Talk:Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation

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This page should get a new name - it's only called the Indonesian Confrontation from the Malaysian point of view. I'm not sure what a good name would be. Maybe Indonesia-Malaysia Confrontation? There's a redirect for Konfrontasi, and that's the name I'm familiar with, but it breaks the "use english words in titles" style rule. I think there must be a better name that I'm not thinking of. Ideas?

Some editing wouldn't hurt either... -Cdc 03:38, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Never mind, I decided Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation is just fine, so that's where we are now. hooray.. now about that editing... -Cdc 03:45, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, now I'm editing (and talking to myself, apparently...) I'm putting a few sentences here that don't fit with my understanding of the events, but I'd like to reconcile these different stories - basically, I know the Confrontation as an student of Indonesian history/politics - the original writer was apparently more familiar with the Malaysian side.. no reason these can't agree. Anyway, stuff I deleted:

Indonesia claimed Sarawak and Brunei
(I understood it more as sukarno arguing (unfairly, perhaps) that malaysia was a british pawn, and basically using the confrontation to stir up nationalist sentiment domestically, where life was pretty rough at the time). My sources don't make a mention of specific claims of rights to territory; Sarawak/Brunei were never Dutch colonies.. but maybe I'm wrong?
The vote was organized in Sabah and Sarawak regions and the creation of the federation (Malaysia Day) was to be postponed to September 16 so that UN teams could gather votes from Borneo. After the UN presented a pro-Malaysia report...
Per Ricklefs, History of modern Indonesia since c.1300, the federation was declared on 16 sept, before the results of the referendum were reported, angering sukarno. I'm changing to that version.
There's lots of internal Indonesian politics that are needed to really understand why Sukarno picked this stupid fight - that'll have to wait.
-Cdc 04:46, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think Konfrontasi would be a better name, for the same reasons why German Air Force leads to Luftwaffe. Second, it is used in the two countries most concerned. Third, it's simpler and more intuitive, and I don't think anyone will search Wikipedia for "Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation". Grant65 (Talk) 13:31, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

  • I believe the page used to be called Konfrontasi though I'm not sure when (or why) the name was changed. I agree that it was probably a better name. Cjrother 18:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I'd suggest it stay here, per the "Use English names" convention. I know "Konfrontasi" is the most commonly used term in Indonesia and Malaysia, and is commonly, but not exclusively, used in the English literature, but I think in the context of this general encyclopedia, it's a vague term, and better left a redirect. CDC (talk) 22:50, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I speak from the Singaporean perspective, and yes, I do feel Konfrontasi is a better page title, partly because it is almost always refered to as such here (maybe because Singapore is apparantly left out of the title).--Huaiwei 14:28, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

If there are no further protests in one week, I will be moving the article back to Konfrontasi. I would also like to further point out with regards to the use of "English names", that Konfrantasi is the term reguarly used in English texts describing that incident.--Huaiwei 17:46, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Announcing Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board

After some thought and consideration, I created an Indonesia-related topics notice board, along the same lines as other regional notice boards (such as those for Malaysia and Africa). This was established to coordinate efforts to improve Indonesia-related Wikipedia entries. If you've made contributions to Indonesia-related articles in the past, or would like to, please take some time to visit, introduce yourself, and sign the roster. --Daniel June 30, 2005 18:38 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

As per discussions above, Konfrontasi is a more common term in use by all three countries affected by it even in English publications. It is also more accurate since the old article excludes Singapore, which is also involved in the said event.--Huaiwei 13:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. As per nomination.--Huaiwei 13:44, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support - If one considers Brunei, there are now four countries who have some history with the Confrontation, all of whom use "Konfrontasi." --Daniel 18:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support I've studied quite a bit about this and it's true, Konfrontasi is the word. Gryffindor 21:46, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Konfrontasi is not used to mean any other "confrontation" in English.Grant65 (Talk) 03:02, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose Konfrontasi may be what many people locally call it (I don't, and I was living in KL from 1963-1966), but it is not English and so not Wikipedia naming policy. As for the Indonesia-Malaysia label, this matches id:Konfrontasi_Indonesia-Malaysia. --Henrygb 01:57, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is what I've always called it in English. – Axman (☏) 05:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Object, not an English word. Radiant_>|< 00:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is the English Wikipedia. *drew 00:41, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Oppose It's not the predominant term for this conflict in the English language; however, if it were, language shouldn't prevent it being used on en.wiki. Just look at Luftwaffe. Changed to support. SoLando (Talk) 01:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment. To all voters from Radiant! onwards, where is your proof? While I have given mine, I dont see any effort made to counter my proposal except through a bunch of obviously ill-informed votes. Thankfully, wikipedia is no democracy, and I hope that applies here.--Huaiwei 21:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
      • None of the objectors actually provide strong reasons for their position. To recap: (1) Naturally, the Indonesian Wikipedia should not call the article Konfrontasi, since the word may mean other "confrontations" in that language. In English it does not, so we can use Konfrontasi. (2) It is a fallacy that we are required to English words in article titles. (3) What one individual calls this conflict is irrelevant. (4) Konfrontasi is not the predominant term, but neither is Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation. The common name is Indonesian Confrontation . We can't use that because it's one-sided and we can't use Confrontation. In second place is Konfrontasi . Grant65 (Talk) 22:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Huaiwei, please refrain from using terms like "ill-informed votes" just because the vote isn't going the way you'd desire. Now look, I've said it should be moved to Konfrontasi IF it was the predominant term in English - it isn't! Even if the US Senate uses it, that's irrelevant - they weren't directly involved in the conflict. Terms like Luftwaffe are used in en.wiki simply because they have predominant usage in the English language. Like Grant says, the standard term is Indonesian Confrontation, but that doesn't encompass all of its participants. The National Malaya & Borneo Veterans Association UK [1] uses "Indonesian Confrontation", the Australian War Memorial does too [2], as does the Royal Australian Navy [3], the British MoD site [4] and RAF [5]. There is even a book that uses "Malaysian-Indonesian Confrontation" [6] SoLando (Talk) 00:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

However, Konfrontasi is more common than "Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation", "Malaysian-Indonesian Confrontation", (etc) so that argument doesn't work either. Konfrontasi is also recommended by its simplicity. Grant65 (Talk) 10:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is more common, but Indonesian Confrontation is even more common than Konfrontasi. Both titles aren't encompassing enough for very different reasons; Indonesian Confrontation leaves out the other protagonists, while Konfrontasi's usage in the English language is too limited, making it just as "one-sided" as Indonesian Confrontation. It's a pity no battle honours were awarded by all sides involved - at least that way there would be some "officiality" about the naming convention for this conflict. SoLando (Talk) 10:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
There are 13,700 English language pages which use konfrontasi.[7] That is not much less than the 16,700 English language pages which use "indonesian confrontation" OR "indonesia confrontation".[8] Grant65 (Talk) 00:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Grant, though I don't believe it's the predominant term in English, I'm willing to change my vote to support, but i'd still prefer if there was more "official" guidance on determining the title used in Wikipedia. Maybe we could contact a government body from each country involved (Foreign Ministry, perhaps) to see if they'd tell us which title they use for the conflict. What do you think? SoLando (Talk) 02:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure that most of them refer to the "Indonesian Confrontation". The point I'm making is that, since that is not a suitable name because of its one-sidedness, the second most common name is Konfrontasi.Grant65 (Talk) 00:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I understand, and i'm going to change my vote to support so that we don't go round in circles ;-). I have to say that I still have some doubt as to the validity of Konfrontasi being used in en.wiki (at least at this time), and I'd personally prefer Indonesian Confrontatiion; however, as you said, Konfrontasi is a much simpler (more well known) title to the current one. SoLando (Talk) 09:27, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Is it too late to support? __earth 04:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
    • No. Especially when the objections are spurious :-) Grant65 | Talk 09:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • oppose In which case I should step in with another vote for opposition - in my experience New Zealand military history and media (English native speakers), refer to it as the Malaysian Confrontation, (c.f. Indonesian) or just the Confrontation. I don't recall reference to Konfrontasi except when quoting Indonesians. I think this is an argument for keeping "Confrontation" in the English language Wikipedia, (Konfrontasi presumably being appropriate in local language versions).Winstonwolfe 10:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • Henry, you are correct that Wikipedia policy is to use English wherever possible. However, there are exceptions when words of non-English origin are commonly used in English. For example, Palestinian uprising redirects to Intifada and German Air Force redirects to Luftwaffe. Grant65 (Talk) 05:38, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • To add on, saying "Konfrontasi is used by locals" gives the impression that it is not used outside the region, and is only used by Malay speakers. Hardly. A simple google search shows it being used by the Australian government [9], by the US Senate [10], was the title of English books (which were not writtern by locals) [11] [12] and English academic journals [13], amongst others. It is not as much a "local" terminology as presented.--Huaiwei 15:25, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Huaiwei happens to be correct. This is a case where a foreign word happens to have entered the English lexicon, since this was something the Australians and Brits (and to a lesser degree, Americans) were involved in it. --Daniel 05:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Request not fulfilled due to lack of consensus. Rob Church Talk 20:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] US

AFAIK, the US refused to provide support for Malaysia (largely believed to be because they were to busy in Vietnam etc and didn't want to alienate Indonesia who they were still funding) and this is frequently cited as one of the reasons Malaysia decided to adopt a fairly neutral foreign policy, forming the non-aligned movement etc since they recognised from this that it would be a mistake to count on the support of the US etc who would abandon you if it was in their best interest. I don't have the time to research this but it should be mentioned Nil Einne 16:21, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Indonesia is the largest nation in the region during that time. With the situation in Vietnam getting worse, the US was worried that Sukaerno would change allegiance to the communist. In fact, the presence of a large communist party in the form of Partai Komunis Indonesia worried US very much. The foreign policy was adopted partially because of this situation. But Malaysia did not form the non-aligned movement. The movement instead was formed by Indonesia with several pro-revolutianary country. As for the Philippines participation in the confrontation, it is not stated out. Philippines did act aggresively in the first year of the confrontation by making a bombing run in Kota Kinabalu/Jesselton naval base. However, they stopped the attack when Malaysia's Chief of Navy under specific order from Tunku to fire to shoot down enemy aircraft. [User - Amlisk]
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