Talk:International humanitarian law

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Contents 1 Violations and punishment 2 Basic rules of IHL 3 IHL and Laws of War reconciliation 4 RfC? 5 Non-uniformed guerrillas and Protocol 1 6 Curtailment of declaration of war

[edit] Violations and punishment

I disagree with some information published under this heading

1) Regarding the definition of reprisals it should be added that it is forbidden to use reprisals against protected persons and objects.

2) Regarding whether a soldier is still entitled to POW status in case he violates IHL, I totally disagree with your interpretation of the law.

Additional Protocol I (Art. 43 and 44) makes it clear that all members of the armed forces are combatants and that all combatants upon capture are entitled to POW status and treatment. "While all combatants are obliged to comply with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, violations of these rules shall not deprive a combatant of his right to be a combatant or, if he falls into the power of an adverse Party, of his right to be a prisoner of war" (Additional Protocol I, Art. 44§2).

The notion of "unlawful combatant" does not exist in IHL (nor in LoW); it is a by-product of the so-called war against terrorism. person is either a combatant (if they fill all the criteria of the definition) or a civilian. There is nothing in between such as "unlawful combatants"

3) "Terrorist" do not exist under IHL; I mean that there is no definition as to what is terrorism and what is not. There is more than 20 international treaties about terrorism each providing its own definition of terrorism.

4) IHL makes it an obligation to prosecute war crimes "without any delay" (Additional Protocol I, Art. 80§1, see also Geneva Convention III, Art. 129) and not only at the end of hostilities. Ppolar 14:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Basic rules of IHL

num 4 is just wrong. If A enemy civilian merchant ship is carrying war supplies for an enemy, then it is a civilian objects on the one hand, and military objectives on the other. So Its back to the drawing board with that one.Philip Baird Shearer 01:58, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is simply an overview of an interpretation of the IHL corpus as a whole. It is not meant to detail exceptions such as the one you described. GuloGuloGulo 08:51, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

The point of that example is that as "International Humanitarian Law" IHL does not even begin to make qualify its introductory section to make allowances for such things. Perhaps you should rewrite it so that it does if you think they are the same thing. In the Falklands War the cargo ship MV Atlantic Conveyor was carrying British war supplies and was hit by an air launched Exocet with civilians sailors on board. No one would have suggested after the conflict that as it was private property that the Argentinian pilot who launched the missile was a war criminal which the current "overview 4" suggests that he was. If he had hit the liner Canberra, which was carrying troops it would have lead to a large loss of life of civilians as well at troops, but it would not have been a war crime either although she was a civilian ship with civilians on board. Philip Baird Shearer 11:37, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As you can see, the overview is attributed. The analysis comes from a reputable legal adviser and was found on the IHLRI, "based at the Program on Humanitarian Policy and Conflict Research (HPCR) at the Harvard School of Public Health." #4 says civilian people and objects can't be targeted. In the examples you provided the objects are obviously military in nature, therefore legitimate targets. It doesn't need the qualification you suggest, at least not in the overview. GuloGuloGulo 18:54, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

But the ships contained civilians and they were civilian ships. So now it is not ALL civilian people and objects, can't be targeted it is just some of them. This is starting to get complicated. I'm not sure, but it is likely that these civilian ships refulled at the Ascension Island. The civilian tanker which delivered the oil there might have been targeted and sunk, in which case would the Argetinian crew have commited a war crime? What is the limit in the chain? Trouble is as soon as one admits that some civilans and property are legitimate targets, one has to decide where to stop, the devil is in the detail, which is what the LoW about. Philip Baird Shearer 23:16, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

LEt's just go back to definitions, shall we!!! IHL provides that

"military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage" (see 1977 Additional Protocol I, Art. 52§2)

AND

"Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2" ( Additional Protocol I, Art. 52§1)

These two definitions are considered part of customary law.

Therefore, a civilian merchant ship which transports military equipment definitely falls into the definition of "military objective" and can be the object of an attack although this attack might cause damage to the civilians on board the ship. The question whether the civilians on board the ship are still protected depends on the interpretation given to the following rule:

"Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities." (Additional Protocol I, Art. 51§3)

If these civilians are considered to take DIRECT part to hostilities, then they can be directly attacked; if not, they will be considered as collateral damage provided the principle of proportionality is respected.Ppolar 14:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IHL and Laws of War reconciliation

I've gotten comments that my merge of laws of war into IHL was inappropriate. Specifically, that "there is overlap in the subjects but they are not the same thing. The Laws of War have a long and complex history and cover more than the modern modern concept of IHL." It is, or at least was, my understanding that IHL is the modern equivalent of Laws of War; that they are basically the same thing, that International Humanitarian Law is just a neologism. I'd like to know specifically what the differences are, and suggestions on how best to differentiate in the articles. GuloGuloGulo 08:51, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

English speaking countries used to have "Ministry of War Now" they have "Ministries of Defense". This is not a neologism it is an euphemism. But I do not think that "International Humanitarian Law" (IHL) and "Laws of War" (LoW) are either a neologism or a euphemism because they are different things.

There is an overlap between the LoW and IHL but they are not the same thing in all cases. For example a person can commit genocide without going to war to do it. But the laws on Mercenaries has little to do with IHL {although there is a definition in the Geneva Conventions additional Protocol I (1977)} Philip Baird Shearer 11:37, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Genocide and mercenaries are both covered under the corpus, which includes the Geneva conventions. I think the LoW are fully contained within IHL. That IHL is LoW, but also covers peacetime human rights violations. GuloGuloGulo 19:04, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

GGG, why do you feel it appropriate to encompass more than a century of written law, and millennia of military tradition and custom into the definition put forth by an organization found in 2002? Going to their website, I see that the most basic error in trying to indicate Lws of War=IHL is that they base their concepts on the Geneva Conventions (some of which are not universally ratified even by major powers) with only a peripheral glance at the Hague Conventions, which define issues of the definitions of combatants and civilians, privileged and unprivileged belligerency, and the conduct of warfare. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 20:26, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

so GGG now you do not think "IHL is the modern equivalent of Laws of War" you think it is a super set of LoW. That is a big change in just 24 hours. To quote Cromwell "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." Philip Baird Shearer 23:16, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what constitutes a "peripheral glance" to the Hague Conventions. It is very possible that I am mistaken and I'm completely open to differentiating between the two. I just have yet to see a good explanation of their differences. GuloGuloGulo 08:43, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Some kind of merger seems appropriate to me. If IHL and LoW are "not the same thing," someone who contends that needs to fix the introductory paragraph of this article, which states that IHL is "also known as the law of war," and defines IHL in such a way that it is very difficult to distinguish the two. IHL is a little broader than LoW, but the overlap is so extensive that it would seem to make sense to bring the LoW article into this one, or merge them both into a "law of armed conflict" article, since "armed conflict" is broader than "war." PubliusFL 19:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC?

I came here from RfC. Does this article still have a dispute? Maurreen 05:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There hasn't been any recent activity here, so I suppose the dispute isn't very active. The dispute arose mainly from redirecting already existing redirects such as Law of war here under the contention that IHL is a neologism for the terms Law of war, Laws of land conflict, etc., while other (including myself) pointed out how these concepts have overlap, but are not the same thing. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 18:04, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, I'll remove the listing. Maurreen 05:02, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Non-uniformed guerrillas and Protocol 1

In the first sentence of the section "Non-uniformed guerrillas and Protocol 1", I think something is missing (gramatically). I'm having trouble understanding. Are points a-d the criteria for determining if a person has lawful combatant status? Lex 17:28, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Curtailment of declaration of war

The article states "the UN charter (1945) Art 2, and some other Arts in the charter, curtails the right of member states to declare war..." Article 2 of the UN Charter deals with the responsibilities of UN members to seek peaceful means for the solution of international disputes and the avoidance of the threat or use of force against any state. But Article 2 does not prevent the use of force in cases of breaches of the peace and acts of aggression as indicated in Chapter 7 and member nations can be required to assist the Security Council in its efforts to restore peaceful conditions. The proper reading seems to be that member nations defer to the Security Council when hostile circumstances arise but this does not prevent a member from acting in self-defense while the Security Council is considering matters. There is nothing in Article 2 or Chapter 7 that would prevent a Security Council declaration concerning the use of force. --Jbergquist 07:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)