Talk:Individualism

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This article stresses the independent, irresponsible and self-sufficient individual. Of course, that's what most people think of when they hear the term 'individualism.' But perhaps something more could be said about views seeing the individual welfare as the main goal, and collective action as the best means to get there. For example, one could argue the individual's self-realization is enabled by collective actions like the providing of education and health care. This is not the same as collectivism, as the individual remains the main focus.Djadek 11:00, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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This viewpoint of collectivism works in a world of unbounded resources. But in our limited physical world, what one individual is given has to be taken from some other individual. If Health Care was unlimited, fine, but it isn't, and the "giving" of care necessarily means rationing and waiting lines, and the outright State allocation of super-scarce resources like organs (that is until the State harvests them for the Good of all - and don't say this is some sort of super scary notion, some have already posited that organ donation upon death NOT be voluntary) to those it deems more worthy; don't expect an organ if you're over 70 even if the State leaves with some ability to pay for a private procedure. Utilitarianism is decidedly anti-individual.

And please spare the irresponsible lead-ins. One can be accountable to themselves and not "responsible" to the whole. An a priori assumption that only Statist are responsible, and therefore are allowed their infractions upon individuals, is dizzyingly circular. But then again you can't get any good religion off the ground without circularity.

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Somebody please add information about this: What is the difference between individualism and egoism?

Juhtolv

To me, the word "egoism" has connotations of Marxist jargon. I don't think I've ever seen it used in any other context.--Bcrowell 19:32, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Just a thought 2 Derived from Solipsism? 3 Worship isn't the right word 4 Reference 5 Altruism and Individualism 6 Individuality redirects to individualism 7 Intangible, I invite you to explain yourself 8 quote 9 Origin of term; "autonomy" 10 Political versus Methodological

[edit] Just a thought

Individuality often referred to as being egotistic, self centered and conceited is of very important virtue in the finding of ones true nature and distinction from other human beings.

Individuality is also a basic human right in the fundamentals of ones ideology and beliefs. Without Individuality one is not allowed to act, think or believe on a independent level, thus making one a slave to the will of others idea's, philosophies, beliefs and core values.

The onset of a collective society detroys distinction, will, self-esteem and the very spirit of man, thus making him a mere puppet and piece of intellectual propery rather than free to make choices & decisions. Khaosinfire 00:05, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Derived from Solipsism?

Removed: "It may derive from a belief in "solipsism"..."

This is without explanation and seems like a big stretch (at least from my knowledge of the two subjects). It seems to suggest that the Individualist outlook began because of, in short, a serious belief in the epistemological uncertainty of other people being real people. Even with the word "may", I don't believe it belongs in the article, nevermind the first paragraph.

I hope everyone else sees my point! (Theboywonder 14:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Worship isn't the right word

I really don't like this: (except for other individualists, which are worshipped as "heroes") First the tone of this statement seems to be negative of individualism. Secondly, worship is a really strong word, revere might be better. Third, reverence and submission are not the same thing. --Sycomonkey 22:46, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

I've been thinking of removing The Virtue of Selfishness from the reference section. I don't feel it should be in an article about individualism when it promotes egoism instead. It would seem logical to only use references which directly relate to the subject and not to something else. But before I edit anything I'd like to hear some opinions on the matter. NotSuper 18:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there anyone that might have a problem with this removal? If there are no complaints then I'm going to remove it. I'll wait a few more days just in case, though. NotSuper 20:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I just removed it. NotSuper 07:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is misguiding the reader by saying "Individualism is, however, to be distinguished from egoism." Sure, the words themselves means two different things, but individualists oppose altruism --the ethical doctrine that says a person is morally obligated to serve others. If someone opposes altruism he's an individualist. Also the sentence you added is wrong: "Many individuals seek to free every single person from collective control. However, there are also many individualists that have no such intentions." Of course and individualists opposes "collective control." Collective control is the antithesis of individual control. RJII 16:14, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Individualists certainly can be altruists if they choose to do so; not all of them are interested in just their own self-interest. The important thing is that it's their CHOICE to help others. Also, opposing altruism does not always make one an individualist. Would you classify a thief or killer as an individualist just because they don't believe in helping others? No, that would be horribly wrong. Furthermore, many individualists don't want to free everyone from collective control--some (but not all) of these people are the ones that promote cultural relativism. An individualist merely believes in the importance of the individual and personal reliability. An egoist wants to promote their own interest. It's a pretty clear distinction, in my view. NotSuper 06:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

An altruist is not someone who simply believes in helping others (if we're talking ethics). He's someone who believes people have a moral obligation to help others, even if it's not in one's self-interest, or in one's detriment, to do so. The guy who coined the word "altruism" was August Comte, in order to label his ethical doctrine. Let me give you a quote from him: "[the] social point of view cannot tolerate the notion of rights, for such notion rests on individualism. We are born under a load of obligations of every kind, to our predecessors, to our successors, to our contemporaries. After our birth these obligations increase or accumulate, for it is some time before we can return any service.... This ["to live for others"], the definitive formula of human morality, gives a direct sanction exclusively to our instincts of benevolence, the common source of happiness and duty. [Man must serve] Humanity, whose we are entirely." There you have it, plainly stated opposition to "individualism." And, if someone wants people to be under "collective control" they are definitely not individualists. Individualism is all about individual control. Collective control could sacrifice the individual if doing so serves the "greater good" of the collective. RJII 15:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

There are many different interpretations of altruism. You can see that on the article for altruism on Wikipedia. As for the collective control issue, not all individualists care about that as long as THEY aren't under the control. These would be the selfish individualists--though not all selfish individualists feel this way, of course. They would not want people under collective control but would instead be indifferent to them. Like I've said, there are individualists (such as Robert Heinlein) that believed in cultural relativism. In addition, some ofthe heroes of the Romantic age are individualists yet sacrifice themselves to help others or the "greater good."

One definition of altruism is as follows: "Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness." It doesn't always have to be an obligation. In many ways the philosophy has changed over the years.

That's the colloquial definition of altruism. If you're talking ethics and political philosophy then "altruism" always refers to a moral obligation to help or serve others. RJII 20:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

As I've said, there are different interpretations of altruism. If you'd like to mention these in the article I'd have no problem with that. I'm referring to altruism as helping others without benefit to oneself. NotSuper 20:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

In any case, this section is for discussion of reference material for the article. This particular topic of interest requires its own category on the talk page.

Also, on the history page I notice that you claimed I was trying to say collectivism was compatible with individualism. This was never what I was saying at all. What I'm saying is that an individualist, one that cares only for himself, MAY not care what goes on in another society (one with collective control). NotSuper 19:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

"An individualist may be a conscientious "altruist": he is by no means hostile to, or aloof from society" ..what is that supposed to mean? Not being an altruist doesn't mean you're hostile or aloof from society --this is a false contrast from egoism. RJII 20:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Since I didn't write any of those passages (or modify them) I can't say for sure what the user who put them there was saying. I could give some theories on why they put that in there, but I'm not going to right now. But again, this section is for reference books. We should start a new section on the talk page for discussion on the subject.

In fact, I'll start a section now. NotSuper 23:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Altruism and Individualism

There has been some debate on whether individualism and altruism can go together or not. What does everyone think? Perhaps we can reach a comfortable consensus here. NotSuper 23:37, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

You could say something along the lines of "although individualism is incompatible with the classical definition of altruism (helping others out of moral obligation), it is not incompatible with choosing to help others."

[edit] Individuality redirects to individualism

Sometimes a distinction is made between individuality and individualism as doctrines. Can someone comment on this? Is it worth discussing in the article or making a disambiguation? Eric 15:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I can not conceive that Idividualism and Altruism can exist in a symbiosis existance. One means Self and the other refers to the helping of others and putting others before self. As such,both terms contradict the other.

[(User:Modify|True_Wayfinder)] 18:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intangible, I invite you to explain yourself

You reverted several of my edits without explanation, even though they are the exact same kinds of edits that you support in the collectivism article. For your convenience, here's a list:

1. My edits to the intro. The previous introduction was horribly POV, talking about such things as the "virtue of self-reliance", and it was entirely unreferenced. I thought you advocated the removal of unreferenced intro text, as you did with the text I added to the collectivism intro.
2. You reverted out of hand several edits I made for NPOV. Your version features the words "encroachment by the state", "transgressions by the majority" and "repugnant", where mine has "obligations imposed by social institutions", "wishes of the majority" and "irrelevant".
3. You restored an unreferenced paragraph I had removed. Granted, most of the article is unreferenced at this point, but most of the article is not the subject of dispute. If someone disputes an unreferenced paragraph, that paragraph has to go (or at least get an "unreferenced" tag).
4. Worst of all, you removed a perfectly legitimate criticism of individualism that was referenced as coming from Alexis de Tocqueville.

-- Nikodemos 00:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I left de Tocqueville in. He was not the first though to use the term "individualism" in the English language though, which I corrected. Intangible 00:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice you moved him up. I apologize. Right now I'm trying to apply my favourite method of dispute resolution: Make the uncontroversial edits first so that the dispute gets narrowed down as much as possible. -- Nikodemos 00:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

From the 1932 Dictionnaire de l'Académie française: individualism is "subordination of the general interest to the interest of the individual." I wonder what it says now... Intangible 01:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, we can add that definition to the intro... but why did you revert my grammar and spelling changes? -- Nikodemos 01:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] quote

From Swart: "Their major target was not so much the political doctrine of natural, inalienable rights of man as the economic doctrine of laissez faire...they did not criticize the XVIIIth-century philosophy for its equalitarian tenets (as was done by the conservative anti-individualists) but for not having coped with the increasing inequality between rich and poor." There are of course different types of egalitarianism... Intangible 01:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, here's the important part: "as was done by the conservative anti-individualists". That makes more sense. Thank you! I didn't realize what the part about egalitarianism was doing there - now I see that the source was trying to contrast the Saint-Simonians with the conservatives. -- Nikodemos 01:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of term; "autonomy"

I've read in Alain Renaut's Era of the Individual that the historian Marcel Gauchet located the first use of the term in an anonymous letter to a Saint-Simonean newspaper.

Speaking of Renaut's book, he draws a very interesting distinction between individualism and autonomy, and what he sees as the modern conflation of the two ideas. I don't know where to put in a note about this, though.--WadeMcR 21:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political versus Methodological

"For some political individualists, who hold a view known as methodological individualism, the word "society" can never refer to anything more than a very large collection of individuals."

There is something wrong here. It seems to me that all pol indivs would be method indivs. But method indiv is an approach to social analysis which doesn't imply pol indiv. You can use method indiv to deduce collective social structures.

- Pepper 150.203.227.130 08:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)