Template talk:Infobox UK place

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	To-do list for Template:Infobox UK place:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Complete roll-out. Add any new local features or maps that are required and add to documentation. Have straw poll on flags/regional lists (after TFD of old templates). Roll-out progress Infobox Transclusions Template:Infobox UK place 3,044 91% Template:Infobox Scotland place 159 Template:Infobox Place Ireland 97 (in Northern Ireland) Template:Infobox North East England place 20 Template:Infobox Wales place 0 Template:Infobox England place 0 Template:Infobox London place 0 Template:Infobox CoL 0 Template:Infobox Northern Ireland place 0 Last Updated: 21:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This template was for deletion on February 21, 2007. The result of the discussion was a keep.

Contents 1 Archived talk 2 Wales 3 UK county infobox maps 4 Aesthetics 5 Aesthetics + (Wales et al.) 6 District question 7 West Midlands map 8 Missing from various articles 9 City Distances 10 Suburbs 11 Maps 12 GBdot 13 Template:Infobox Sheffield place 14 Templates for Deletion 15 Flags/lists straw poll 16 Scotland map 17 Location map transclusions - efficiency tweak 18 Problems with Conversion 19 Distance from...

[edit] Archived talk

• /Archive 1 - includes all discussions during the development of this template.
• /Archive 2 - includes mostly discussions during roll-out of England/London

[edit] Wales

I've started on Wales. They seem to convert quite easy but most of the places do not seem to have lat/lon so they need to have an empty map_type= included to stop {{{map_type}}} appearing on the article. MRSC • Talk 20:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

We also need to accomodate this:

{{location map|Wales Gwynedd|label=|position=left|float=none|long=-4.1|lat=53.16|caption=|width=190}}

There may be more for each area. MRSC • Talk 20:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What about places which have a Welsh map on them, such as Porthmadog. Should they be left or replaced with the british isles map. Personally I would prefer the latter seem as the Welsh maps are not used consistantly. G-Man * 20:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Gwynedd is on 15 articles and Dyfed is supported but unused. As there is such limited use I say we move over to UK maps. If localised maps are required later it will not be difficult to add as the lat/lon data is there, all that is needed is to change the map_type and implement an extra map here. MRSC • Talk 20:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have uploaded a new version of the settings that adds map_type in on every change (whether there is one or not. So if it is already there it will need deleteing). On the subject of maps, when I have looked through User:Owain's contributions in the past there is at least one user who has an issue with him adding (as opposed to recplacing Welsh maps with) UK maps to Welsh articles. Therefore, it might be an idea to leave the map status as it is for now Pit-yacker 20:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

As it happens, I had a change of heart while updating and left the bespoke local maps in the map_type field. MRSC • Talk 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Also watch out for lots of +44-xxx dial codes. MRSC • Talk 21:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, we should keep the Wales maps with the articles that already use them or have one avaliable to them. It is better to see a city/town within Wales, rather than in the whole of the UK.- Nick C 17:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I may be too late here, but can I suggest a slight change of tactic to be used here? We have done all the basic coding and design work for the new template. But when we are now turning to Wales, in the light of the reaction from other areas of the UK, I think it may be advantageous to consider an extra phase which formally may not be necessary, but which probably will be quite a good idea in the long-term:

We need to go on a "selling drive" to sell the new map to people editing welsh articles prior to any large-scale replacement. In short, we need to extol its virtues, etc over and above the existing template. Some may not feel it is formally necessary, but we need to bring people on board here, and so for that reason it may well be necessary.

So, I suggest we set up some examples, post them to the Wales WikiProject and ask for any suggestions or comments, including any suggestions of how their project might like any customisations made (in the same way as we eventually had User:Bobbacon do for the Scottish articles.)

It's only an idea, but perhaps worthy of consideration, as it would help try to avoid some of the rancour that we have seen in debates about deploying the new template elsewhere. And, in a strange way, we would be acting both in a civil way to those editors, as well as being bold, because it seems that such involvement at this stage does not often happen before a new development is deployed. As I said, it is just a thought.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I have fairly neutral ideas about what mapping features should be enabled for Wales. Let's see what the opinion is of editors in that area. MRSC • Talk 21:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So how should Wales be approached? Should we sell the new template first? Who do we go to? As an example of a box I had previously converted Wrexham. Beyond the semi-automated conversion, I had attempted to fill out many fields missing from the old box. My thinking being that it is more likely to be accepted if the customisations which actually make it "more Welsh" than the old box are used Pit-yacker 15:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've started converting Wales articles again now the TFD is over. I've accomodated any requests that have come up on this talk page (there is one further down about languages). MRSC • Talk 16:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK county infobox maps

Something needs sorting with calibrating the red dot which are placed on the Greater Manchester map. Some of them are well out of the mark. The worst one so far is Harpurhey, which puts it well into Cheshire.
I know a lot of hard work was done to create the Greater Manchester map, but unless something is done soon to fix the problem, then the |map_type= Greater Manchester field should be removed from the infobox which then automatically reverts back to the UK map. With the UK map any slight difference was negligible, but with the Greater Manchester map the difference is noticeable.
At the moment people can't rely on the red dot being in the correct place. I wouldn’t be surprised with the same problem with the Greater London or Tyne and Wear maps. Cwb61 20:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The Greater London maps have been working OK. Could it be the data that has been put in needs tweaking? Sometimes the nominal "central" locations of places (say from OS) are off quite a bit of what you might expect, at least we found that in London (because of the scale, it doesn't notice on UK maps). Perhaps the calling syntax in the articles needs updating? MRSC 21:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll give it a go by trying to tweak the latitude and longitude figures and see what happens. Cwb61 21:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

How does one carry out this calibration? I'm intrigued. I'd like to see how it is done in practice, as I'm a nosey beggar. Only if anyone has the time, that is  DDStretch  (talk) 21:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

To calibrate the figures means altering in the infobox's latitude and longitude figures .

For example, the figures for Manchester City Centre are:

| latitude = 53.480556

| longitude = -2.236944

By slightly adjusting the figures, by going up or down, for examaple

| latitude = 53.480475

| longitude = -2.236848

then click Show preview shows the new positions of the red dot. If its not in the correct place, then just keep trying until you're happy its in the right place. Once you're happy with the new position, then click Save page. If someone else can find a better way, I'd like to know. Cwb61 22:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

--NO!!!!! Please don't do this!!! Manchester City Centre is actually in the right place - It is not in the centre of of the City of Manchester, it is directly adjacient to Salford and is correct! Moving the pointer to somewhere you think it should be is likely to produce wrong infomation for the actual location. Please just verify the co-ordinates use in the infoboxes. Jhamez84 07:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Jhamez84, randomly I picked Manchester City Centre as an example. I could have picked anywhere. I didn't mean that the co-ordinates were wrong and needed to be altered. I just used it for an example. Thinking about it now I should have used Harpurhey, that did need altering. Cwb61 16:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I also usually check the given location on http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/getamap/ and then put it where I think the central spot should be, then try that in WP (you can convert OS grid ref to lat/lon using http://www.streetmap.co.uk/). MRSC • Talk 22:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have always used the OS survey map to get the lats/longs myself, though most of the settlements I have done this for are small. I'm surprised you are altering the actual longitudes and latitudes that have been provided by OS survey. There will be occasions when the central part of a settlements has not been given by OS survey, I imagine, but I'm not sure the solutuon you are implementing is the best way forward, though it might be the quickest.

I would have thought the calibration would have involved determining the nature of an intermediate step, realised as a function, which mapped the lat/long figures onto the map coordinates. I would expected some simple generalised "curve fitting" to have modified the nature of the function to minimize the discrepancies. There are mathematical routines that can do that, and they would only have to be used to discover the function to use in the mapping step, and not in "real life".

I can see future editors checking and then altering the lats and longs you have worked out for some settelemnts, since they do not agree with "verified sources" (i.e., OS survey) and this might casuse problems down the line.

Of course, this may just be my mathematical background and life as a research scientist reasserting itself here.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I've tried altering the latitude/longitude figures to the actual place, but when I look at the Greater Manchester map the red dot still looks in the wrong position. The only thing to do is to tweak the figures up and down to make the red dot to look in the right position in relation to the Greater Manchester map irrespective of the actual place’s latitude/longitude position. This now means the dot looks in the right place, but when someone clicks on the top right Coordinates: of the page and follows to one of the maps they’ll find the map they are looking at is in the wrong position. Good work was done to make the Greater Manchester map, but its not working out. Personally I prefer the UK infobox map to be put back, but the powers that be won’t allow it. Cwb61 23:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I prefer the new maps, but I think the method of calibrating (which means altering the often-accurate and verifiable data, rather than the mapping function) is not, in my opinion, advisable. This is because it ends up providing inaccurate information at the end of the calibration phase, and this inaccurate information is liable to future good-faith editing by users interested in accuracy and the elimination of error, which will cause no end of trouble by placing the dot in thew wrong position (again). I wasn't aware that such a strategy was operating for this calibration.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has the choice use the correct information for the latitude/longitude figures, but put the red dot on the Greater Manchester map in the wrong position. Or vice-versa. Either way Wikipedia is now giving out false information - wrong latitude/longitude or wrong map position. Cwb61 23:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the map, or the settings which it uses, for Greater Manchester locations. If a location is marked wrong, it means the co-ordinates have been inputted incorrectly. I've checked throughly (you can too, see Orrell, Ramsbottom, Rochdale, Hale, Shaw and Crompton etc etc). Harpurhey was my fault (sorry)- I inputted the wrong figures someway, somehow. Places might not be where you think they are necessarily.

That said, you might be pleased to learn that the West Midlands Infobox map has been produced and uploaded for use. Jhamez84 07:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

No, there is nothing wrong with the Greater Manchester map itself. There is nothing wrong with the co-ordinates, check them on page List of United Kingdom locations. As far as I am aware they are based on Ordance Survey figures. The problem is that with some places they are made to look like they are in the wrong place on the GM map, but to follow the correct co-ordinates to a real map then it'll be found that they are in the correct place. Wikipedia is now giving the wrong impression with the red dots. I'd prefer the UK map be used again. Its all material anyway, we can have as many consensuses we like, but at the end of the day the small group will get their own way. Cwb61 14:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was given the impression that there was some deeper kind of calibration problem that was being "fixed" by tweaking accurate lat/long data. I'm glad that is not the case.

While we are on the subject of maps, you very kindly produced an initial map of Cheshire for us. I wonder if there would be any serious objections to implementing that map on the new infoboxes at all? If we could find out how the linkage between the map and the lat/long data to produce the marker was made, may be the map could be used for things other than settlements, such as locations of ancient monuments, and so on?  DDStretch  (talk) 14:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

(in reponse to the last edit by Cwb61, which conflicted with mine): So, let me try to get this straight. (a) The map is all right (i.e., drawn correctly). Does "There is nothing wrong with the coordinates" mean: (b) the coordinates given by OS survey are correct. and (c) The coordinates given in the final infobox are the same as the coordinates given by the OS survey, and are therefore also correct, or what? If not, why not? And if they are correct, then what is the problem with the map? I just cannot sort out what is being claimed here.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

DDStretch, The red dot on the GM map conflicts to where the place's actual position should be. As I said earlier, its material, the map is here to stay. I'm wasting my time to create or edit articles if someone thinks the place is somewhere when it is actually elsewhere. Cwb61 16:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok then. Let's take Harpurhey, which you've already mentioned as being a case in point (heh!). multimap] gives its latitude as 53.5065 and its longitude as -2.2155 [E] (or 2.2155 [W]). streetmap says either lat=53.510008 and long=-2.205032 or lat=53.506448 and long=-2.215493 depending on whether you choose Harpurhey, Manchester [City/Town/Village], or Harpurhey, Manchester [City/Town/Village], respectively. Now, which ones of these gives the wrong position for the marker on the map, and, if all do, what exactly is the action that is done to correct the marker's position?  DDStretch  (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've put the coords of the dogs' home into the article. The dot looks fine to me. Mr Stephen 20:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

(revert reset indent) Ah, I see what cwb61 was getting at, er, before. Horwich puts the dot high, just outside the boundary. On checking out Harpurhey carefully, the dot's also a fraction high, it should lie below an imaginary horizontal extension of the Salford/Bury border. Mr Stephen 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aesthetics

The template seems really squised up. Since I'm not really good with complex template syntax, maybe it would be possible for someone to: make the template slightly larger and the parameters more spaced out (larger breaks and slightly bigger font) and to make the images bigger? It's quite hard to tell (with England places) where the dot is supposed to be because it's disproportional to the size of the map. Geoking66 22:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The initial motivation to construct this template was criticism that the earlier templates were too spaced out and occupied too much space. In terms of dimensions, layout and basic design there is no difference between this template and the widely used {{Infobox City}}. MRSC • Talk 22:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aesthetics + (Wales et al.)

Forcing "(Welsh)" to appear after the Welsh name (see, for example, Aberdare) is not only overkill (the alternative name is not going to be in Basque or Korean, is it?) but looks ugly in my view.

I can see that there might just be a case for this in Scotland, where there can be two other names (Gaelic and Scots), but even there the main text of the article will identify these names (see Glasgow) so I think the visually intrusive labels are redundant in the infobox.

And why on earth have "Gaeilge" instead of "Irish" for places in Northern Ireland, when "Cymraeg" is not proposed for Wales? Finally, I do agree with User:Geoking66 (above) on excessive "scrunching up" -- to say that there was "criticism that the earlier templates were too spaced out and occupied too much space" is rather begging the question.

May I commend the infobox used at, for example, Belfast as an illustration of a good, well-spaced design which also deals in a visually pleasing way with the "alternative names" question. -- Picapica 15:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Welsh might be obivous to you. But what about to a president of the USA who had to ask which state Wales was in when meeting Charlotte Church? ;) Pit-yacker 17:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we should assume the reader of an article should possess no real knowledge about a place. What might be obvious and not in need of saying to us might need to be said to someone else. We're not writing this for our own benefit, but for others who may have no knowledge at all of the subject matter. I once knew a university graduate and teacher from the USA who was totally amazed when I told her that the UK was an island off continental Europe, for example, and this only croppedup because she asked me why there was a need to build "this Channel Tunnel thing"? I had to show her a map and explain it to her before she accepted that I wasn't playing a trick on her. She may not be typical, but I think we can be in danger of underestimating the lack of knowledge of others not from the UK at times.  DDStretch  (talk) 18:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

My intention is not to run Americans down, but I have met one who thought that Wales was part of London. I think we should assume the reader knows nothing. MRSC • Talk 19:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

DDStretch wrote:I think we can be in danger of underestimating the lack of knowledge of others not from the UK at times

I, on the other hand, am perhaps in danger of having overestimated the willingness of some of those backing the current form of this infobox to address the points I was making. Where in my submission did I argue that the Welshness of the Welsh name should go unexplained? All the articles about places with names in two languages currently begin as in these examples:

Aberdare (Welsh: Aberdâr) is an industrial town in...

Fishguard (Welsh: Abergwaun - "Mouth of the River Gwaun") is a coastal town in...

The inclusion of the word "(Welsh)" in the infobox therefore adds nothing to the article. I have the impression at times that some transclusionists have a tendency to get so carried away with all the programming that the straightforward reading of text for the purposes of gaining information can get overlooked. -- Picapica 07:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, May be you are right about us being difficult to persuade, but we experience that amongst ourselves as well - we aren't a big monolithic cabal of people - I had to argue long and hard about issues surrounding civil_parishes, but I just got on with it and eventually it turned out that the position I was arguing for prevailed. It isn't a totally unfamiliar state of affairs for me, for such scepticism is an in-built feature of scientific research, in which I was immersed for all of my professional working life. In this instance, with the more complete information you've now just provided, it is possible to understand better what the problem is. If all Welsh articles are encouraged to start in the way the two examples do and perhaps they already do, then I think you have a point. It does seem rather redundant and by omitting "(Welsh)" some extra space could be saved, especially if there is the possibility of adding other non-redundant information to the infobox. What does the Wales WikiProject think?  DDStretch  (talk) 11:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure there really is the strength of feeling about this amongst editors here that User:Picapica seems to think exists. The Welsh language addition was just a copy of the already existing language options for other places in the UK. There didn't seem any reason to do it any other way. We could remove it, or provide the option not to have the descriptor but leave the name. Is anything lost by including the language descriptor and is anything potentially lost by taking it away? This still is perhaps unclear. MRSC • Talk 12:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, DDStretch, for your second opinion: now I think we may be at the start of a constructive dialogue. I am a little saddened, though, by the implication (If all Welsh articles are encouraged to start in the way the two examples do and perhaps they already do) that you, or others, are proposing to make a blanket change to a set of articles all of which you, or they, have not read :(

My reason for thinking that there was what you call a "strength of feeling about this amongst editors here", MRSC, was the rush to respond to a point that I was NOT making in my first post here (under the not idly chosen heading "Aesthetics +")! Is anything lost by including the language descriptor and is anything potentially lost by taking it away?. Just to make it clear, again, my own answers to those questions are, respectively:

– yes (prettiness - you may not think that this is important, but to see redundant information bolted on in this visually ugly fashion is annoying, to say the least; for one thing it destroys the centrally aligned symmetry of the two names, both of which, by the way, are official, though I will grant that in the English-language encyclopedia it is right to give more prominence to the English-language name); and

– no, neither actually nor potentially (the information is already there in the very first words of each article).

But how are we non-techies – providing we haven't already been scared off by the "go away -- this a techie page for techie people" intricacy warning on the template page – even to begin to test what potential improvements might be made? What brought me here in the first place was comparing the following two infoboxes (I have taken the liberty of tidying up the layout of the second: it appears a little more messily at Cowbridge).

Abergavenny
Coordinates: 51.824° N 3.0167° W
Population	14,055
OS grid reference	SO295145
Principal area	Monmouthshire
Ceremonial county	Gwent
Constituent country	Wales
Sovereign state	United Kingdom
Post town	ABERGAVENNY
Postcode district	NP7
Dial code	01873
Police	Gwent
Fire	South Wales
Ambulance	Wales
UK Parliament	Monmouth
European Parliament	Wales
List of places: UK • Wales

Cowbridge Y Bont-faen
Coordinates: 51.4605° N 3.448° W
Population	390,616
OS grid reference	SS995745
Principal area	Vale of Glamorgan
Ceremonial county	South Glamorgan
Constituent country	Wales
Sovereign state	United Kingdom
Post town	COWBRIDGE
Postcode district	CF71
Dial code	01446
Police	South Wales
Fire	South Wales
Ambulance	Wales
UK Parliament	Vale of Glamorgan
European Parliament	Wales
List of places: UK • Wales

I wanted to see how the Welsh name Y Fenni could be added to the infobox at Abergavenny – ideally without the intrusive "(Welsh)" mention. But I'm damned if I can see how I can test that, even in a sandbox. So it looks like I will have to go on my technoramus knees and ask one of you cognoscenti to take pity on me and least show me what an Abergavenny infobox with "Y Fenni" in it, but no "(Welsh)", would look like. TIA. -- Picapica 15:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC) (PS: Is it just my browser, or does "Y Bont-faen" look bigger then "Cowbridge" to you?)

Firstly, I'm really sorry you feel at a technical disadvantage and are put off by that, there was no intention to exclude you or anyone else by design; if you feel that is the case, I lament it. Secondly, a bit of redundancy isn't neccassarily a bad thing for the reasons mentioned before. However, prettyness and redundancy need not be mutually exclusive, how about we remove the (Welsh) and make Y Bont-faen a link instead? MRSC • Talk 16:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well now, that is what I call a superb solution ...and I'm only sorry I didn't think of it myself!

I take my hat off to you, MRSC! May I propose that this be the standard way of dealing with any other-language names in the infobox? -- Picapica 17:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kindness. I've made it work the same way for all the others. MRSC • Talk 17:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Diolch yn fawr. MRSC. At the risk of appearing hyper-picky, might it be possible also to adjust the spacing so that the two names do not touch (or appear to do so) whenever descenders are involved? -- I've looked at the Abergavenny page, as now amended, in IE (which I normally approach only with very long bargepoles deployed) and the same touching of the names (or an impression of the same) appears there as in Firefox. -- Picapica

[edit] District question

Why does the Metropolitan borough link on articles go to Districts of England. Wouldnt it be better if it went straight to the metropolitan borough article? Same applies to Non-metropolitan districts. G-Man * 23:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

My thinking was you can see like-for-like on the same level, as Districts of England is an overview article. MRSC • Talk 23:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm the problem is, on articles where places are part of a non-met district. It merely has a link to 'district' and links to Districts of England, that doesn't explain to the layman who isn't familiar with uk local government divisions, what type of district the place is actually in. How are they surposed to guess that it's a non-met? G-Man * 21:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I see what you mean. Perhaps change the link to go to that section of the Districts of England article. The benefit of going to Districts of England is that it makes clear that not all districts are say non-met, which one might assume with no prior knowledge of local government districts. MRSC • Talk 08:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] West Midlands map

Is it possible we can accomodate a map for the West Midlands into the UK infobox? It contains the UK's second largest connurbation, and so I think it is wholly appropriate for an upload to this infobox, to bring the West Mids inline with other metropolitan areas. I can't see there being any objections, but thought it best to post here first rather than upload a map I've created directly to the syntax without due notice. ...Not that I know how to do it anyway!... Jhamez84 08:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes please add-in. It is great to see all these local maps included. MRSC • Talk 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how exactly. Previous versions I've uploaded merely replaced existing imagery as part of an already established syntax framework - this one will be brand new. These maps appear to be popular (Cheshire and South Yorkshire members requesting them next), and so if someone does have the knowhow, I'd appreciate it if they could post to me how I can do it next time (or post the link to the official instructions?). Jhamez84 17:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Slight criticism. Coventry looks all wrong. It makes it look as if there's a rural area within the south of Coventry city boundary, which there isn't. G-Man * 21:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The West Midlands map is wired up in this template. It is ready to be used, without needing further change in this template as soon as the Location map template for West Midlands is correctly callibrated. (see test Here (under large map) Pit-yacker 21:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've ammended some of the discrepancies regarding the conurbation not aligning with the county boundaries - should be fixed now, but I'm always welcome to feedback. Jhamez84 00:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing from various articles

I have looked around some articles and found the following fields that need to be included to make this template. They are found with varying number of appearances in the articles: Blackpool (with custom infobox); London (with custom infobox), Newcastle upon Tyne (with custom infobox), Manchester (with custom infobox). As these are main UK population centres at least some of this should be included.

Fields that are exclusive to each example are left out (ie. Greater London Pop. Density)

STATUS - example: Borough and Unitary Authority

AREA - the total area of the place

AREA RANK - ranking of the place in the country- example: 330th with link to List of English districts by area

ISO 3166-2:GB - this is a geocode standard (ISO 3166-2:GB - example: GB-BPL

ONS CODE - another statistics code (ONS coding system) - example: 00EY

NUTS 3 CODE - statistics code for Europe (Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics) - example: UKD42

POPULATION RANK - ranking of the population in the country- example: 119th with link to List of English districts by population

ETHNICITY - ethnic make up of the place - example: 78% white, 1% black

LEADERSHIP - political leadership - example: Leader & Cabinet

CONTROL - political control - example: Labour

MAYOR - town leader - example: Ken Livingstone

REGIONAL AUTHORITY - example: Greater London Authority

REGIONAL ASSEMBLY - example: London Assembly

ELEVATION - example: 72 feet

TIME ZONE - example: GMT (UTC0)

SUMMER (DST) - summer time zone - example: BST (UTC+1)

HISTORIC COUNTY - example: Lancashire

I do not have time to implement all these as I am going to be on holiday from tonight. I will do the more important ones today when I have time. I hope these suggestions are useful, regards, Bobbacon 08:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

These relate to local government districts, not settlements. Way back in the talk archives of this infobox, we discussed preparing an infobox to cover any unit from parish up to region via district and county, after this one. MRSC • Talk 08:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the articles appear to be about the cites but as they all have the same style of infobox (customised to their own needs) so I guess they must be referring to the local government districts. Confusing. Bobbacon 08:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

In a limited number of cases the city and local government districts coincide which creates this anomoly. MRSC • Talk 08:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

With regard to the above, there are several fields I feel are unnecessary, (these are only my thoughts) -

• DST/Time Zone - they are the same across GB so seems a bit silly
• Historic county - lots of previous debate (I have no real preference)
• Mayor - as most are non-notable, it doesn't seem important, but doesn't bother me!
• Are all the 'codes' necessary?

-Just my 2p worth –MDCollins (talk) 11:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Tine zone should be included, for the benefit of people overseas. However, there's no reason I can see, that it couldn't be hard-coded. Andy Mabbett 12:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if the codes are necessary as (from what I gather from a quick look) they represent more council and unitary areas but then every place in the UK falls into one authority or another anyway. They probably aren't necessary but I have noticed them cropping up before in other templates. If they were included they could easily be hard coded as they seem to be representative of unitary regions. I would propose a single code line (rather than three) in the format title: "ISO 3166-2:GB / NUTS / ONS" and data: "code/code/code" with relevant page links in the titles. I don't know if it is necessary, I'm quite neutral. Time zones (hard-coded), historic county, and mayor (lord provost/whatever they call in in each region) would all be useful. I also think area and elevation may also be useful optional fields- they come up a lot in templates I have seen in other countries infoboxes. Bobbacon 12:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we should leave anything extra for the infoboxes on the local government district articles. There has already been calls for less information to be included on this infobox, I think we have the balance right at the moment. MRSC • Talk 14:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to step back and think about how we are helping the structure of Local Administration as it interacts with settlements here. I think there needs to be some more real thought and more work about disentangling the two concepts of settlements and local administrative entities/areas. The two can become intertwined at the following "levels":

• Metropolitan Counties (though offhand, I don't knowm whether this is a legal or an accepted or readily understood term but what I mean is Greater Manchester or Greater London, and other entities at a similar level)
• Districts in a local administration sense. Concerning these, various towns and/or cities have been given unitary authority status, which may or may not contain areas outside the immediate central built up area of the main settlement. As examples, City of Chester versus Chester, or Warrington which has not distinguished enough between the "borough" and the "town", even though there are numerous civil parishes and villages contained within it which are not part of the town. From various discussions I've seen in various places about various other places, this is a continuing area for confusion and lack of clarity in writing.
• Civil parishes which may not even be present, or, if they are, which may or may not contain a number of settlements, one of which may or may not be given the same name as the civil parish.

Once we can really accept this hierarchy, or something like it that may emerge after discussions, then we can begin to think about the cases where it is appropriate, or not appropriate, to merge the two potentially separate articles together:

• (a) the potential article about the local administrative entity/area, and
• (b) the potential article that concerns itself with the settlement and settlement issues of places within the place mentioned in (a).

Each of the possible situations or combinations of settlement and local administrative entity (at whatever level) that might arise may require different kinds of things in any infoboxes, and it may worthwhile trying to associate each kind of potentially displayed piece of information for an infobox with its corresponding area or entity of local administration. That way, if, say, we have a unitary authority which has just one major town or city in it and nothing else, we know that we need an infobox that merges together the information about the settelement with the information about the local adminsitration and bodies that we have decided should go into an infobox for that level of local administration.

Now, I think that may be an accurate view of what I think we need to do, and I hope it is, at least a little, comprehensible. The basic approach can be carried out at an even lower level, if major suburbs of a large town need seperate articles written about them. It would be the basis of a completely unified apporach to describing in infoboxes settlements and local administration in the UK (or whatever parts of it "opt in" to doing it this way.) with all the benfits of maintaining them and ease of updating that builds on the work and experience of this new UK infobox.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought the point of this infobox was that it would be smaller than the old one. I think It's about right at the moment. G-Man * 22:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I agree with you. But how does one then handle a situation where, for example, an infobox about a district is constructed, and there is an article about a single settlement which is also a district. Does one put two infoboxes on the article? that is the kind of situation I am trying to get a handle on here.  DDStretch  (talk) 01:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] City Distances

In regards to a now archived discussion, distance fields for Cardiff and Belfast are now added. Bobbacon 08:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suburbs

Having looked back at WP:Sheffield, and the various TfD comments, one of their concerns is that there is too much repetitive information. Could we introduce a couple of switchs like suburb=true and main=Sheffield that would turn off some of the entries (like phone code, police, fire and ambulance) and introduce a link to the area article where this information could be located? There wouldn't need to be hard and fast rules about where the switch is used, only that there must be a good quality parent article to link to. Just a thought. Regan123 12:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This might also be a solution to a related potential problem if coded well: The problem of multiple settlements within the same civil_parish where separate articles are justified but which would be "overkill" in the infobox department (for exmaple, what would one put in for "population" if the population figures are given by civil_parish). It is a "parallel" kind of problem, and could be solved in very similar ways. I think it should be considered for suburbs with a view to its broadened application.  DDStretch  (talk) 16:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

The maps have all gone right justified. I think this might be a problem caused at Template:Location map, but I've not sure. MRSC • Talk 14:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

We seem to have a box around Scotland that wasn't there before. MRSC • Talk 19:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It is still there today. Anyone any idea why? MRSC • Talk 05:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It was a problem at Template:Location map. MRSC • Talk 05:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GBdot

There are loads of articles which dont have a proper infobox at all and instead have the Gbdot map thing, just look at all of the articles which are linked to it. These should all be upgraded to a proper infobox. G-Man * 22:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree it has been my intention to do some at some point. There are a whole family of these templates:

• Template:GBthumb: In use by over 1000 articles. IMHO, these split between places which should have an infobox and attractions/landmarks which should use (the more flexible, easier to use and better contrasting) Template:Location map and/or Template:coor title d
• Template:GBthumb-named: In use by a handful of articles. IMHO, much the same action necessary as GBthumb.
• Template:GBthumb-caption: In use by one article.
• Template:GBmap-named: Unused. Uses static image rather than dyanmic dot. IMHO should be deleted immediately.
• Template:GBdot-small: As above
• Template:GBthumb-bare: Previously used by Template:Infobox England place. However, was removed from use (and the template) before the new template was created. Consequently, IMHO, should be deleted as part of a "house-keeping" exercise even if the England infobox is saved.
• Template:GBthumb2 as GBthumb-bare.

Pit-yacker 01:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

As they are unused and obsoleted by Template:Location map I have put Template:GBthumb-bare, Template:GBthumb2, Template:GBdot-small, and Template:GBmap-named at TfD. see:

• Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:GBthumb2
• Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:GBmap-named

Pit-yacker 14:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Infobox Sheffield place

This template was deprecated, and this was requested as its replacement; however, there were a few concerns as to how to adjust this infobox, so the other one had similar functionality. Whenever that is done, and that template is deprecated, feel free to request its speedy deletion. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 02:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

There are about 5 articles using this template, so a manual swap of templates would be the right step. Information contained within that infobox that won't be in the UK version, should just be included in the article prose. Jhamez84 02:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've tagged it for SD. Jhamez84 12:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

And now it's gone. I'll check the England and London versions if they are orphaned. If so, I'll tag these for SD. We need to convert the remaining Scotland, Ireland etc templates per the administrator before all can be deleted. Jhamez84 14:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Templates for Deletion

The outcome of the debate as to whether or not to delete the various home-nation and city-region predecessors of this UK template closed with a consensus to delete. Thanks to all those who passed comment, regardless of standpoint. Roll-out should now be completed for all parts of the UK. Jhamez84 02:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Let's get on with the conversion task... MRSC • Talk 04:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags/lists straw poll

As the TFD is over, would someone like to set this up? There were quite a few possible options available and I can't quite remember what the position was. I don't want to offend anyone by missing anything out. Thanks. MRSC • Talk 04:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

--Guys we need to post to all the WikiProjects, noticeboards and the UK and C.C article talk pages!!!!!! I'll see what I can do again. Jhamez84 11:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scotland map

I created a Scotland map and set it using the location of Aberdeen. However the dot seems to be static over Aberdeen and doesn't move accordingly to other places (particularly in Aberdeenshire places such as Crimond and Cornhill, Aberdeenshire). If anyone knows how to sort it that would be great as it is going to cause problems I think as the template is rolled out. The code is found at Template:Location map Scotland. Bobbacon 07:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There appears to be some problems generally with images disappearing this morning, perhaps because of database problems. MRSC • Talk 08:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The Scottish input code doesn't take into account the differing police forces and fire brigades. Also, agree with Warofdreams that the 'red dot' doesn't locate to the correct position using the latitude/longitude inputs. --Bill Reid | Talk 16:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, meant Bobbacon! --Bill Reid | Talk 16:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I took a peek in your sandbox and corrected a field which generates the services. Someone more map-orientated may be able to help with the red dot. MRSC • Talk 16:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Cheers! Thanks for that. --Bill Reid | Talk 18:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That same person would be of great help for the Template:Location map West Midlands! I can't work this one out! Jhamez84 17:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of the services are still wrong the entire Strathclyde council areas where listed under Lothian and Borders for the fire services I have corrected them but the map is still not working I was going to apply the template to Glasgow but the maps is showing the location of Glasgow as being just south of Aberdeen the template should not be rolled out unless it it fixed. --Barry O'Brien entretien 22:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Kalan keeps fiddling with Template:Location map. It is causing problems all over Wikipedia. The best place to raise such map issues is probably Template_talk:Location_map Pit-yacker 00:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes the effect of changes to the Template:Location map are not updated on the articles until an edit (or null edit) is made. For the services, let us know a specific locality that is not working and what it should be showing, so the look-up table can be updated. MRSC • Talk 12:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I have fixed the services but see here the map is way off location, and I have no idea how to fix that --Barry O'Brien entretien 05:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent)How is the dot now? It looks Ok for Aberdeen & Glasgow to me. Mr Stephen 09:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No, its better but not accurate enough. It puts Lossiemouth not by the Moray Firth but well and truly in it. --Bill Reid | Talk 10:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I used Duncasby Head and the Mull of Kintyre to calculate the coords, and they come out OK. You can see all three here. Mr Stephen 12:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Lossiemouth, Buckie, Fraserburgh are all drowned while Inverness and Stornaway have been moved inland; strangely, Wick and Kirkwall seems to be correct. A bit of tweaking still needed.--Bill Reid | Talk 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the map may have been rotated a bit -is that possible? The way I have calibrated it, stuff on a line joining Kintyre & John o'Groats should be OK, stuff to the right will go up & right, stuff to the left will go down and left. We need a map in (checks) a cylindrical projection. Mr Stephen 20:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location map transclusions - efficiency tweak

At the moment every type of location map that is supported by this template is transcluded into every article. i.e. an article in London will get a copy of the Manchester location map transcluded. AFAICT this cant be an efficient way to work. A few days ago I made a failed attempt to tweak this so that only the Location map that was needed was transcluded. However, for some reason that I dont understand this fell over when an article had an empty map_type i.e: |map_type= As more maps are added this is only going to get more inefficient. Has anyone got any ideas on how to address this issue? Pit-yacker 21:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Might automating the maps from various fields (such as metropolitan county) help? I think this would also stop the kind of strange edits seen to Horwich yesterday, resulting in the creation of the wholly inaccurate (per Google maps, Google Earth, Ordnance Survey, Streetmap, NASA WorldWind etc) and inappropriate Image:Horwich in Greater Manchester.png. Automating maps has been discussed before now. Jhamez84 02:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought this would be a good idea but there is the problem of places with bespoke maps set by map_type. Let's give it some thought, as it is not an urgent matter. MRSC • Talk 14:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Conversion

I cant get Police and Fire to display on Loughor Pit-yacker 16:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Swansea added to the template. Regan123 16:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

::Fire is ok, but Police still isnt showing? Pit-yacker 17:00, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• Llanymynech: According to the article it stradles the England/Wales Border Pit-yacker 13:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• Itton:Appears to be contradictory over its district/county Pit-yacker 13:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Distance from...

May I suggest, as part of the more advanced features of London_distance= and Edinburgh_distance= fields, that, as part of the documentation and usage, we include the direction which these cities are from the settlement being written about.

For example, Oldham would be inputted as follows:

|london_distance= 164 miles (264 km) [[Boxing the compass|SSE]]

With SSE (South-Southeast) being linked with Boxing the compass for context. I think this is the most useful to readers and should be the style guide used throughout UK articles.

A point for users, is that www.genuki.org.uk/ has a gazeteer which can calculate distances (and direction) from other settlements, including the City of London, for those wondering how to source or calculate the distance. Jhamez84 02:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)