Talk:International Whaling Commission

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Contents 1 Norway 2 Details about countries 3 Allegation of vote buying 4 RMS 5 Adding countries to Notes section 6 Allegations of Japan try to force a whaling industry 7 Reply to Andrew Re vote buying 8 Yearly IWC meetings 9 Allegation of politicising science

[edit] Norway

"Since 1986 only Norway, Iceland and especially Japan have been issued with permits, with Japan being the sole permit holder since 1995 as part of their 16-year programme. Norway lodged a protest to the zero catch limits in 1992 and is not bound by them."

Could someone expand on Norway's legal objection? It sounds like if you protest then you are not bound by the ban and it's OK to whale as far as the IWC is concerned, which doesn't sound like much of a ban. —Tokek 17:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's correct and its just the way things are with international agreements. For example the United States hasn't signed the Kyoto Agreement and so it can pollute like billy-o if it wants. Basically the same deal with Norway. Pcb21| Pete 19:26, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Details about countries

Would a table of members, describing details such as when they joined the commission, whether they used to or currently hunt whales, and if they are landlocked (and perhaps their overall voting stance), be useful? Andjam 04:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Allegation of vote buying

It appear that only allegation which get publicity is the one which put unfavourable light on pro-whaling side. I will change the section to "Allegation of Politics". I will also add issues which get more prominence in prowhaling countries such as Japan. Vapour

Changed the title to "Politics". What U.S. did isn't allegation. I might later add Revised Management Scheme section, where pro whaling side is accusing anti whaling side of filbustering the scheme. Moreover, (allegedlly, of course) it was anti whaling side which initially inflated their vote by lobbying for countries such as Switzland (a land locked countries) to join IWC. IWC's purpose is to make whaling sustainable. To be a member of IWC while being against whaling on principle is just plain politics. Oh well, that what pro side claim, anyway. Vapour

Allegations link removed - Why? - I noticed there was a broken link at the bottom of this page "Greenpeace allegations of vote buying". This link had been there for many months. I simply fixed it so it went to an updated and working URL. Now Sammytheseal has deleted the link. Offering the explanation that the claims are "unproven". I think the Greenpeace page (which I wrote) does a very good job of substantiating these allegations. Please read the page (and briefing it links to), and judge for self.

Knowing about Japan's vote buying is vital to understanding what is happening with the IWC at this time. Therefore, the link should go back in. However, this page already contains some quotes concerning vote buying, but in a bit of a mish mash. Maybe a separate section would be warranted to sort it out, but since I am new I'm reluctant to create one on my own.

Furthermore, these sentences in the current version are not quite accurate:

Greenpeace alleges that Japan's aid activities and these countries voting patterns are correlated. The fact that these poor countries, many of which have no history of whaling either culturally or commercially, are prepared to pay IWC membership and send delegates is assumed to be linked to aid from Japan.

Greenpeace's allegations are based on public statements of government officials and an analysis of voting patterns compared to aid received - not assumptions. I will correct the second sentence accordingly.

Apologies for my wordiness on the discussion page. I am new here and want to make my thinking clear. Advice welcome. Andrew-Galvanize-Davies

[edit] RMS

I shifted RMS to Politics section simply because the content is about politics of RMS rather than what RMS is. I do not object to RMS being revived. Just that this time it should be about what RMS is. Vapour

[edit] Adding countries to Notes section

Anyone care to add the four new member countries to the notes section? could´nt figure out how to ( it´s late :) SammytheSeal 21:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allegations of Japan try to force a whaling industry

Is it wise to add the allegations that whale meat is no longer particularly popular in Japan and even the scientific whaling meat is supposedly difficult to sell requiring various measures such as giving it away for free etc to try and entice customers and keeping whaling alive or is this best left for other articles? Nil Einne 22:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I would say no, Figures from whale meat stock movements show that whale meat shipped in July 2006 was 1723 tonnes, hardly a small amount... If that continued, demand would outstrip supply ..

Here are some partial figures for 2006 : ( all figures in Tonnes )

March - Stockpile size at previous month end 2898 -Incoming stock 539- Outgoing stock 827- Stockpile size at current month end 3610

April - 3610......2920......561.....5969

May - 5969.......129......357.....5741

June - 5741.......163......414.....5490

July - 5490.......905.....1723.....4672

Best I can do without knowing how to insert a table - hope it´s legible ;) SammytheSeal 23:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Andrew Re vote buying

Hi Andrew,

Firstly, it would be great if you can add at the end such as I´m doing now, makes a discussion / thread easier to follow - if you need any help, just ask on my talk page.

Regarding the removal of the link, it´s been on my list of things to do for a while now, and seeing it come up on my watchlist reminded me. I´m not against the link per se, but I believe it would be more relevant in either the whaling article and or whaling in Japan or even the Greenpeace article ( if there is a consensus otherwise then fair enough ). The article itself says that the accusations are unproven - and as such, presents a POV ( Greenpeace´s )

By all means, rewrite the article / section to include the accusations with independant links and cites ... I think you´ll find that other editors may very well include the ICR / Japanese viewpoint to counterpoint it and or edit it ... but be my guest .. welcome to the wonderful world of Wikipedia ;) SammytheSeal 15:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The link has been restored as it discusses the single most profound recent IWC development, i.e. pro-whalers' achieving a simple majority. The allegation, properly described as such, is in itself not POV in that it is discussed widely and impacts the IWC. Although the source is POV (its their business to be) the ref should stand to be replaced by a better one, not simply deleted. As this impacts IWC directly, this article is the best place for it. István 17:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Istivan,

so now it´s linked to twice in the article? ( see 32 ) you´ll notice I did not delete Andrew´s second linking to the page as referenced in the article. Fair enough, you won´t mind then If I restore / broaden /add discussion of the 1990´s Forbes article discussion on alleged Greenpeace/WWF/NGO Vote buying/ manipulation in the lead up to the moratorium in the 80´s? ( see GP talk page - It´s been on my to do list for ages anyway )

It would be relevant in view of allegations and certainly profound in view of how the moratorium was arrived at in the first place ( Alleged manipulation of sovereign states by GP, WWF and other NGO´s) I´ll quite happily broaden the article, though to be honest, the article is already a mess, too long by far .. SammytheSeal 18:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Sammy,

Scanning the (current) news coverage, one sees almost uniform reference to this allegation, per se (in fact its hard to write an IWC story today without mentioning it) yet nothing as in-depth as the current link provides. It's obvious that there is not only aid for votes but also a quite open recruitment drive by both sides, ostensibly to gain votes, but this too is unproven (open admission would be the only "proof" standard). re: the 1980s allegations; of course I dont mind if you put that in; I would only suggest it is more suited to a "background-" or "history of IWC" section/article.

I agree with your observation that the article is getting too long and unruly. Because it attempts to summarise each annual meeting, it will only grow in complexity. I agree that this article should be simplified to inform the casual browser of "what is the IWC" and provide a link to the more in-depth summaries of its history and each annual meeting (which will eventually become "history" material)István 14:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Istvan,

One reason possibly why there is "uniform reference" to the allegations is good PR - some NGO´s these days have some very slick PR and media folk - there´s also a tendency I´ve noticed for PR handouts being reproduced practicaly word for word by many journalists - ( google "whaling" in Google news and click on sort by date to see what I mean - some footwork can usually track down the source ;) ) However, thats neither here nor there at the moment - I intend to figure out how to set up a page and will remove large swathes from the article, placing the content in their own page(s) .... the IWC politics and vote buying and who did what to who etc can then be lumped together, I´ll get onto it asap ;) SammytheSeal 14:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Sammy,

I think the only universally accepted "proof" of such allegations would be open admission which, I was suprised to find, exists here [1]. Be careful when re-arranging the content to avoid creating a POV Fork. IMHO, I would suggest the main article IWC, sub articles History of the IWC, IWC meeting in 2006, IWC meeting in 2007 etc. linked by a cat:IWC annual meetings. Its probably the best structure to handle recent and near-future developments now before the fur starts flying again. István 15:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Istvan,

I´ve removed the doubled text and added links for each year to the IWC website reports for the respective years - More to follow ;) RE: the guardian link, Komatsu says that he ( personally?) sees nothing wrong - the Japanese government denies it - a crucial point—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SammytheSeal (talk • contribs) 21:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Hi Sammy,

The section looks much better now with the table, great work! Perhaps a line or two in summary could be added back to inform the casual reader of the current state of play on the IWC. Ive noticed the individual meeting articles could do with an Infobox-style template - I'll try my hand at that. Yes, it is indeed a crucial point that the Japanese Government denies buying IWC votes. They have made these denials thousands of times, and increasingly over the last few years - another crucial point. István 15:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yearly IWC meetings

I´d like to propose that we split off the yearly meetings onto a separate page - only leaving a brief description and link -it would go a long way towards cleaning up the article...opinions? I´m willing to attempt it anyway. SammytheSeal 19:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree and have begun to do so. Thus far, Ive only created the pages, brought over some text, linked sections to the daughter articles, etc. Next steps: 1. Put the daughter articles into order (for expansion) and 2. Summarise the relevant sections in the main IWC article. István 15:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allegation of politicising science

Excuse me, new to this discussion but the following paragraph could be read to indicate that Canada is not a whaling country, when in fact it has had a long term aboriginal subsistence hunt. Maybe the first line 'Non Whaling nations have expressed similar sentiments', should be removed or anoither example used.

Non-whaling nations have expressed similar sentiments. Canada withdrew from the IWC after the vote to impose the moratorium, claiming that "[t]he ban was inconsistent with measures that had just been adopted by the IWC that were designed to allow harvests of stocks at safe levels."

Where be the truth 11:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)