Talk:Ilok

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[edit] Disambiguation

This should probably be a disambiguation page. iLok is also a brand of dongle. *shivers* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.165.1.189 (talk • contribs) 03:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Újlaki or Iločki

Hi PANONIAN!

As far as I know the Újlakis were a branch of the Hédervári clan and they were not Croatian. So Croatians may name them Ilocki, but Újlaki might be better. 84.2.210.61 13:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be good to find the etymology of this. We already have this issue with several of the "southern" nobility and royalty of the Kingdom of Hungary. --Joy [shallot] 19:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have recently changed names in that article: Lackfi and Garai.

The ancestor of the Hédervári or Héder clan was a German knight (Heinrich) who immigrated Hungary during Géza II.'s reign. The Héderváris were the ancestors of the Újlakis through the Konts. Most of their possesions were in Vas county. (main reference: Pallas Nagy lexikona - internet edition http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/egyeb/lexikon/pallas/html/)81.183.150.182 07:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

No matter of their origin they became Croats later. Lovro Iločki, the son of Nikola, had Croatian (Slavic) name. Also, the official language of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary was not Hungarian, but Latin, thus, if they were Croats their names should be either in Croatian either in Latin. PANONIAN (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Ok, you said they become Croats. Source it! Lovro (croat)=Lőrinc (hung)= Lawrence (eng.) It is a simple translation of the name. The name itself has a Latin origin. By the way people do not give names in official languages. Do you think people gave Latin names to their babies?

There were plenty of Croatian aristocratic families in medieval Hungary, but Újlakis and Garais were accidentaly Hungarians. I do not understand why you stick to their Croatian form of names.

Ok, I admit that I do not know much about these families, I will see to search for more information about this. However, since this is Croatia-related article, these families should be listed by same names as they were listed in this article: List of rulers of Croatia. PANONIAN (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, in this case we should change all Zrinksis and Frakopans etc. to Zrínyi and Frangepán when they are mentioned in a Hungary-related article. I think this practice would only cause confusion. I suggest we add to List of rulers of Croatia a sentence: All names appear in Croatian version or something.81.183.151.131 06:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you should first settle this issue in "List of rulers of Croatia" article and then what ever is agreed there, we can use in other articles. By the way, it was only my assumption that Iločki and Gorjanski were Croats because of their Croatian names. It was usual that Slavic names are translated in Hungarian, not Hungarian in Slavic, but if they were Hungarians, it might be an exception from this. PANONIAN (talk) 14:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

2. proposed addition

- Miklós Újlaki/Nikola Ilocki was also king of Bosnia

- his son as duke of Syrmia? Do you have any references sources in this question. As far as I know he only bore the title 'dux', as a royal prince. 81.183.150.191 12:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the source which claim that Lovro Iločki was a duke of Syrmia, it is this book: Friedrich Wilhelm von Taube, Historische und geographische Beschreibung des Königreiches SLAVONIEN und des Herzogthumes SIRMIEN, sowohl nach ihrer natürlichen Beschaffenheit, als auch nach ihrer iBigen Verfassung und neuen Einrichtung in kirlichen, bürgerlichen und militarichen Dingen I, II, III Bücher, Leipzig, 1777, 1778. PANONIAN (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I found some other references where he also mention as Duke of Syrmia, though they were all old. Later references never mention this. In fact noble princely title appeared in Hungary only in the 20th century.81.183.151.131 06:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

My source say that he took for himself this title, but he was not officially recognized as such, thus it might be a reason why he is not mentioned with this title in other sources. PANONIAN (talk) 13:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I personally prefer to use the names of people according to origin, while places according to current official names. 81.183.151.131 06:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, I'll make my suggestion in "List of rulers of Croatia" article to deal a general rule.

It seems nobody interested in this question in the "List of rulers of Croatia". So I reverse translated Hungarian names to Hungarian. Bye, 81.183.150.84 12:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)