Talk:Indo-European languages

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Can some one tell me if this picture I created for Indo-Languages is accurate? If it is, could I or someone put it on the page?

Branches of the Indo-European Family

==GA failed==

For these reasons:

  • Some researchers have proposed other, more controversial supergroupings. like whom? can we have a citation for that?

-Yes, an example could be the supposition of the existence of a super-group of Germano-Slavo-Baltic or putting Phrygian in the Greek group.

  • No doubt other Indo-European languages could be less pov.
  • Rephrase this please They disagree as to the original geographic location (the so-called "Urheimat" or "original homeland") from where it originated.
Here we go: "One of the most prominent debates in Indo-European studies is the issue of the geographical location of the original "homeland" of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (the so called "Urheimat").--Khodadad 07:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This sub-section should be a full prose, with no lists.
  • Is it possible to have a text instead of a list in the sub-section The Kurgan hypothesis? It looks more like an almanac as it stands.
  • The Tarim mummies possibly correspond to proto-Tocharians., it would be nice to know who said it or if every scientist believes in this.
it is absurd to expect every scientist to agree on anything. Yes, a citation would be nice, but consensus in anything cannot be an expectation for GA yamaplos 02:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Elizabeth Wayland Barber "The Mummies of Urumchi", New York, NY: Norton and Company, 1999. --Khodadad 07:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Could A strength of the Kurgan hypothesis lies... be balanced by a weakness to remove the POVness of the statement.
Honestly, hardly. The rest of the theories are very close to BS. --Khodadad 07:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • spreading peacefully ... who knows there weren't any wars?
Archaeology knows. No destruction or burning found in that layer. --Khodadad 07:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Can we have a counterargument of The main strength of the farming hypothesis lies ....
  • The inline external references should be turned into footnotes or references.
  • Is this :The linguistic community claims a common Indo-European word..., another theory or part of the Anatolian theory? If so, place it in another paragraph. If not, remove the parenthesis and state it as an example against or for the theory.
  • IMO, there aren't enough references for the researches that were done on the languages, especially for the history section.
  • The Lead section doesn't comply to the WP:LEAD policy.
  • The classification section should be expanded to talk about the modern languages briefly.
  • There could be place for distinctions between modern IE languages (or IE groups), like why is a certain language in this group and not in this one.
Anyhow, these are minor adjustments that can be addressed thus popping the article back in the GA nomination in a matter of weeks. It is a well-written article, almost POV and really researched. Lincher 00:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Almost POV? Gee, thanks... Angr (talk) 05:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
read Almost NPOV, I suspect. Eluchil404 23:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Source needed for another article

I wrote that all consonants in Indo-European languages are pulmonic in the International Phonetic Alphabet article. Is there a resource tha can back this up? I know it's true (unless I missed some sort of obscure dialect), so I was wondering if any of the sources here back up this statement. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 19:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you have missed two. Ossetic has borrowed Caucasian words complete with ejectives, and at least Sindhi has somehow developed implosives. That's AFAIK all, though.
David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 18:15 CEST | 2006/10/28

[edit] Out of India

So, the new length section on the "Out of India" hypothesis says, in part: "postulating that Vedic Sanskrit essentially equates to Proto-Indo-European". If this is actually a correct description of the Out of India hypothesis, then it does not deserve the lengthy writeup that it receives in this article, since the postulate "that Vedic Sanskrit essentially equates to Proto-Indo-European" is known to be false. AJD 12:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements suggested

Couldn´t someone who knows more than I make a "Common features" part, telling what is special with the Indo-European languages, compared with other language families?

most "common features" have been worn down beyond recognition. Hindi is even an ergative language, and the syntax of English is more like Chinese than like proper IE for chrissake :) Features of the proto-language are discussed on the PIE article. dab (ᛏ) 21:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Indo-Iranian as the largest branch?

I am a native speaker of Persian, so far be it from me wanting to undermine the elevated status given to Indo-Iranian as the largest branch. However, to keep things honest, considering that a good portion of Indians are Dravidian speakers, is I-Ir really the largest branch or should we opt for the Germanic branch (because of English) or even Romance (Spanish)?--Khodadad 07:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is. We didn't just add the numbers of Indian and Persian nationals, see List of languages by number of speakers. However, it might be argued that Indo-Iranian is really a super-branch, consisting of two sub-branch. Considering this, it becomes apparent that the notion of "main branch" is rather arbitrary and defined by our limited knowledge rather than by intrinsic qualities. Indo-Aryan would still come up top as the largest branch even if considered on its own, largely due to the uncontrolled population growth in India. Iranian would come fourth after Germanic and Romance (Germanic is "inflated" by the status of English) dab (ᛏ) 22:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

I'm removing the following sentence from the article:

The linguistic community further notes that linguistic evidence suggests a later date for Proto-Indo-European than the Anatolian theory predicts.

What evidence? As far as I can tell, there is no consensus on the dating of PIE using linguistic data; that's actually why there are several hypotheses. Even though I am not fond of the Anatolian theory, there is literature supporting it with dates (e.g. R. Gray and Q. Atkinson, Language-tree divergence times support the Anatolian theory of Indo-European origin. Nature, 426(6965):435–9, 2003) Pruneautalk 23:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

there is no "consensus", but there is a clear majority opinion. Gray and Atkinson are not part of the "linguistic community", and their arguments are not strictly linguistic. Of course there is "literature supporting the Anatolian hypothesis", otherwise we wouldn't even mention it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is favoured only by a small minority. This is all discussed in detail on Anatolian hypothesis and Kurgan hypothesis. dab (ᛏ) 10:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Correct. Of course dates can be derived from linguistic reconstructions: The existence of a common terminology of wheeled transport between the Atlantic and the Tarym Depression, which only linguistic laypeople like the above mentioned Gray and Atkinson can attribute to borrowing or indepentent invention. One of many references: Martin E. Huld: Reinventing the Wheel: The technology of transport and Indo-European Expansions. In: Proceedings of the Eleventh Annual UCLA Indo-European Conference, Los Angeles, June 4-5, 1999. Edited by Karlene Jones-Bley, Martin E. Huld, & Angela Della Volpe. [JIES monograph studies 35] Institute for the study of Man, Washington, DC, 2000:95-115. This must then be correlated to archeological facts, saying that the first wheels are known from not earlier than ca. 35th centy. B.C. And of course computer packages from biological informatics can NOT compute the time of linguistic splits, for this would presuppose a constant rate of linguistic change, what NO linguist would admit to have ever existed. G&A have no linguistic arguments at all, and rely exclusively on a fine mathematical theory, which regrettably has nothing to to with language change. HJJHolm 14:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] 100M threshold

our brief list of major IE languages in the lead is a magnet for trouble. Especially the Persian language is being re-added with determination. And now some anonymous editor has even promoted Persian to 101 million (sic) native speakers on our list of languages by number of native speakers. This is silly. There is no doubt Persian is a major IE language, and the main representant of the Iranian branch, so maybe we can find some way of satisfying our Iranian nationalist editors here without tilting numbers. We could mention, for example, English ('world language'), Hindustani (India/Pakistan), Romance languages (S America, Africa), Russian (former SU) and Persian (Iran-Central Asia) as the main international languages, for example. dab (ᛏ) 11:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh crap. I just removed French, and readded Farsi... I wonder if that makes me an Iranian nationalist... Tomertalk 07:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balto-Slavic?

Why is a theoretical language group included here?! there's two groups.. BALTIC and SLAVIC, which (Personal attack removed) put them together?

this is how it should look:

SEPERATE!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rudidas (talk • contribs).

no, it is fine as it is. all language families are established by comparison, and Balto-Slavic is not particularly controversial (outside Baltic nationslism, of course). dab (𒁳) 08:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


please do not talk about that what you don't know about.. Baltic languages are a subgroup of Indo-European.. Balto-Slavic is hypotheitcal, incorrect and outdated.. I am coming forward to you by even leaving it in this article, as it has no right to be there, then we'd have to include the other 400 hypothetical language groups, and that'd be a mess. as i said, don't talk about what u don't know about.. i've talked to professors in linguistics, as well as historians, and ive (years ago) consulted books, and trust me.. its how im saying it is. :) --Rudi 17:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


it is gonna be like this:

please stop changing it whoever you are. it's immature. --Rudi 17:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] my {{see also}} change

in my change, i unwantedly changed a pipe link. could someone change {{see also}} so it's possible to insert pipe links?100110100 13:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sassetti

The History section should mention Filippo Sassetti, Gaston Coeurdoux and Karl Schlegel.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.113.156 (talk) 10:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC).


[edit] attestation

The term attestation? or language attestation is commonly known but, things commonly know are rather unclear. It will be good to quote some definitions if exist.

What it mean exactly.

  • Are any degree/scale of attestation ?
  • Attestation by know sounding but older words (thats ok - intuitive.
  • How to classify attestation of unknown writing and unknown sounding... at least few examples may be given in extinct languages?

Did anybody try to apply a little math to measure different attestations? Some attestations are not falsifiable other are based on assumption that the attested language should be similar to some other near - questionable. Practice of comparing passage to passage in other text may be based on adjusting the product of research to the source . (Verses to verse and round again)

Nasz 08:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid you are not making any sense. You may want to consult a dictionary? wikt:attestation? dab (𒁳) 10:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

in simple english : What is attestation ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nasz (talk • contribs).

can you do me a favour and just click on the link I provided? See also http://onelook.com , and if all else fails, consult WP:RD/L. dab (𒁳) 09:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] correlation L:G

Please read more before doing reverts with “irrelevant” commendation. The good starting point is R1a1 with numerous references. Statistical data for correlation:: languages to Y haplogroup s was first given by Cavalli-Sforza and nobody show it invalid rather otherwise. Significant statistically correlations are explainable and may be explained but being tutor to irrevelator is beyond scope of this short note Nasz 01:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that I've read quite a bit about this kind of stuff, being a professional comparative linguist myself. The majority of comparative linguists do not accept the idea of any straightforward correlation between genes and dispersals of prehistoric language families, and in particular most do not subscribe to Cavalli-Sforzas theories of linguistic prehitory. I'll keep on reverting this at least until relevant linguistic sources are introduced. --AAikio 17:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
There is correlation statistical term. You introduced unknown the idea of ... straightforward correlation" Do you know any flaws in methodology or reasoning in related publications?
I see you as speaker of majority of comparative linguists who do not accept the idea of straightforward correlation. Could you please to list some members of this group or better to show the publication where the disagreement with correlation or straightforward correlation is debated? I will like to know the methods it may revolutionize all mathematic and science to!
Nasz 12:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

--

a brief reference to archaeogenetics is certainly an option, but not in such a naive and biased way. Try to understand a subject first, and then try to form a grammatial sentence giving an accurate summary. And I am sorry, but "Out of India" may have support among assorted Swamis and Yoga teachers, but it simply isn't notable in any way in serious literature. We can well say "some people would like to believe that", but that's as far as it goes. dab (𒁳) 10:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


Personally I do not accept OIT. I listed here (WP) referenced data documenting on the flaws of OIT. I don’t have idea where from you get idea.... My personal opinions … I trying to hide to report NPOV. You I think reject something on base of group membership. What mean "Swamis and Yoga teachers" is it an argument? Of what? This is not ok and sorry to say intellectually pure. Do not take this personally even if you are “professional comparative linguist" I will not charge you by membership and I like to know the publications or detail. But I am suspecting that you are composing reality.
Nasz 11:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, your post is garbled and doesn't appear to make sense (similar to your edit in article space). If you can produce a coherent and sourced paragraph, I am sure it will be welcomed. dab (𒁳) 11:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
what you do not understand ? Nasz 12:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
your bit about "correlation". What is "Do you know any flaws in methodology or reasoning in related publications" supposed to mean? Apart from that, you seem to be making general observations on personal bias. never mind, maybe someone else here can figure out what you want. dab (𒁳) 14:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Basicaly it mean: Do you know what they screw up ? 06:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IE Languages Maps

late medieval distribution (after Islamic, Hungarian and Turkic expansions)
late medieval distribution (after Islamic, Hungarian and Turkic expansions)

I seriously doubt the accuracy of the maps posted in the last part of this article. Especially I doubt their accuracy in the problematic part of southeastern Europe. There are some things that I think are proven by documents and general linguists consensus. I'm afraid the last map, is not accurate at all. It is a known fact that in Transylvania Hungarian was spoken by a bit more than 20% of the people, yet on that map the whole area is shown in gray and there's a big text saying "HUNGARIAN" above it. Also Moldavia has never spoken Hungarian and when did parts from Poland ever speak Hungarian? I didn't remove it, but someone should either change it or remove it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.120.210.195 (talk • contribs).

Maps that show where languages are spoken cover minorities as well. Therefore, it's perfectly appropriate for a map to colour Transylvania as Hungarian-speaking. On the wall above the desk where I'm writing this, I have a map showing the distribution of the Uralic languages and guess what, all Transylvania is coloured in. As for Moldavia, there are Hungarian speakers there, the Csangó minority. CRCulver 15:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The Csangós were just in the Bukovina part of Moldova and got there in 1777. The map is from 1500. Then what about the rest of Moldova and southern Poland? When did a Hungarian minority EVER exist there? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.120.210.195 (talk • contribs).
I should mention that according to one likely historical scenario, Transylvania had a majority of Hungarian and Slavonic speakers before the Vlachs reached Transylvania after the turn of the first millennium. As these maps also show where languages have been spoken at any time in history, not necessary at the present time, it is doubly appropriate that Transylvania be highlighted for Hungarian. CRCulver 15:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The map shows southern Iberia speaking Arabic in 1500. Is this true? Was it ever true? (I had the uimperssxion that the peasantry stayed put throughout the Islamic period - they went right on speaking whatever they'd been speaking before; I also had the impression that the conquerors spoke Berber rather than Arabic). 03:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo (talk • contribs).
It was never true. Only elite minorities and small numbers of soldiers or colonizers ever spoke Arabic of Berber languages. The overall majority of the Iberian population remained the same and basically spoke the Mozarabic language, wich was a Romance language. Furthermore, that would refer to a period well before 1500. in 1500, for instance, Portugal had already reconquered the Algarve and terminated its Reconquista (in 1249), there were no Arabic speakers left, basically! And in the rest of the Peninsula the last Islamic State dissapeared in 1492 with the fall of Granada. The map need urgently to be corrected! The Ogre 16:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello and thanks for your comments. Actually, looking on the map, it shows Europe at 1500 AD. So not at any time in history. And I was not discussing the Rossler theory or its various opposite theories here. I was discussing language distribution in Eastern Europe in 1500 AD, not origin of people and languages at 1000 AD, when the supposed migration of the vlachs happened. So I did not try at all to bring up the controversial discussions of the migration or continuity. Not at all, as I said before I was discussing language distribution in Eastern Europe in 1500 AD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.120.210.195 (talk • contribs).
Hm, yes, the maps are rough sketches and should be improved. It is intended to give an overview of the changes between 500 AD and 1500 AD. Notable to this period are the Islamic, Turkic and Hungarian expansion, so that their effect may be over-emphasized a little bit. I hope to get around to this some time, or, of couse, you are cordially invited to improve them. dab (𒁳)

16:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

This map totally bothers me, and I'm thinking of removing it until is fixed. To begin with, I'm Bulgarian, and speak Bulgarian, which is a Slavic language. I look at that map and see what? Geographically, it indicated only a part of what is today western Bulgaria as Slavic-speaking and the rest is either Greek (which goes far too north-northeast), Turkish (in the plains of Thrace and the sub-Balkan valleys??) or Romanian (far too south). I'm not complaining about the lack of any reference to the Bulgarian linguistic influence in Romania, I can accept that, but according to that map, barely anyone spoke Bulgarian in Bulgaria, and the region around my native city was either Turkish- or Romanian-speaking, which has never been the case. Todor→Bozhinov 08:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
That's true. Also, nobody spoke Hungarian in Moldova (The Csango minority came in 1777 and stayed there for a very little amount of time, also they didn't make even 3% of the people)! And it's shown as fully speaking Hungarian! O.o Romanian language is drawn without any regards to the Danube, going too much South, in Bulgaria, yet the southern romanians (aromanians, megleno-romanians and istro-romanians) are not even shown on the map (from Greece, Albania, and Croatia). Hungarian was never spoken anywhere near the Black Sea, yet on this map it looks like they control all the northwestern coast, even a little down to the Crimean!
And by the way, Dbachmann, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, though I did some map edit in the past, I won't have time soon to do this. If someone else could, I'd be grateful. BTW Todor, I also thought of just removing it on sight. :) But if we could get an updated version of it, it would be very good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mirc mirc (talk • contribs) 11:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Problem with Diachronic Map of the Centum-Satem isogloss

Diachronic Map of the Centum-Satem isogloss
Diachronic Map of the Centum-Satem isogloss

This map is incorrect in what refers to the Iberian peninsula, since it reverses the geographical/linguistic areas. In Iberia the area presented in blue should be grey and the one in grey should be blue. In fact the presently in blue was globaly the area of the Iberian language and Tartessian language (non-Indo-European languages), while the one presently in gray was in fact the one with Celtic and Proto-Celtic languages. See, for instance, this detailed map of the Pre-Roman Peoples and Languages of Iberia. This needs to be corrected! The Ogre 16:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This is true, and has been noted before. Sorry I haven't fixed it yet. If you do it, I will thank you; otherwise, I'll see that I get round to it soon. dab (𒁳) 09:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I am still interested in the previous version: Where did it come from? Did it reflect a scholar hypothese on Lusitanians being pre-Celtic (or pre La Tène)? Rokus01 16:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, dab, changing the map is a bit out of my league... I'll wait for you! Rokus01, what do you mean? I think the map is just mistaken, in the sense that "it reverses the geographical/linguistic areas" in Iberia, and not just the Lusitanian area (also the Celtiberian, Galaican and other Celts). And the Lusitanians are definately (that's established) Indo-European. The question about them is if they were Proto-Celt, Pre-Celt or even related to the Italic group. The Ogre 14:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I was worried the map had been changed already. Rokus01 15:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with the post- Roman Empire and Migrations period map

post- Roman Empire and Migrations period distribution
post- Roman Empire and Migrations period distribution

This map is also wrong! In what regards Iberia, it present the southern part of it (as well as part of North Africa) as seaking a Germanic language! Why is this? Because of the Vandals move into southern Iberia and afterwards to North Africa? Well, First of all, the Vandals were only present for a very brief period in either Iberia or North Africa. In the firts case the Silingi Vandals were in Hispania Baetica (modern Andalusia), and the Hasdingi Vandals in Gallaecia (modern Galicia and NorthernPortugal), wich are not excatly the areas represented in the map. They were accompanied by the Sarmatian Alans who established themselves in Lusitania. All of these tribes were expeled by the Suevi (Quadi and Marcomanni, and including the Buri) and the Visigoths to North Africa, but not the area presented in the map - they went to the area of Ancient Carthage (in modern Tunisia), from were they moved again back to Europe and disbanded. Overall they just stayed for 20 years in Iberia (from 409 to 429; see Timeline of Portuguese history (Germanic Kingdoms)). And the main problem was that they were a minority! The huge majority of the population (basically of Ibero-Celtic origin or similar) already spoke romance (latin) dialects, that would give rise to the Iberian Romance languages. A greater impact would have been the Suevi (mainly in western Iberia, particularly in the north part) and the Visigoths (mainly in central Iberia), but these were also a minority that quickly began speakink the romance vernaculars. This map also needs to be changed. The Ogre 18:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

And in addittion to all that, how was the ex-Roman province Dacia speaking a slavic language?? This is beyond me. That area was speaking proto-romanian. Which is a totally non-slavic language. This map needs serious fixing too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.120.210.195 (talk) 10:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] South African use of indo-european languages...

The graphic IE_countries.png shows South Africa as having the majority of speakers speaking Indo European languages (presumably English or Afrikaans)... This claim is dubious since, although English is the main language of official communication (press, broader media, politics, commerce and business) in South Africa, there are 11 official languages in South Africa, and the majority of speakers have English as a second language, with one of the other 10 official languages as their mother tongue. So it is incorrect that South Africa is coloured in orange, its should be coloured in yellow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 41.240.101.41 (talk) 13:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

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