ اساسی‌ نظام‌ جدید و انتخاب‌مجلس‌ نمایندگان‌ ملّت‌ بر طبق‌ قانون‌ اساسی‌ جدید را بدهید. مقتضی‌ است‌ كه‌اعضای‌ دولت‌ موقت‌ را هر چه‌ زودتر با توجه‌ به‌ شرایطی‌ كه‌ مشخص‌ نموده‌ام‌تعیین‌ و معرفی‌ نمایید. كارمندان‌ دولت‌ و ارتش‌ و افراد ملت‌ با دولت‌ موقت‌ شما همكاری‌ كامل‌ نموده‌و رعایت‌ انضباط‌ را برای‌ وصول‌ به‌ اهداف‌ مقدس‌ انقلاب‌ و سامان‌ یافتن‌ اموركشور خواهند نمود. موفقیت‌ شما و دولت‌ موقت‌ را در این‌ مرحله‌ی‌ حساس‌ تاریخی‌ از خداوندمتعال‌ مسئلت‌ می‌نمایم‌.روح‌الله الموسوی‌ الخمینی‌[2]

I tried to translate it but it was too difficult and I might make some mistakes. Please correct it and put it in Iranian revolution#Khomeini returns to Tehran

He appointed his own competing interim prime minister Mehdi Bazargan on February 4.

According to his commandment to Bazargan:

"On the basis of suggestion of Revolutionary Council, according to religious right and legal right which originated from the vote of certain majority of Iranian nation for leadership of the movement which has been represented in the vast gatherings and wide demonstrations in total area of Iran and because of mu trust on your solid faith in holy school of Islam and my information of your precedent in Islamic and national fights, I appoint you without taking into consideration your relationship with any parties and dependence in especial group to for formation of temporary government to arrange organizing of country affairs and especially perform referendum and refer to public vote of nation about turning the country into Islamic republic and formation of "Establishment council" from the representatives of people to approve of constitution of new regime and election of representatives of parliament of nation on the basis of new constitution... "

--Sa.vakilian 12:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That translation you requested is rough because the first sentence is the size of a normal English paragraph. It seems you did most of the job though and I gave it a shot (although my interest in wikipedia is with regards to history).

According to his commandment to Bazargan: "Respected Engineer Bazargan. Based the recommendations of Revolutionary Council, and in accordance with the religious rights and legal rights which originated from the vote of overwhelming majority of Iranian nation for leadership of the movement which has been represented in the vast gatherings and wide demonstrations in total area of Iran and because of my utmost trust on your solid faith in holy school of Islam and my knowledge of your precedent in Islamic and national endeavors, I appoint you. This appointment was taken without taking into consideration your relationship with any parties and dependence in especial group and was taken in order for formation of temporary government to arrange organizing of country affairs and especially perform a referendum and refer to public vote of nation about turning the country into Islamic republic and formation of "Establishment council" from the representatives of people to approve of constitution of new regime and on the basis this new constitution, the election of representatives of parliament of nation. It is necessary that you appoint and introduce the members of the temporary government as soon as possible in concordance with the conditions I have clarified. Government and military officials and citizens of the country are urged to cooperate fully with your temporary government and adhere to reach the goals of the holy revolution and establish order to the affairs of the country. At this sensitive juncture of history, I praise and ask God for your success and that of the temporary government.’’ Ruhollah Al-Musavi al-Khomeini

I do not have time right now to refurbish the translation, but I think you can take it from here. --alidoostzadeh 17:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont know where exactly you wish the translation to be pasted, but here is my non-rigorous translation:

"Based on the proposal of the Revolutionary Council, by the canonical and legal rights vested unanimously by the vote of the Iranian nation for the leadership of the movement as has been expressed in the vast gatherings and ubiquitous demonstrations across the country, and by virtue of the trust I have in your firm belief in the holy tenents of Islam and your resume in past Islamic and national struggles, I appoint you the authority to establish the interim government without consideration of any affiliation to any parties or dependence on any factional groups, so as to arrange the organization of the affairs of the state, and to especially make preparations for a public referendum by which to transform the state into an Islamic republic, and the formation of "The Council of the Founders" from those elected by the people so as to legislate the constitution of the new state, and to hold elections of representatives of parliament on the basis of the new constitution."
"It is imperitave that you nominate the members of your cabinet as soon as possible under the conditions that I have specified. All public offices, the army, and citizens shall furnish their utmost cooperation with your interim government so as to attain the high and holy goals of this Islamic revolution and to restore order and function to the affairs of the nation. I pray to God for the success of you and your interim government in this sensitive juncture of our nation's history. Ruhollah al-Musawi al-Khomeini."

Hope that helps.--Zereshk 00:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chosen translation

I propose this translation on the basis of former ones:

Ayatollah Khomeini appointed Bazargan as the prime minister of "The Provisional Revolutionary Government" on February 4 1979 According to his commandment:

"Based on the proposal of the Revolutionary Council and in accordance with the canonical and legal rights which originated from the vote of overwhelming majority of Iranian nation for leadership of the movement which has been represented in the vast gatherings and wide and numerous demonstrations across Iran and by virtue of my trust on your firm belief in the holy tenets of Islam and my knowledge of your precedent in Islamic and national struggles, I appoint you the authority to establish the interim government without consideration of any affiliation to any parties or dependence on any factional groups, for formation of temporary government to arrange organizing of country affairs and especially perform a referendum and refer to public vote of nation about turning the country into Islamic republic and formation of "The Council of the Founders" from the representatives of people to approve of constitution of new regime and to hold elections of representatives of parliament of nation on the basis of the new constitution. It is necessary that you appoint and introduce the members of the temporary government as soon as possible in concordance with the conditions I have clarified. All public offices, the army, and citizens shall furnish their utmost cooperation with your interim government so as to attain the high and holy goals of this Islamic revolution and to restore order and function to the affairs of the nation. I pray to God for the success of you and your interim government at this sensitive juncture of our nation's history.’’ Ruhollah Al-Musavi al-Khomeini ,[1]."

I like Zereshk's translation much better. I did mine in a hurry. --alidoostzadeh 03:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll leave it up to the authors of the article to sift thru an optimal translation. However, I'd like to mention that whichever one u pick:
  • It should be "interim govt" not "temp govt". Interim is the exact proper translation.
  • Words like "because" should never be used in official text.
mer30.--Zereshk 06:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] iranian democracy

89.241.124.201 04:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC) "It says in the first para that Iran post-Revolution was a "theocratic democracy". Democracy? Yes, Iran runs elections. But is it a democracy? NO. Most of the most important position are appointed by the Supreme Leader, who is unelected. Should this be changed?"

I can tell some people here are very displeased at the presence of a powerful and religious, or faith based country such as iran and therefore vehemently attack it, especially it's democracy.

I think everyone here will agree that the UK is a democracy, at least to a certain extent. The supreme leader iactually Italic textis elected by the supreme council. Just like in Britain, people elect the party but not the Prime Minister. The Supreme Council could be seen as the House of Lords in Britain, which is not elected by the people but apppointed by the also non-elected Prime Minister. In Iran, the supreme council is created by another council appointing candidates and then parliamentary elections of who should hold the positions (i think it is 7 members). The president is elected by the people. Th eparliament also the same. Where in the UK there is a first past the post system (winner takes all) in iran they actualy use a PR system (proportional representation i.e. an election system where the number of seats won are proportional to the number of votes gained).

Also, the supreme leader could be seen as the queen in the UK. Every single legislation, law, policy etc to be passed must be signed by the queen, i think the process is called Royal Concession, or something like that. In this case, you have the supreme leader signing everything. Just like in the UK, traditionally, but not constitutionally, the queen has to agree to signing, but could refuse in protest. This is same with with the iranian supreme leader. He is traditionally supposed to agree because the very fact that the legislation has reached him means all parties concerned have agreed, but could refuse to do so in protest if this document was forced through parliament because the party that did so had a majority.

I believe all houses, councils and the parliament are much more democratic and share democratic features than that of the UK.

Parliament; in the UK, the seats are determined by first past the post, which is not a very fair system. The iranian parliament is a proportionally represented.

councils; in this case, i will use the Hose of Lords as an example. In the UK to this day there are hereditary peers existant even though a legislation was passed to abolish them a very long time. The members/peers are appointed by the PM rather than an independent commision. They are guaranteed a lifetime position. Unelected. The councils in iran are predominantly elected by parliament, some are elected by the supreme council. Not appointed by a single person, or gained seats because they happened to be a son of a peer.

supreme leader/queen; in the UK, the leader of the monarch is hereditary because it runs through a family, in iran he is elected by a supreme council.

president/PM: IN the UK, people elect a party, and the party elects the PM. In iran the people get to elect for both a party and who should lead it i.e. president.

party systems: The UK is a one party system concerning government (no coalition, only one party controls the government. Lord Hailsham described this system to be 'an elected dictatorship'.), a two party system concerning parliament (labour and conservatives form the opposition and governmental forces, dominate parliament) and a three party system concerning elections (labours, conservatives and liberal democrats are the three main parties. All other parties i.e. small parties, arediscriminated against by the first past the post system and are given no chance to excell through the ranks or a chance to grow.) Moving on to iran, this country is a MULTI-PARTY system with coalition governments and parliaments as well as councils based on independent persons and appointed on basis of wisdom and knowledge rather than political affiliation i.e. the supreme council is independent and neutral and so is the supreme leader.

As far as my analysis shows, iran is more democratic than you think, certainly more than the UK. If iran is not democratic, then the UK would look like a police state, or truly an 'elected dictatorship'.

[edit] Oppositions groups and organizations:POV check

I wrote the most notable groups which I known on the basis of my information. Please check whether it's POV or not and write your idea here. --Sa.vakilian 18:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where to put "Ayatollah Khomeini's commandment for Bazargan"

The commandement is 13 lines long and simply says Bazargan should be premier. It is so long, I think we should leave part of it in the The Provisional Revolutionary Government section, (for example):

"Based on the proposal of the Revolutionary Council and in accordance with the canonical and legal rights which originated from the vote of overwhelming majority of Iranian nation for leadership of the movement ... I appoint you the authority to establish the interim government ..."

and put the full text in the quotation section at the end of article.

--Leroy65X 17:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

We translated it because of its importance. It shows dome important notes about the legitimacy of new government, its duties, its characteristics, etc. I disagree with your proposal because it doesn't represent these points. Furthermore apparently there isn't any English site or book which translate it completely. In my viewpoint it has a key position and even we can put your proposal in Iranian revolution#Khomeini returns and the monarchy falls--Sa.vakilian 03:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This commandment shows how Mr. Khomeini thinks in democratic manner. " ... with the canonical and legal rights which originated from the vote of overwhelming majority of Iranian nation ...". It says that the vote of the people plays a majore role in Islamic state. Sa.vakilian translates the term "Arabic: شرعی‎" as "canonical". Anything which is "Arabic: شرعی‎", it is in fact based on Sharia. Therefore Mr. Khomeini beleives that the vote of the people is the basis for a state to be Islamic, otherwise it is not Islamic! As this is a controversial subject among Islamic scholars so I think the commandment should be highlighted. Farhoudk 09:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
umm, interesting ... though I suspect you can find plenty of quotes by Khomeini contradicting the idea that the support of the majority is necessary for the state to be Islamic.
... But what do you think of my question? should we put the whole commandment quote at the end of the article in the Quotations section? --Leroy65X 15:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The Iranian conservative parties from one side and Iranian secular parties from the other side try to show that Mr Khomeini does not beleive the role of the people in Islamic state. They have different ideological backgrounds but regarding this point they have surprisingly the same idea. The conservative parties: since they are trying to confront reformists. The secular parties: since they are trying to show that they are liberal democrates. I think Mr Khomeini was the first one who introduced the vote of people as a criteria to find out that a state is Islamic or not. And I can show you plenty of quotes by him to justify this idea. Best. Farhoudk 20:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the right of translation belongs to me, Zereshk and Ali, thus it doesnn't violate copyright rule.--Sa.vakilian 10:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Sa.vakilian, would you agree to replacing canonical with shariah, or at least putting sharia in parentheses next to canonical?
" ... with the canonical (sharia) and legal rights which originated from the vote of overwhelming majority of Iranian nation ... "
More and more english-speakers know what sharia law is these days, and there is quite a difference between Islamic sharia and catholic canon law (canon law in christianity just covers church matters not public law). --Leroy65X 15:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree with you and you wanted to add some comma. --Sa.vakilian 17:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The translation needed some gramatical changes. see: [3] --Leroy65X 23:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks a lot.--Sa.vakilian 03:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

But "Arabic: شرعی‎" does not mean sharia. It means "based on Arabic: شرع‎" or "based on sharia" or "sharia based" or "sharia related". In fact "sharia" (Arabic: شریعة‎) is noun but "Arabic: شرعی‎" is adjective. Farhoudk 05:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV:Referendum of 12 Farvardin

This sentence is not appropriate:

"while other groups were misled by Khomeinist statements giving "a democratic interpretion of the future Islamic Republic."

What does other groups means? Does it mean all other group or some of them? What does "Khomeinist" means?

Keddie actually said IRP and I will use that instead. "Khomeinists" are the cores supporters of Khomeini who believed in velayat-e faqih. --Leroy65X 20:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Using "misled" is "Keddie"'s judgment and some other like Lewis or Wright may have different POV. In fact there is an endeavor in Islamic republic to bind Islam and democracy. It's not liberal democracy but there is elections almost every years and about 60% of Iranians participates in it.--Sa.vakilian 03:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

That non-Khomeinists were misled is not just Keddie's judgement but the judgement of many observers, scholars, historians. See for example http://gemsofislamism.tripod.com/khomeini_promises_kept.html#Islamic_Clerics (that website is anti-khomeini, but the sources it quotes are not.) --Leroy65X 17:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I know but there is 2 problem. The sentence is unclear as I told and there's another POV that its natural when you fulfill an election in religious society more religious persons and ideas gain victory.--Sa.vakilian 18:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
On they other hand Iran's leaders believe in Islamic Republic as an elected and popular government. Khamenei repeatedly (and I believe honestly) remind that people can choose their representatives in different situation and even leadership is based on public election. There may be different POV about democracy. Somebody expects liberal democracy and somebody else represents Islamic one. The first one believes that he/she misled and the second one believes that he/she fulfills his/her promises. --Sa.vakilian 08:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Democracy has a well-defined meaning in political philosophy. There is simply no such thing as "Islamic Democracy". There is not a single occurance, as far as I know, of a scholarly article, book, or established theory, describing the basis for this ill-defined term. Tell me one person using this term which is not within the power circle of the Islamic Republic. "Elections" by themselves are not a measure of democracy. The USSR, Saddam Hussein, Parviz Musharraf, China's people's republic, and the so called "Democratic" republic of (east) Germany, all hold/held elections. None of them are/were in the least bit democratic, however. Shervink 14:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)shervink

[edit] POV:Hostage Crisis

There were some reasonable justifications for this event. When Shah went to U.S. revolutionaries remind Operation Ajax. They feared that U.S. would want to return Shah to power. --Sa.vakilian 03:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, we should but something in about operation ajax. I think that analogy is strained because the 1979 revolution was far more powerful (and especially more anti-Shah) than Mossadegh's movement, but yes we should put something in. --Leroy65X 18:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
They hated and were frightened because of U.S. policies.--Sa.vakilian 18:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I added operation ajax. --Leroy65X 23:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] We need to clean up the article

This is a message from Khoikhoi to me

I don't think the quote is long at all, but that's just my opinion. I disagree that there should be a separate section in the article just for quotes. They should be moved to Wikiquote instead. Also, I found Iranian Revolution very hard to read due to the POV, cleanup, unreferenced, and expand tags in almost every section. What happened? Khoikhoi 06:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Finding no one who agrees with me that the quote is too long I will stop complaining about its length and work to resolve complaints about POV and cleanup. --Leroy65X


[edit] Why so many footnotes?

As of Feb 24 2007 there were over 200. I probably put the majority of them there so I should explain: The Iran Revolution is a highly contentious subject and so I wanted to give anyone who wants a chance to check the facts of what I've put in. --Leroy65X 20:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

I propose we take off the POV tag at the beginning of the article and deal with POV tags in the sections one by one. I hope we have a consensus that much of the article is not POV. --Leroy65X 22:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the POV tag at the beginning of the article. I suggest to rearrange this article. --Sa.vakilian 03:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ideology of the revolution

Sa.vakilian: much of text taken verbatim from http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/320/324/324.2/hizballah/warn2/shiism.html ... means copyright problems. It must be rewritten or sooner or later it will be deleted.

I purpose writing something along the lines of:

the ideology was populist, nationalist, islamist. Khomeini was the leader. He took some of his ideas (talk about revolution, the oppressed, gharbzadeh) from Shariati and the Islamic left. The disagreement among revolutionaries over ideology was about velayat-e faqih. While everyone agreed on nationalism-populism-islam, many disagreed that a cleric/clerics should rule. Khomeini believed this was the Islamic way and felt compelled to avoid talking about velayat-e faqih before securing power, and to suppress those who opposed velayat-e faqih after he secured power. --Leroy65X 01:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I see it's against copyright rule. Therefor I put a comment there which says this part should be summarized. But what you propose doesn't represent what I meant by adding that verbatim. Unfortunately I don't have enough time in these days. Can you please summarize that part.--Sa.vakilian 02:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Still working on the Ideology of the revolution. There are a lot of issues to summarize, include, and weave together. --Leroy65X 23:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Revised Ideology of the revolution done. See if it is summarized and wikified to everyone's satisfaction. --Leroy65X 23:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rearrangement

These four sections have close relationship with each other:

  1. 5 1979: The Shah leaves and the Revolution succeeds
  2. 6 Khomeini takes power
  3. 7 Foundation of Islamic republic
  4. 8 Consolidation of power by Khomeini

In fact they weren't separate in practice. I suggest to merge " Khomeini takes power" in one of the other. --Sa.vakilian 03:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Chronologically they are close but revolutions are very eventful. It's not bad to have four sections covering the revolution over the year 1979 though I agree the section titles ought to be changed and the sections rewritten. --Leroy65X 15:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
What's your proposal?--Sa.vakilian 17:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
See if you like what I did. Here is my organziation now.
5 1979: The Shah leaves and the Revolution succeeds
5.1 Khomeini returns and the monarchy falls
6 The Islamic republic
6.1 Khomeini takes power
6.2 Revolutionary organizations
6.2.1 Revolutionary Council
6.2.2 The Provisional Revolutionary Government
6.2.3 The committees of Islamic revolution
6.2.4 Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps
6.2.5 Oppressed mobilization
6.2.6 Hezbollah
6.2.7 Jihad of construction
6.3 Establishment of Islamic republic government
6.3.1 Referendum of 12 Farvardin
6.3.2 Assembly of Experts of Constitution
6.4 Post-revolutionary Parties and movements
6.4.1 Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line
6.4.2 Islamic republic party
7 Consolidation of power by Khomeini
7.1 Hostage Crisis —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leroy65X (talk • contribs) 17:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
this is my proposal:
5 Victory of revolution and fall of monarchy 
5.1 The Shah leaves  
5.2 Khomeini returns and takes power
5.3 Revolutionary organization
5.3.1 Revolutionary Council 
5.3.2 The Provisional Revolutionary Government 
5.3.3 The committees of Islamic revolution 
5.3.4 Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps 
5.3.5 Oppressed mobilization 
5.3.6 Jihad of construction 
6 The Islamic republic 
6.1 Establishment of Islamic republic government 
6.1.1 Referendum of 12 Farvardin 
6.1.2 Assembly of Experts of Constitution 
6.2 Post-revolutionary Parties and movements 
6.2.1 Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line 
6.2.2 Islamic republic party 
6.2.3 Hezbollah 
6.2.4 Other parties 
6.3 Clashes among revolutionaries
6.3.1 New arrangement: Liberals, Leftist, Islamist
6.3.1 Hostage Crisis 
6.3.2 Resignation of Provisional Revolutionary Government
6.3.3 Challenge between President and Islamic republic party
6.3.3 Cultural revolution
6.3.4 Civil war and terror
6.3.5 The Interim government of the Islamic Republic
6.3.6 Consolidation of power by Khomeini

I can explain it later. --Sa.vakilian 19:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slight change in rearrangement

My hesitation is the difference between Revolutionary organizations and Post-revolutionary Parties and movements.
For example, according to my information the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps "was established by a decree issued by Khomeini on May 5 1979," but it is in Revolutionary organizations not Post-revolutionary Parties and movements.
The Islamic republic party was started "within a few days of the Khomeini's arrival in Iran," so that's before "Islamic Revolution's Victory Day" but it's in Post-revolutionary Parties and movements.
And Oppressed mobilization and Jihad of construction - weren't they started after victory day too? They should be in Post-revolutionary Parties and movements.
My solution: Merge Revolutionary organizations and Post-revolutionary Parties and movements.
Put them all under Revolutionary organizations and movements. --Leroy65X 18:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to merge all revolutionary and post revolutionary in one section: Revolutionary organizations and movements. I separated Establishment of Islamic republic government from New arrangement of revolutionaries What's your idea about this:
5 Victory of revolution and fall of monarchy 
5.1 The Shah leaves  
5.2 Khomeini returns and takes power
5.3 Revolutionary organizations and movements
5.3.1 Revolutionary Council 
5.3.2 The Provisional Revolutionary Government 
5.3.3 The committees of Islamic revolution 
5.3.4 Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps 
5.3.5 Oppressed mobilization 
5.3.6 Jihad of construction 
5.3.7 Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line 
5.3.8 Islamic republic party 
5.3.9 Other parties
6. Establishment of Islamic republic government 
6.1 Referendum of 12 Farvardin 
6.2 Assembly of Experts of Constitution / Constitution of Islamic republic
6.3 Establishment of first parliament and state
7. New arrangement of revolutionaries: Liberals/conservatives, Leftist, Islamist
7.1 Hostage Crisis 
7.2 Resignation of Provisional Revolutionary Government
7.3 Challenge between President and Islamic republic party
7.4 Cultural revolution
7.5 Civil war and terror
7.6 The Interim government of the Islamic Republic
7.7 Consolidation of power by Khomeini 
8. International position
8.1. Muslim World
 8.1.1 Islamic republican discourse vs Nationalist autocratic discourse
 8.1.2 Iran-Iraq war   
8.2. West block
 8.2.1 Iran-U.S. relation
 8.2.2 Iran-Israel relation
 8.3.3 Iran-Europe relation
8.3. East block
8.4. Iran-third world relation
9. Post-revolutionary situation during 1980s
 9.1. Political situation
 9.2. Social situation
 9.3. Economical situation
 9.1. Cultural and Religious situation

--Sa.vakilian 19:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm This article is getting long. I'd put 'Islamic republic party at 5.3.4 not 5.3.8 before Construction Jihad and Revolutionary Guards to keep it chronological (in order of when they were created). Otherwise I guess it's OK. --Leroy65X 01:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
OK. I accepted your suggestion. We can move some part of article to subarticles as we did in Hezbollah. But as I told before, we should complete the section then move some part of it to subarticle.--Sa.vakilian 05:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Slight change in rearrangement

Here are my differences:

The section New arrangement of revolutionaries: Liberals/conservatives, Leftist, Islamist sound too much like a euphemism, and the Opposition to the revolution has been eliminated. The story of the post-revolutionary years 1979, 1980, 1981, was one were the revolution was consolidated in the hands of Khomeini and the so-called "khomeinists" (Islamic republic party, hezbollah, republican guard, etc.) in the process repressing groups that were formerly part of the revolution -- the guerillas, national front, national democratic front, the muslim people's republican party, etc. These groups opposed their suppression and sometimes fought back. It's more than a "new arrangement". This happens in every revolution I suppose, we should spell it out.

This needn't be POV. We can explain that the groups were suppressed because "... khomeiniists believed their opposition to theocracy was against Islam."


Here's my other problem: Your outline has 14 categories and subcategories for Post-revolutionary impact section, were before there were 3.

9 Post-revolutionary impact
9.1 International
9.2 In Iran

I think the article is mutating into a History of Iran after 1979 article rather than an Iranian Revolution article. There should be something on what's happened after the revolution, but something brief because there already is a History of Iran after 1979 article. History of Islamic Republic of Iran

So here's my idea:

5 Victory of revolution and fall of monarchy 
5.1 The Shah leaves  
5.2 Khomeini returns and takes power
5.3 Revolutionary organizations and movements
5.3.1 Revolutionary Council 
5.3.2 The Provisional Revolutionary Government 
5.3.3 The committees of Islamic revolution 
5.3.4 Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps 
5.3.5 Oppressed mobilization 
5.3.6 Jihad of construction 
5.3.7 Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line 
5.3.8 Islamic republic party 
5.3.9 Other parties
6. Establishment of Islamic republic government 
6.1 Referendum of 12 Farvardin 
6.2 Assembly of Experts of Constitution / Constitution of Islamic republic
6.3 Establishment of first parliament and state
7. Consolidation of power and opposition 
7.1 Hostage Crisis 
7.2 Resignation of Provisional Revolutionary Government
7.3 Challenge between President and Islamic republic party
7.4 Cultural revolution
7.5 Civil war and terror
7.6 The Interim government of the Islamic Republic
7.7 Dissent and its suppression

And then put much of this text ....

8. International position
8.1. Muslim World
 8.1.1 Islamic republican discourse vs Nationalist autocratic discourse
 8.1.2 Iran-Iraq war   
8.2. West block
 8.2.1 Iran-U.S. relation
 8.2.2 Iran-Israel relation
 8.3.3 Iran-Europe relation
8.3. East block
8.4. Iran-third world relation
9. Post-revolutionary situation during 1980s
 9.1. Political situation
 9.2. Social situation
 9.3. Economical situation
 9.1. Cultural and Religious situation

... in : History of Islamic Republic of Iran. Salam, --Leroy65X 16:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I made that article:)) and I think we should cover from Jan 1978 to Dec 1981 completely. Of course there are separate articles for some of them like "Iran-U.S. relation" and we write it here in brief. We can merge them but we can't move them completely.
As I found you disagree with 7 and 7.7. and agree with others. in the case of 7.7. I disagree on "Dissent and its suppression". Because dissent has ended at that time and consolidation is correct. Also we can't say "Consolidation of power and opposition " because Banisadr was President. We can use "from Coalition to Consolidation" or something like this.Sa.vakilian(t-c)--16:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
When did dissent end? MEK was dissenting. Bani Sadr was dissenting. The suppression of dissent was a major part of the revolution. It has to be included. Here is my new idea:
5 Victory of revolution and fall of monarchy 
5.1 The Shah leaves  
5.2 Khomeini returns and takes power
5.3 Revolutionary organizations and movements
5.3.1 Revolutionary Council 
5.3.2 The Provisional Revolutionary Government 
5.3.3 The committees of Islamic revolution 
5.3.4 Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps 
5.3.5 Oppressed mobilization 
5.3.6 Jihad of construction 
5.3.7 Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line 
5.3.8 Islamic republic party 
5.3.9 Other parties
5.4 Dissenting revolutionary organizations and personalitiesw
5.4.1 Iran Freedom Movement
5.4.2 National Front
5.4.3 National Democratic Front
5.4.4 MEK
5.4.5 Ayatollah Shariatmadari
6. Establishment of Islamic republic government 
6.1 Referendum of 12 Farvardin 
6.2 Assembly of Experts of Constitution / Constitution of Islamic republic
6.3 Establishment of first parliament and state
7. Consolidation of power and opposition 
7.1 Hostage Crisis 
7.2 Resignation of Provisional Revolutionary Government
7.3 Challenge between President and Islamic republic party
7.4 Cultural revolution
7.5 Civil war and terror
7.6 The Interim government of the Islamic Republic
7.7 Dissent and its suppression  --Leroy65X 16:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continued debate on arrangement

It has been improved but there are some problems.
1- Dissent was after establishment of Islamic republic government not before it. Because dissent took place in winter 1359(February and March 1981) and then civil war took place during spring of that year.
Dissent took almost two years earlier during summer of 1979. For example in August 1979 41 newspapers and periodicals are prohibited. (Kayhan 20.8.78-21.8.78, quoted in Schirazi p.51) Many, if not all, of the dissenting organizations listed were in existance before Oppressed mobilization, Jihad of construction, and certainly Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line --Leroy65X 15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
But MEK and Freedom Movement of Iran were participating in Islamic republic parliment and Bani Sadr was the president. In fact "Terror and civil war" had two separate periods. In the first period some conflicts happened among new government and federalists(Kurds, Turkmans, ...) and anti Islamic groups (some liberals and communists) in 1979. Then other conflicts happened among Islamic republic party, Gourd of Islamic revolution ... and MEK, Freedom Movement and Bani Sadr. We can call the first one "conflicts with anti-Islamic republic movements" and the second one "Anti Velayat Faqih movements Sa.vakilian(t-c)--16:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we replace conflicts with anti-Islamic republic movements with suppression of secularist groups "conflicts" is not descriptive enough, there wasn't just a conflict there was a suppression. "anti-Islamic republic movements" has "anti-Islamic" in it. People read that and they think the National Democratic Front wanted to close down masjids. The "anti-Islamic republic movements" were against the islamic republic because they wanted a secular republic.
Now what else are we working on? this is getting complicated. :-) --Leroy65X 17:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
These were not just seculars but there were ethnic movements which wanted Federalist rights and clashes took place. I suggest "Early conflicts/clashes". It's NPOV and includes all of the conflicts of 1979.Sa.vakilian(t-c)--18:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
But it still covers over who won the fight. Suppression of secularist and federalist groups or Early suppression of opposition is better. -Leroy65X 18:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


2- I prefer to merge "Dissent and its suppression" into "Civil war and terror".
I hope you do not. Iran Freedom Movement and MEK placed a much bigger part and NF, NDF, IFM were not involved in terror --Leroy65X 15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you please explain more what do you like to write in "Dissent and its suppression" .Sa.vakilian(t-c)--18:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll make a new article about time line of revolution which will reduce our problem(En Sha Allah).Sa.vakilian(t-c)--06:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Similar to what is in here: [4]
Are you OK with these?
5.4 Dissenting revolutionary organizations 
5.4.1 Iran Freedom Movement
5.4.2 National Front
5.4.3 National Democratic Front
5.4.4 MEK
5.4.5 Muslim People's Republican Party --Leroy65X 18:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why do you put MEK in this part while it participated with Islamic revolution until 1980. In 1979 "Iran Freedom Movement" and "MEK" were beside revolutionaries not against them. Even they participated in elections in 1980. But In winter and spring of 1979 the most conflicts took place between militia of leftist,federalist,sectarianist on one hand and army,revolutionaries and government on the other hand. Even there were ethnic conflicts. But "National Democratic Front", "National Front" and some other secular parties just had some newspapers which had been banned in summer. I suggest not to divide this part to subsections, because then we have problem with put each one here or there. You'll find more information If you look at timeline. Excuse me but I think you've been confused. Sa.vakilian(t-c)--19:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
All those groups who eventually fell out with Khomeini and the IRP are similar even if some fell out in 1979 and some in 1981. They all opposed theocratic Velayat-e Faqih. And Khomeini and the IRP knew they opposed Velayat-e Faqih even if, for example, he put IFM's Bazargan in power as Prime Minister for a while.
They are important as part of the revolutionary history even if they weren't part of the victorious group.
I'm sure its late were you are. maybe we should take a break ---Leroy65X 19:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The article won't looks good if we put BaniSadr story before establishment of Islamic republic and also write MEK assassinated head of Judiciary system. I mean we can't write the events of 1981 and then return to 1979 and going forwards and backwards. I prefer to reduce ideological coherence to increase chronological one.Sa.vakilian(t-c)--02:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Its OK with me if we put a story on Bani Sadr after the the establishment of the Islamic Republic so long as we have stories on both the groups that won and the groups that lost (such as I listed above) in the history of the revolution.
Also, there is bound to be some contradictions in article chronology because the groups didn't all start and operate at the same time. For example, your arrangement of sections right now has a section on Muslim student Followers of the Imam's Line and the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps before Referendum of 12 Farvardin. Both organizations were started after the referendum. It's not in historical order but I doubt many readers will object.
I will be back monday. Salam alaika. --Leroy65X 15:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Committees

Sav.akilian I think this is wrong:

On February 12 the committees of Islamic revolution (also known as "komitehs" from the French comite) established in mosques. Khomeini put Ayatollah Mahdavi Kani in charge of the komiteh.[2]

There were committees in 1978.

The first "komitehs" (from the French comite), or committees, "sprang up everywhere" as autonomous organizations in late 1978. They mobilized people, organized strikes and demonstrations, and distributed scarce commodities. After February 12, many of 300,000 rifles and submachine guns seized from military arsenals[3] ended up with the komitehs who confiscated property and arrested those they believed to be counter-revolutionaries. In Tehran alone there were 1500 committees. Inevitably there was conflict between the komitehs and the other sources of authority, particularly the Provisional Government.[4] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leroy65X (talk • contribs) 19:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
You may right. I doubted. I'll try to find a reliable source.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 10:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
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