Talk:International Typographic Style

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[edit] Akzidenz as model for Helvetica and Univers

Hi, yes, a typeface can be used as a model for another. Witness: Adrian Frutiger's use of Paul Rennner's Futura as a model for his own typeface Avenir; Carol Twombly's examination of Trajanus in creating Trajan; or, Zuzana Licko's use of Baskerville's type as a model for her own Mrs. Eaves face. I am uncomfortable with your use as "a driving force." This is an abstract euphimism, not particularly encylopedic. Could you be comfortable with "served as an inspiration"?

What also concerns me is your lumping Univers and Helvetica together as having the same "driving force." They come of extremely different briefs. Helvatica actively used Akzidenz Grotesk as a physical model, the intent being to make it more regular, and only a single width was originally produced by Hoffman and Miedinger. Univers take much more minimal inspiration from the actual physical form of Akzidenz Gotesk, Frutger's states goals were different: created a large unified realist sans-serif typeface that could be set cross culturally on various systems. His brief was more ambitious and of a far greater scope than updating Akzidenz Grotesk. CApitol3 18:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I said a style (that is, the Swiss Style) can't be used as a model for a typeface, but that it can be the "driving force" for one. It is my understanding that both typefaces were created at least partly because the designers involved in the movement needed more/better sans-serif typefaces. Recury 18:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I stated the typestyle Akzidenz Grotesk (not the Swiss style) served as a model for Helvetica. CApitol3 19:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that's true but this is the article on the Swiss Style of design not Akzidenz or Helvetica. Do you agree that the Swiss Style was a "driving force" behind the creation of those typefaces? I'm open to changing the wording if you are still uncomfortable with it, but I think it's an important point. Recury 19:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Might be safest to just delete this part. I do not believe the Swiss style was the driving force behind the creation of Helvetica, or Univers. I believe their use became a hallmark of the swiss style. I do not think that Hoffman or Miedinger were fired up about the Swiss style, I think their foundry believed that a more refined less quirky version of Akzidenz Grotesk would sell. Adrian Frutiger of the three was more graphic design oriented and of the three (Hoffman, Miedinger, Frutiger) was the most aware of the graphic movement taking place. He too envisioned a clearer, more regular and unfied typeface than Akzidenz Grotesk, but his was a quantum link beyond cleaning up an existing face. Frutiger clearly envisioned a unified family, with a consistent ethos whether it was light ultra condensded (Univers 49) or black ultra extended (Univers 83). And, beyond that he foresaw designers and typesetters in Canada, the U.S. Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia all having the Univers typeface available to them regardless of what setting system their country tended towards. Type designers are quite different from graphic designers, and from each other. I've done graphic work for Matthew Carter and had the opportunity to get to know him a bit. I find his perspective really great, I suppose it is the other side of the same coin, but it surprised me how differnetly he views type from me an end-user. It's this, that makes me believe the style did not wag the tail. BTW nice to see an illustration for the Müller-Brockman article. CApitol3 20:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll delete it at least for now. A claim like that should really have a source or two anyway. If I find anything, I'll let you know. Recury 20:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ITS or Swiss Style?

When I first made this, it seemed like International Typographic Style was the more common name for it, but now that I have done more research, it seems like Swiss Style is more often used. I'm considering moving the article to Swiss Style, which is now a redirect to ITS. Which name is more common in your experience? Recury 20:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I sort of had the opposite experience of your observation: I had only heard of Swiss Style, and then discoverd your article, did a google search and found, yes, some use ITS. I wonder if it might be regional? I live in New England with piles of Yale-educated and even a fair number of Kuntsgwebeschule-educated designers and they tend to say Swiss Style. Hmmm. CApitol3 22:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)