Talk:Insurgency in Saudi Arabia

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Insurgency in Saudi Arabia is part of the Terrorism and counter-terrorism WikiProject, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of terrorism and counter-terrorism. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

This list is something I have been compiling for a while on my home computer. It is from the Saudi press and is quite incomplete. There are two reasons for this. First the official press here can be quite coy when they want to be, second I sometimes forget to make entries. [[Paul, in Saudi 04:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)]]

Contents 1 First item 2 The article name 3 Contents 4 Revision 5 Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula

[edit] First item

"National Guard collusion is suspected", any source? - Eagle 17:55, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Do you realize you are the first person I know of to visit this page? In any case, you may delete this comment if you like, it is a rumor that we exapts take as an article of faith. It is worth noting that the company in question is now guarded by real honest-to-goodness Americans. [[Paul, in Saudi 02:06, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)]]

[edit] The article name

In my opinion, this article should be renamed to "List of terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia" for two reasons: 1- it's a list, thus it should be indicated in its name like all other lists, and 2- the definition of insurgency does not include terrorism, and since most attacks, if not all, were aimed to kill (civilians in most cases), it is clearly terrorism. -- Eagle 14:34, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

The title needs work. No doubt about it. How about Saudi Insurgency Timeline? (I like the word timeline better than list.) I prefer the more technically correct Insurgency to the more PC Terrorism, but am willing to be reasoned with. What say we wait for some other people to post comments before we act? [[Paul, in Saudi 16:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)]]

Please note that I listed this article in the Wikipedia:Requested moves page, where other people should discuss and vote to determine whether or not this page should be renamed/moved. -- Eagle 18:04, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

I am inclined to disagree with using the words "Terrorism" or "Terrorist" in the title as they are implicitly POV. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Keep it neutral. Whig 08:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the words "Terrorism"/"Terrorist" usage, there are 22 repetitions of those words in this article, and like Terrorism against Israel in 2004 for example, its NPOV is already disputed and the {{totallydisputed}} tag is definitely needed since the source of most (if not all) entries is Saudi official media. -- Eagle 16:50, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

No doubt, as I said, this list began life as a clipping file for stuff from the Arab News. Strange there is nothing like it elsewhere on the net. I suspect as the article grows, it will gain more sources and more balance. Which title would you prefer, Eagle? [[Paul, in Saudi 02:47, 23 May 2005 (UTC)]]

I think we should let other people decide. 1 opposes so far. -- Eagle 08:57, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Well well.. since no one seems to be interested anyway, I think we should finish this by voting. I support the move of this article. So far 1 supports and 1 opposes. It looks like the final vote is yours, PaulinSaudi. -- Eagle 18:04, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

I'd prefer to avoid the word "terrorism" (and derivatives). Not because I don't think it is terrorism, but because it's just safest to be PC. That's an oppose then. violet/riga (t) 19:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 19:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I vote For changing the name to whatever eagleamn likes. I have been much impressed by his contributions here and respect his judgment. [[Paul, in Saudi 08:24, 27 May 2005 (UTC)]]

I am inclined to agree that this should be Changed to Terrorism in Saudi Arabia. It shows less characteristics of insurgency than it does terrorism. For example, many of the attacks are not targeting the Saudi government at all, some target civilians, some foreigners, and some US troops.

As for the PC argument, I dislike that. To not use words just because they have a stigma is only promoting the stigma. And it isn't even a means to an end, you will always have to be replacing the words you use because they will develop a stigma simply from use. No doubt insurgent will have a stigma of it's own within a few years simply because of it's use in Iraq, does it solve anything to say dissident instead of insurgent? No, your just ruining another word and confusing people in the process. Jimbobsween 23:47, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

It's a matter of interpretation. Some people will see Insurgency as a loaded/biased word, others may see Terrorism likewise. I personally think that Terrorism in Saudi Arabia is a better title. I do not see the word Insurgency as in anyway 'technically correct'. As most acts target civilians more than the Saudi government, terrorism seems a more 'technically correct' title. The article could be expanded to include further background so it is not just a list. Chwyatt 09:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contents

I think the article needs to be cleaned up because it is overloaded.

1-It would be easier if terrorist incidents that took place in 2004, 2005 are broken off into smaller articles (with links to them). See: Terrorism against Israel for example. However, this is not needed if the following is taken into consideration.

2-Names should not be listed unless there is a reason because this is an encyclopedia. For example, the names of Mubarak Al-Sawat and Paul Johnson should be there. But "Abdul Aziz ibn Rasheed Al-Inazi is arrested after a shoot-out in Riyadh," in fact, this entire "incsident" should be erased in my POV.

3- (2 cont') Red internal links should be minimized, except when the link is for an article that is expected to be written... ever.

4-Some entries simply just don't fit. Like: "The United States Embassy issues a message that revokes the travel advisory for Saudi Arabia that had been in effect for a year." This is almost periodical.

Moreover, it would be a better way (in my perspective) if only important incidents are listed, and in seperate articles (for example Khobar Towers Bombing). And by using the already-existing category (Terrorist incidents in Saudi Arabia), all of them can be found in a list. -- Eagle^amn 05:43, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Eagle, I must (with the greatest of respect) disagree. This article, timeline, whatever, is unique and useful. There seems to be no other place that lists the most recent batch of wanted men. If and when one of these guys does something worth an article, this list will provide context.

In fact context seems to be the key word. It shows progression, the march of events. I do not see this presented elsewhere. I also like the near-graphic nature of the timeline. It is easy to see what is going on.

In all, I like it. I know it is darn imperfect, but I still like it. Can we wait until some other voices chime in before we do anything drastic.

BTW, we got a 4-day weekend out of the national period of mourning. Paul, in Saudi 14:08, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revision

I have written a revision to this page, and would like everyone to take a look at it. As it is, this page is not exactly encyclopedic. This provides an overview of the conflict and a condensed timeline, and eliminates unnecessary information:

User:PBP/Saudi insurgency

Any comments would be useful. Perhaps this article can replace the one we have now. PBP 14:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

• I recommend strongly that this article be replaced by the revised version, as it is more coherent and encylopedic. I still believe that the name should be amended as well. -- Eagle^amn 03:33, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Since there are no objections, I have put up the revision. As to the name change--best to keep things neutral. PBP 22:27, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I am back from vacation and I must say I object. The revision is not encyclopedic in that i uses POV when none is needed. (It calls attacks 'major' for example.) It leaves out lots of really good information found nowhere else on the Net. (The lists of the Saudi Most Wanted.) It is factually wrong in places. (We can fix this of course. One example is calling the bombs of the Saudi Security Academy suicide bombs. They were not.) In truth I cannot imagine why my timeline format was so wrong as to attract so much attention. I will not revert. I respect everyone's efforts. I simply do not like the direction this is going. Paul, in Saudi 17:36, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how it's POV, or how it's unencyclopedic compared to the former article. It explains WHY the insurgents are fighting and gives some background to the attacks. Maybe if you wanted to create a page listing the Saudi Most Wanted, that would be fine, but every other article about a conflict gives some history of it. I don't know about you, but I don't think listing the name of every militant killed or arrested is needed in an article like this. PBP 18:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

How would you feel about using a title like List of Terrorist Activity in Saudi Arabia? (An idea previously suggested.) The advantage of listing the names is the possibility the link will come up Blue now or in the future. I was trying to build a framework that would have linked otherwise unconnected persons and events. Paul, in Saudi 03:14, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

While I believe the acts in Saudi Arabia to be terrorism, this is an encyclopedia, and calling them "insurgents" or "militants" is less POV and more adherent to Wikipedia policy. I will again reiterate that the article revision provides a clearer overview of the attacks in Saudi Arabia, rather than just listing them with no background information. PBP 03:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

What think you? Could the timeline be reborn as Timeline of attacks... or something? Paul, in Saudi 12:02, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Let's keep this page. But if you want to create a separate page (Timeline of attacks in Saudi Arabia) detailing the exact events of the conflict, i.e. the page before its revision, go ahead. It would serve as a detailed companion page. But I think a big overview is needed so outsiders who read it will understand what this conflict is all about.PBP 14:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Done! Paul, in Saudi 15:14, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula

I didn't know about this Insurgency article when I started the page Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula recently. That page needs work, I know, but it's a start. Note that the AQAP name is the group's own choice of name, and is not just an arbitrary article title.

LDH 19:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)