Talk:Intercontinental Cup (football)

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Enjoy. (Some small English corrections still due.) elpincha 07:49, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Redirect at Intercontinental Cup 2 European/South American Cup or Intercontinental Cup? 3 2005 4 Anon's comments 5 Club logos removal

[edit] Redirect at Intercontinental Cup

There are close to 100 wikis that point at Intercontinental Cup, all regarding the football (soccer) competition. Intercontinental Cup should point here until most -- if not all -- of those wikis are fixed. --DR31 (talk) 17:54, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] European/South American Cup or Intercontinental Cup?

What's the most common name of this tournament?

European/South American Cup or Intercontinental Cup?

I think Intercontinental Cup is pretty much common than the European/South American Cup.

Should we change the article's name?

To what? The name "Intercontinental Cup" isn't the exclusive preserve of football. For instance, cricket has an "Intercontinental Cup" that is still a continuing competition. This page could be moved to "Intercontinental Cup (football)" or "Intercontinental Cup (soccer)" fairly easily though, jguk 06:35, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

This really ought to be moved to Intercontinental Cup (football) or something similar. It was never known as the European/South American Cup during its lifetime - this seems to be revisionism on the part of UEFA. Does anybody know definitively what its name was, before it became the Toyota Cup? sjorford (?!) 08:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Before Toyota Cup, it was called Intercontinental Club Championship, or simply Intercontinental Cup. It was never referred as European/South American Cup, despite only these two continents took part on it. FTota

I know this as the world cup for teams. That's what we call it. It is the hifgest price any team can win, isn't it? Migdejong 17:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2005

It seams that the Intercontinental Cup is not dead. For the 2005 Cup, the winner of the South American Recopa Boca Juniors would play the winner of the European Super Cup Liverpool F.C.. [1], [2]. We'll see Mariano(t/c) 09:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

That information is really dated now, and there is no mention whatsoever to it at fifa.com, conmebol.com or uefa.com. girco 02:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The text say something about "World Club Championship". It's wrong. It can not be called "World Club Championship". It's not fair with clubs from Concacaf, OFC, CFA and AFC.

Do you all think that São Paulo should be considered 2005's Intercontinental Champion? From 2005 on the tournament is supposed to be really replaced by World Club Championship. Otherwise, we should consider Corinthians champions in 200 also. FTota 18:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely not, its a completely different cup, different format and different wikipage. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 18:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

But, look, the FIFA WCW replaced Intercontinental Cup. So, Sao Paulo FC is now know as three times world champion. Where would be the best place to have all the statistics regarding Intercontinental Cup, Toyota Cup and FIFA WCW? Remember, the format has already changed once, when they started the single match decision in Japan. It's not so simple as you wrote. FTota 20:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but the WCW is a different competition. It is not only the format, is the name, the sponsor and the organizer. While the European/SA Cup was organized by Conmebol and UEFA, this one is by FIFA. There are even talks of redoing the European/SA Cup between the winners of the Recopa Sudamericana and the European Supercup. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 21:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but the sponsor is the same. And the most important point is that the meaning is the same. Even FIFA considers the European/SA as World Champions, even if it wasn't organized by them. I think it should exists a page with the statistics regarding both European/SA and FIFA WCW. And if the European/SA continues existing, with the winners of Recopa Sudamericana and European Supercup, it shouldn't be considered the same competition. What do you think? FTota 13:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

So what the sponsor is the same?!?!? If two soccer teams have the same sponsor then they are the same? Is the Copa Toyota Libertadores then a subsidiary of this one? FIFA did NOT recognize the champion of the E/SA cup as World Champion. As a matter of fact, they were saying quite the opposite. This new cup has been created to eliminate this problem. Furthermore, please tell me why were both cups played in 2000 if they were one and the same? Why was the cup slated to be played (although later scrapped) in 2002? Why was the original idea to play it every 2 years?. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 16:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that the European/South American Cup will (probably) continue to be played, but with a different meaning. Therefore, any statistics regarding the best club team in the world should not be here. perhaps it would be wiser to have that in the FIFA WCW article; having it here would lead not only to confusion but to equivocated information. Mariano(t/c) 13:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

See my comment above. FIFA regard 2005 Club World Championship as the direct continuation to the Intercontinental/Toyota Cup

http://www.fifa.com/en/comp/Clubworld/tournament/0,4133,CWC-2005-10,00.html

http://www.fifa.com/en/comp/Clubworld/tournament/0,4133,CWC-2005-41,00.html

The 2000 tournament edition is pretty much ruled out as it was discontinued

São Paulo FC should be credited here as 2005 Intercontinental/Toyota Cup champions

Don't you guys ever check fifa.com? girco 02:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I can't speak for the rest but actually I do, and very often. If you read carefully it doesn't state that is the same thing, just says that "The second FIFA Club World Championship would build on the foundations laid by the Toyota Cup with the six continental champions participating in a knockout tournament.". Built on foundations is like saying that the Superbowl list should the AFC and NFC winners or the NBA should count ABA winners (Sorry non-US readers, couldn't think of any other suitable analogy). Is a different trophy, different competitors, different format. Just keeps the name and the venue, since even the organizers are different (FIFA vs CONMEBOL/UEFA). That "I'm better than you" attitude is not exactly conducent to Wikipedia. Just to finish, this is a quote from an old (2004) article in CONMEBOL.COM (in Spanish)

"COPA INTERCONTINENTAL Se trató la posibilidad de continuar con la disputa de la Copa Intercontinental (Europea/Sudamericana) entre un representante de Europa y uno de Sudamérica, con la siguientes modificación: la jugarían el campeón de la Supercopa Europea y el vencedor de la Copa Nissan Sudamericana de cada año. El campeón de la Libertadores, ya está estipulado, clasificará al Mundial de Clubes."

If you need Spanish translation I'd gladly help, but it makes very clear that CONMEBOL doesn't quite agree with you. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 03:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes but it also states that FIFA recognize the former competition organized by CONMEBOL/UEFA, as it lists the 2005 edition winner along with the former ones. I disagree on the different trophy, different competitors, different format argument. Based on that the first editions of the World Cup should be regarded as a different tournament since they featured no African nor Asian teams, let alone the format, which has changed wildly through the years (1950 notably). By the same token, why are the UEFA Champions League winners listed along with the former European Cup winners on the respective page? Different competitors, different format and quite possibly different trophy. Also the article you quoted states the continuation of the Intercontinental Cup as such as only a "possibility", which for being a year old article and due to the overcrowded calendar in Europe, it is pretty fair to expect will not happen. Also let me quote a much newer CONMEBOL.COM article:

"Basándose una vez más en la colosal figura de Rogério Ceni, el equipo tricolor alcanzó su tercera consagración intercontinental. [...] São Paulo mantiene una efectividad total en títulos intercontinentales. Con la victoria en la final por 1-0 ante Liverpool, son cuatro los partidos disputados y ganados, teniendo en cuenta las finales de la Copa Europea/Sudamericana de 1992 y 1993 ante Barcelona de España y Milan de Italia, respectivamente, y los dos partidos de esta edición del Mundial de Clubes de FIFA, ante Al Ittihad, de Arabia Saudita por semifinal y el mencionado encuentro ante Liverpool. De esta manera, igualó el record de Peñarol y Nacional, ambos de Uruguay, y Boca Juniors de Argentina en lograr tres títulos mundiales por el lado de Sudamérica."

I think that makes obvious that CONMEBOL also see the former Intercontinental/Toyota Cup and the current FIFA Club World Championship as the same tournament. girco 05:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think that is quite clear for all of us that, correct if I'm wrong:

• they are different tournaments;
• there's a strict relationship between both competitions.

So, what is the best way to unify the titles and statistics regarding both competitions? FTota 15:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe it would be best to keep the statistics at the new FIFA Club World Championship article. Mariano(t/c) 15:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Why not unify statistics in the same fashion as for the European Cup and Champions League? The information provided here, separating the tournaments, contradicts the general consensus in the football community and competent sources like FIFA and CONMEBOL. girco 16:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Great! Any other ideas? I think this will work fine.FTota 20:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, keep them separate and point to each other. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 02:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Allright, I did it. I appreciate your help. Now everything is fine.

[edit] Anon's comments

I rv'd the latest anon's comments since he removed and modified previous existing comments. Whoever posted them is welcome to re-write them here, this time without disturbing previous words. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 18:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Club logos removal

Someone is removing all the soccer club logos from each championship page. The person who is doing this claims that "Fair Use" is not for ilustrating. I totally disagree with him beacuse the reason why people put images and logos and everything on a encyclopedia is to ilustrate and make the information clear. Another point is that if the image is already hosted in wikipedia and used on the soccer clubs pages, why can't we use it also on the competitions page like this? The one who removes the logos is cleary misinterpretating the "Fair Use" rules. What do you people think about this subject?

This the copyright message for club logos. Ilustrations are ok by the rules below:

--Mrzero 21:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

See User_talk:Mrzero#Fair use. ed g2s • talk 22:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That's YOUR interpretation which is very controversial. The CLUB LOGOS are extremely helpful in pages like that. It's an extra identification and helps to improve the quality of the article. Everyone wants to improve Wikipedia and you are always doing the opposite thing. I am Brazilian and I can't remember many teams names but when I see the logo it's much easier to identify. Sorry but your points are very weak and i'll revert your changes.

--201.44.215.240 22:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)